The Great Brian Anderson Debacle

[almagest]

WHAT point?

 

"But we win games!"

"But there are other bad managers, too!"

"But... no! You're just WRONG!"

"But... he won us a WS 4 years ago!"

 

Please tell me how any of that is relevant, much less a valid POINT.

 

I mean, come on, it's just ignorant. As I said earlier, winning doesn't always mean you played it right. That's really just common sense.

Isn't winning the overall goal, though? We've won 83, 99, 90, 72, and 89 games during the regular season with Ozzie as manager. We've outperformed expectations every year but 2007, when the predictions were dead on, and 2004 (IIRC, couldn't find data), when everyone was hurt. If you want to say that has nothing to do with the quality of a manager, that's fine. Maybe it doesn't, but then how in the world would you judge a manager? Anecdotal evidence from a select few games you remember?

 

Overall, the White Sox have been successful, so Ozzie is going to be the manager. If we have a bad season or two, he'll be gone. That's how it works.

 

Also, you do really need to stop with the personal attacks, if you want to keep posting here. It's REALLY hard to get banned from Soxtalk, from what I've seen, but it can happen. We're all on the same side, and while you do have some valid points, so do other posters.

 

Remember: , not .

[Lemon_44]

I believe every word. Seriously, it doesn't take a genius to walk Justin Morneau with 2 outs and a first base open with a small lead. THAT'S stupid. It doesn't take a genius to put your best defender in the game in the 9th with a small lead. It doesn't take a genius to pinch run for a slow man on 2nd with 2 outs and the game on the line. It doesn't take a genius to pull a struggling pitcher with nothing left when you're barely ahead.

 

If you're telling me you couldn't figure out how to do this stuff yourself, I feel bad for you.

 

 

 

 

LOL how childish. Again I stand corrected. Another lazy poster with no valid point to make.

there's alot more to it than what you see from your couch.Maybe the bullpen has been burned out or some guys aren't 100%. You don't manage every game like it's game 7 of the world series. That's what Larry Bowa's problem was.

I wouldn't walk Morneau with 1st base open and a small lead.Make him earn it. How about showing some confidence in your pitcher to get the guy out. Besides why would put the potential winning/tying run on base?

[Reddy]

So is the giant black box in your sig.

i can't believe i haven't changed it since 163. i really can't. i'm THAT f***ing lazy.

[Dick Allen]

A guy in Boston, Nick Carfardo, of the Boston Globe, ranked the managers. Now remember he had scouts, front office guys, coaches and players helping him so they obviously know more than anyone of us and this has to be gospel. Hey, at least Ozzie is an upgrade from Jerry Manuel.

 

In March 2008, with the help of scouts, front office people, players, and coaches, this reporter rated the managers 1-30. Here's a revised list, with previous rank in parentheses.

 

 

1. Tony La Russa, Cardinals: One of the best player evaluators, he amazingly keeps his team in the race and always maximizes performance. His body of work and current success put him in the top spot (4).

 

2. Terry Francona, Red Sox: Two championships in five years, and in contention again. Scores high with communication (3).

 

3. Jim Leyland, Tigers: Made a lot of roster changes after a disappointing '08, but he has the Tigers performing at a high level (1).

 

4. Bobby Cox, Braves: Probably the most respected manager in the game by his players. A fundamentally sound skipper (2).

 

5. Joe Torre, Dodgers: Tough times with the Manny Ramírez situation, but he can still take adversity and turn it into a positive (5).

 

6. Mike Scioscia, Angels: Survived a massive list of injuries to his pitching staff, and free agent losses like Mark Teixeira and Frankie Rodriguez. His teams are always well-prepared (6).

 

7. Charlie Manuel, Phillies: Easy does it, but he does it. Somehow wins with an average pitching staff. Great teacher of hitting (12).

 

8. Joe Maddon, Rays: State-of-the-art manager. Smart, innovative, and one of the great communicators (21).

 

9. Lou Piniella, Cubs: Facing adversity with injuries and underperforming key players. Hasn't changed his style; master motivator (10).

 

10. Dusty Baker, Reds: Experienced motivator whom players adore. Has the ability to minimize tough situations, as he did for many years managing Barry Bonds in San Francisco (11).

 

11. Bruce Bochy, Giants: Gets a lot of respect for his in-game maneuvers, knowledge of the game, and general demeanor (7).

 

12. Ron Gardenhire, Twins: Has a system that emphasizes fundamentals and personal responsibility. Players seem to flourish in the environment he creates (13).

 

13. Ken Macha, Brewers: Had a solid performance with the A's and has the Brewers near the top in NL Central with a subpar pitching staff (NA).

 

14. Cito Gaston, Blue Jays: Yep, the Jays are fading, but the two-time World Series winner has done a terrific job through the injuries and a thin roster (NA).

 

15. Joe Girardi, Yankees: The guy with the highest payroll always has the most to prove. Our panel was impressed with how he took a bad early situation and has regrouped (19).

 

16. Ozzie Guillen, White Sox: Emotional leader has had to deal with a diverse roster of young and old. Had the high of a championship in 2005, the in-between of last season's early playoff exit, and so far a challenging season with underachieving pitching staff (14).

 

17. Ron Washington, Rangers: Has advanced from his early days, when he was overwhelmed. An improving roster and farm system helps, and he does a good job juggling lineups and keeping players fresh (28).

 

18. Jerry Manuel, Mets: Runs the team with a nice, steady hand, but he'll always be judged by whether the Mets make the playoffs, and last year that didn't happen. Not the best tactician in the game or with his bullpen (NA).

 

19. Trey Hillman, Royals: Like Washington, he has an emerging roster and can teach young players. Has transformed the Royals from hapless to hopeful (29).

 

20.Eric Wedge, Indians: Tough going since winning Manager of the Year in '07. GM Mark Shapiro has taken responsibility for most of the downturn, but Wedge bears some blame (8).

 

21. Bud Black, Padres: To have this team around .500 after the misery of '08, and with a challenging roster, Black deserves credit for keeping it together (17).

 

22. Fredi Gonzalez, Marlins: Loves the teaching aspect, but the rap is he doesn't manage the game well. Works well with younger players (27).

 

23. John Russell, Pirates: Got his rookie season out of the way and is now considered far more savvy in his second season. Younger players are progressing and the Pirates seem less pathetic (30).

 

24. Dave Trembley, Orioles: Good communicator and motivator. The recall of catcher Matt Wieters "might make him smarter" according to one American League GM (26).

 

25. Bob Geren, A's: Poor Geren got a new offense, but injuries have decimated this team again. Hard to judge him when the A's constantly change direction (25).

 

26. Cecil Cooper, Astros: Has the rap, true or not, that he throws players under the bus in the media and never fully has their trust. On the positive side, he emphasizes discipline (24).

 

27. Manny Acta, Nationals: Trying to juggle a young rotation, a poor bullpen, and a good lineup in a poor environment (18).

 

28. Don Wakamatsu, Mariners: Has done a good job changing the culture and making players accountable. Solid during a game, but the sample size is small (NA).

 

29. A.J. Hinch, Diamondbacks: Former farm director was a controversial selection to replace Bob Melvin because he's never managed. The hope is his knowledge of the young players will lead to success (NA).

 

30. Jim Tracy, Rockies: A 562-572 record with the Dodgers and Pirates isn't stellar, but he is a good, solid manager who can run a game. Replaced the fired Clint Hurdle, who went 18-28 and had lost the team (NA).

 

[Lemon_44]

to me, the most overrated guys on that list are LaRussa, Leyland, and Piniella(and i like Piniella). Gardenhire the most underated.

Edited June 3, 2009 by Lemon_44

[scenario]

to me, the most overrated guys on that list are LaRussa, Leyland, and Piniella(and i like Piniella). Gardenhire the most underated.

 

Funny thing is that if you go to each of the teams fan boards you will find at least one poster who thinks everything the manager does is stupid, how they totally mismanage the team, and deserve to be fired.

 

And in general...

 

Twins boards are absolutely brutal on Gardenhire.

 

Tigers boards are even worse on Leyland. (How he's senile, forgotten how to manage, who his 'love children' are, etc.)

 

LOL.

 

Some fans just love to hate their teams' managers.

Edited June 3, 2009 by scenario

[chisox2334]

here was an unusually large group of reporters at White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen's pre-game session.

 

Guillen was surprised at the large gathering but had plenty to say after one reporter asked about Dewayne Wise, who is struggling since coming off the disabled list Friday.

 

"If they don't like it, it's not my problem," Guillen said in response to media and fans who questioned his decision to play Wise over Brian Anderson.

 

Guillen, looking at the crowd around him, explained that Wise played in only two games on a rehab assignment before getting activated to take Carlos Quentin's spot and that everyone should show more patience with Wise.

 

Guillen said it would make no sense to not play Wise after activating him, adding he held no grudges against Anderson.

 

In other news, Guillen said Jose Contreras will stay after he pitches Monday in a doubleheader against Detroit. He added there are no plans yet for a six-man rotation.

 

Quentin should be ready to come off the DL on June 10.

[fathom]

I have no confidence that the Sox will handle the Contreras situation properly.

[TitoMB345]

I have no confidence that the Sox will handle the Contreras situation properly.

 

Agreed. I'm sure somehow they'll find a way to take Clayton out and insert Jose.

[Kyyle23]

here was an unusually large group of reporters at White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen's pre-game session.

 

Guillen was surprised at the large gathering but had plenty to say after one reporter asked about Dewayne Wise, who is struggling since coming off the disabled list Friday.

 

"If they don't like it, it's not my problem," Guillen said in response to media and fans who questioned his decision to play Wise over Brian Anderson.

 

Guillen, looking at the crowd around him, explained that Wise played in only two games on a rehab assignment before getting activated to take Carlos Quentin's spot and that everyone should show more patience with Wise.

 

Guillen said it would make no sense to not play Wise after activating him, adding he held no grudges against Anderson.

 

In other news, Guillen said Jose Contreras will stay after he pitches Monday in a doubleheader against Detroit. He added there are no plans yet for a six-man rotation.

 

Quentin should be ready to come off the DL on June 10.

 

Cite your sources

 

[SI1020]

in my short time here, that may be one of the funnier things i have read.

 

that's kind of like saying Tiger Woods really isn't all that good because he misses alot of fairways off the tee.Nevermind the fact that he wins all the time, he needs to straighten out that driver.

Ozzie Guillen is not the Tiger Woods of baseball managers. The thing is White Sox fans starved a winner for longer than the average persons lifetime, finally cashed in with Ozzie at the helm. I could name a few Sox managers that I believed to be superior to Ozzie Guillen, and that is sacreligious to some I suppose. Ozzie has his strengths as a person and as a manager. It shouldn't be a problem if some of us long time Sox fans don't think he is the best thing since sliced bread. Ozzie as a motivator I like. Ozzie's philosophy on how to play the game I like. Ozzie's lineups and game day moves often leave me dazed and confused. One more thing and this is not directed at you, just a general comment. I find the Pythagorean wins formula to be one of the more worthless of the newer Saber stats that many are in awe of.

[Heads22]

from whitesox.com

 

Ozzie defends Wise, decisions

White Sox manager responds to questions about lineup

 

 

By Scott Merkin / MLB.com

 

06/03/09 9:15 PM ET

 

CHICAGO -- White Sox fans were angered by Tuesday night's 5-0 loss to the A's, another setback suffered against an inexperienced pitcher, in Vin Mazzaro, whom the South Siders had faced for the first time.

 

That's the message Ozzie Guillen took away from the e-mails filling his inbox on Wednesday afternoon. The White Sox manager wasn't exactly thrilled with some of the comments he read, especially those critical of Dewayne Wise playing three straight games in center field, with Brian Anderson and his .269 average on the bench.

 

And in typical no-holds-barred Guillen fashion, he didn't keep those emotions bottled up inside.

 

"I'm tired, really tired, of fans and media talking about Wise anymore," Guillen said during his pregame chat with the media, building his response up to its zenith of annoyance. "He played because I wanted him to play. He played because I made the stinking lineup.

 

"If they don't like it, that's not my problem. There's only one guy I have to tell why I play Wise: [general manager] Kenny Williams. That's it. Every time I read it, all of the sudden they're in love with Brian Anderson."

 

Before Guillen tackled the whole issue concerning his relationship with Anderson, who started in center field Wednesday against Oakland southpaw Josh Outman, he explained the situation with Wise. If not for the injury to Carlos Quentin, Wise would have been down with Triple-A Charlotte for a full week on his injury rehab assignment after being out since April 13 with a separated right shoulder.

 

Instead, Wise returned to the White Sox after 12 at-bats over three Minor League games, and he still is getting his swing back together. Guillen made this point while also stridently answering the accusations that he holds some sort of ill will toward Anderson.

 

"Some people tell me I hate Brian, I've got something against Brian," Guillen said. "Please. I give [Wise] at-bats because he needs it and I want to get him in hitting shape the best I can, the quickest I can. We played [Zack] Greinke, and I think that man was in the lineup and we won.

 

"It's amazing how people misunderstand when they want to try to be a manager. They try to make lineups. They try to do everything. They don't know what happens behind the scenes. I played this kid because he needed some at-bats.

 

"Brian is playing today," Guillen said. "If Brian goes 0-for-4, please send me a text. And all you guys who ever talked about it today, why we played Brian Anderson today -- it should be Wise -- I do it for a reason. It's my problem. It's not anybody else's problem why he plays. I take full responsibility [for] playing him because I'm the one who made the lineup."

 

The White Sox were shut out for a Major League-high seventh time on Tuesday. The offense, which made great strides during last week's 5-1 road trip, also has been held to one run on seven occasions and two runs in five other games.

 

That paltry output, in Guillen's estimation, has to do with the amount of strikeouts the White Sox have as a team, with their 332 placing them seventh from the top in the American League. Guillen does not believe Wise's struggles have anything to do with the team's offensive woes, and for those critics who do, Guillen offered up an animated suggestion on Wednesday as to how they could bypass that problem.

 

"If they don't like it when Wise comes to hit, turn the TV off," Guillen said. "Turn the radio off or turn around and start walking towards the concession stands. They don't have to watch him hit."

[lostfan]

I find the Pythagorean wins formula to be one of the more worthless of the newer Saber stats that many are in awe of.

I was gonna start a thread about how I hated BABIP (for hitters) a month or so ago.

[scenario]

I find the Pythagorean wins formula to be one of the more worthless of the newer Saber stats that many are in awe of.

 

Why?

 

[Reddy]

from whitesox.com

i mean, he literally said that the only reason he plays wise is because he likes him, wants him to play, and wants him to get at bats. absolutely NO baseball-related reason.

 

lol.

Edited June 4, 2009 by Reddy

[TitoMB345]

i mean, he literally said that the only reason he plays wise is because he likes him, wants him to play, and wants him to get at bats. absolutely NO baseball-related reason.

 

lol.

Yeah, he pretty much just summed up exactly why I hate him. Thanks for helping me out, Oz!

[ThunderBolt]

Brian Anderson needs to be traded. It's the best for everyone. i'll miss him, but it's our only option. Ozzie wants to live and die with Wise then fine, just give BA a shot to make something out of his talent.

[greg775]

"If they don't like it when Wise comes to hit, turn the TV off," Guillen said. "Turn the radio off or turn around and start walking towards the concession stands. They don't have to watch him hit."

 

That's a hilarious quote. Good stuff, Oz. I like the way he responds to angry fans' emails.

 

[southsideirish71]

i mean, he literally said that the only reason he plays wise is because he likes him, wants him to play, and wants him to get at bats. absolutely NO baseball-related reason.

 

lol.

 

"I like Brian. Some people tell me I hate Brian, I have something against Brian. Please, I give [Wise] at-bats because he needs it and I want to get him in hitting shape the best I can, the quickest I can."

 

 

This is retarded. Getting a career minor leaguer who has sucked for most of his career ABs because you are getting him into hitting shape is laughable.

[BearSox]

In all fairness, after BA's first two AB's today, I can't blame Ozzie for putting Wise in.

[Heads22]

I'll say Lillibridge could have been more effective than Wise has been at the plate since coming back. At least he can take a pitch. Wise just goes golfing at the plate.

[StrangeSox]

Was there any reason given for pulling Anderson from the game yesterday?

[StrangeSox]

Why?

 

It doesn't seem to actually predict anything. Whenever its off, you just throw in the "manager" fudge factor.

[Dick Allen]

Was there any reason given for pulling Anderson from the game yesterday?

I think he was either hurt or sick. When he was standing on second he hunched over for a while.

[lostfan]

I think he was either hurt or sick. When he was standing on second he hunched over for a while.

He was dizzy or lightheaded, something like that.