The Great Brian Anderson Debacle

[jenksycat]

What you're not getting is that I'm not proposing a better idea or what should be done. I'd just appreciate it if instead of trying to argue around facts and make up s*** that someone could just ACKNOWLEDGE that what I'm saying about Ozzie's constant mismanagement is true. We don't need to talk a bout who we should get instead, who's better, what a better situation is, etc. because that's not what I'm talking about. As usual, you as a defender are bringing up irrelevant points. ALL I'M SAYING is that Ozzie is a bad in-game manager, and THAT'S IT; not who is better, not comparisons to other managers, no proposing a situation, just laying out a small fact. THAT'S ALL.

 

/End rant. Continue your denial and arguing around the point as Im sure you will.

 

So what the f*** IS your point then? Congrats you stated your opinion and then don't want to talk about anything else related to it. Start a twitter account if that's what you want to do.

[RockRaines]

He's referring to me. I'm not saying Ozzie shouldn't ever be commended, I'm just fed up with people who have to change the subject, defend Ozzie pointlessly and can't just ADMIT that Ozzie makes a lot of really COLOSSAL f***ups.

He makes a few mistakes, but thats the only time YOU notice Ozzie and therefor you think that all he does is make mistakes. Its pretty clear in both your arguments and your lack of supporting facts. It would probably be more effective just to put your thoughts on Ozzie in your signature and leave it at that....wait you already have that, forget it.

[TitoMB345]

He's referring to me. I'm not saying Ozzie shouldn't ever be commended, I'm just fed up with people who have to change the subject, defend Ozzie pointlessly and can't just ADMIT that Ozzie makes a lot of really COLOSSAL f***ups.

I know, I'm on your side. I think Ozzie really isn't a good manager. But there's no way hes to blame for every loss, and on the same token, he doesn't deserve all the credit for the wins either.

 

To me, it's like Mike Sherman's last two years in Green Bay. He went 12-4, then followed it up with a 4-12 season. He was a horrible, horrible coach for both the years, but we had a good enough team to overcome it in the 12-4 one. Just because you have a bad manager doesn't mean you're going to lose.

[almagest]

Wise isn't as bad as I thought he'd be out there but he sure does a fine job of making his fielding of routine fly balls look pretty.

Wise is pretty rough out there and at some point he's going to misplay a ball in a bad situation and cost us at least a couple of runs. He's better than Podsednik, though.

 

I do wonder why we don't give BA a chance to play everyday and finally see what we have with him, since he's currently better defensively than Wise, at least equal on offense, is younger, and has a higher ceiling. Eventually it'll shake out though. Like other people have said in this thread; it's really not worth worrying about. Either Ozzie is incredibly stubborn and short-sighted, in which case there's nothing anyone can do anyway, or he knows something about Anderson we don't.

 

Also these BA threads are absolutely hilarious. Great entertainment for down time at work. Thanks guys!

[The Ginger Kid]

Too bad we traded Sweeny, because the battle lines between BA vs RS would've been even more contentious. They're both so dreamy.

[TheBigHurt]

He makes a few mistakes, but thats the only time YOU notice Ozzie and therefor you think that all he does is make mistakes. Its pretty clear in both your arguments and your lack of supporting facts. It would probably be more effective just to put your thoughts on Ozzie in your signature and leave it at that....wait you already have that, forget it.

 

You're first sentence is entirely incorrect. Apparently, since I'm adamant about my loathing of Ozzie's mismanagement, that must mean I never appreciate anything good he does. That's what you think? That's incorrect. I'm sorry if my disapproval outweighs my approval. In your eyes every manager's good moves make him a great manager no matter HOW stupid his managing is overall?

 

 

I know, I'm on your side. I think Ozzie really isn't a good manager. But there's no way hes to blame for every loss, and on the same token, he doesn't deserve all the credit for the wins either.

 

To me, it's like Mike Sherman's last two years in Green Bay. He went 12-4, then followed it up with a 4-12 season. He was a horrible, horrible coach for both the years, but we had a good enough team to overcome it in the 12-4 one. Just because you have a bad manager doesn't mean you're going to lose.

 

I never said that. People like to put words in other people's mouths. People are assuming I think Ozzie is to blame for everything. Not true. It's just really frustrating to constantly see f***ups that even I as a casual baseball fan could have done better. And it's not the slightest bit occasional; it happens ALL THE TIME.

 

A good point. That helps back me up even further. A winning record doesn't make the manager/coach good, and this team is a prime example.

[The Ginger Kid]

It's just really frustrating to constantly see f***ups that even I as a casual baseball fan could have done better. And it's not the slightest bit occasional; it happens ALL THE TIME.

 

i have to assume you're just really frustrated and that you don't honestly believe this. I've got nothing against second-guessing and criticizing a manager, I enjoy it! But I'm not delusional enough to think I can do better.

[southsider2k5]

He's referring to me. I'm not saying Ozzie shouldn't ever be detracted, I'm just fed up with people who have to change the subject, attack Ozzie pointlessly and can't just ADMIT that Ozzie makes a lot of really COLOSSAL achievements.

 

 

Edited for the other point of view.

[TheBigHurt]

i have to assume you're just really frustrated and that you don't honestly believe this. I've got nothing against second-guessing and criticizing a manager, I enjoy it! But I'm not delusional enough to think I can do better.

 

I believe every word. Seriously, it doesn't take a genius to walk Justin Morneau with 2 outs and a first base open with a small lead. THAT'S stupid. It doesn't take a genius to put your best defender in the game in the 9th with a small lead. It doesn't take a genius to pinch run for a slow man on 2nd with 2 outs and the game on the line. It doesn't take a genius to pull a struggling pitcher with nothing left when you're barely ahead.

 

If you're telling me you couldn't figure out how to do this stuff yourself, I feel bad for you.

 

 

Edited for the other point of view.

 

LOL how childish. Again I stand corrected. Another lazy poster with no valid point to make.

[southsider2k5]

What you're not getting is that I'm not proposing a better idea or what should be done. I'd just appreciate it if instead of trying to argue around facts and make up s*** that someone could just ACKNOWLEDGE that what I'm saying about Ozzie's constant mismanagement is true. We don't need to talk a bout who we should get instead, who's better, what a better situation is, etc. because that's not what I'm talking about. As usual, you as a defender are bringing up irrelevant points. ALL I'M SAYING is that Ozzie is a bad in-game manager, and THAT'S IT; not who is better, not comparisons to other managers, no proposing a situation, just laying out a small fact. THAT'S ALL.

 

/End rant. Continue your denial and arguing around the point as Im sure you will.

 

See by burying your head in the sand to any point but your own that points other than your own ARE relevant. How many titles/divisions/games a manager wins IS an important metric, especially when compared to how many games they should have won with the teams they had. It is really easy to make up key factors that you see as relevant, while ignoring the fact that at the end of the day, a managers final judgement of worth is made on how many games they win. No one gives a s*** about someone who makes the "right" calls about platoon players, but wins 65 games. It is an arbitrary argument that the only standards for judgements are your own. Gee I wonder how the results of that will turn out. If he was THAT bad of an in-game manager, the Sox wouldn't constantly our perform what the statistical analysis of his team shows they would show do. Winning games IS EXACTLY what good in-game managers do. I don't know how much more relevant you can get to being a good manager than winning the damned games.

[BigSqwert]

At this rate BA might get as many posts as Jake Peavy.

[southsider2k5]

LOL how childish. Again I stand corrected. Another lazy poster with no valid point to make.

 

I actually agree 100%. I am glad you got the point that a statement like that is lazy, childish, and makes no valid point. Maybe next time you could leave it out of your post.

[VAfan]

I was thinking of starting a thread like this when I signed on today, and lo and behold, here it is! I must add my voice to the original poster's. Starting DeWayne Wise over Brian Anderson is a baseball crime. There is NO possible argument for making that move. Anderson is a better hitter against right handed pitchers, and against lefties. He's clearly a vastly better outfielder. And I even think he's a better base runner, who could steal a fair amount if they would play him.

 

Ozzie's infatuation with Wise reminds me of the way he loved Timo Perez in 2005. Perez couldn't hit a lick, but when first Carl Everett tweaked his hammy and was out for 5 games, then Scott Podsednik went on the DL, Perez got regular playing time. Our offense was horrible, and Cleveland started getting closer and closer and closer. Fortunately, those guys came back in time, we got some heroics from Joe Crede, and we righted the ship. Who was the guy in Ozzie's doghouse then? Ross Gload. Ross actually got sent down to AAA when those guys were out, where he proceeded to go 45 for 107, with 24 runs, 24 RBI, 7 HRs, 14 2Bs. Meanwhile, Timo put up Ofers day after day.

 

The sad fact of the present situation is that it looked to me like Brian Anderson was proving himself capable of being the everyday CF we've been looking for since we let Rowand go. The key is that he's taking the BB now. He's already walked more than he did last year. That means he's not swinging at the breaking ball out of the zone. Now the balls BA swings at he can do something with. And once he's more comfortable there, I think his power will finally come b/c he'll be able to swing with more authority.

 

Think of it this way. Between Fields, Anderson, and Getz, who do you think has a future at his position with the White Sox? To me the answer is clearly Brian Anderson. Getz should give way to Beckham, while Fields should give way to Viciedo. But Anderson really could be the answer in CF.

 

The only guy who can fix this is Kenny Williams. He has to dump Wise off the team. Don't give Ozzie the choice.

[RockRaines]

You're first sentence is entirely incorrect. Apparently, since I'm adamant about my loathing of Ozzie's mismanagement, that must mean I never appreciate anything good he does. That's what you think? That's incorrect. I'm sorry if my disapproval outweighs my approval. In your eyes every manager's good moves make him a great manager no matter HOW stupid his managing is overall?

No, I am just realistic to know that there are zero managers that have ever managed a professional baseball team that didnt make mistakes. ZERO. Ozzie will make mistakes but on the whole he is a good player's manager who gets more out of his team than most expect. He makes mistakes all the time, but every other manager in the game makes just as many if not more than Ozzie.

 

And to insinuate that YOU could do a better job pretty much ruins any credibility you may have had on the subject. You are a guy leisurely watching baseball from your couch, there are managers of HS, college and minor league teams that are better at their job than you would be and they arent even close to as good as Ozzie.

[TheBigHurt]

No, I am just realistic to know that there are zero managers that have ever managed a professional baseball team that didnt make mistakes. ZERO. Ozzie will make mistakes but on the whole he is a good player's manager who gets more out of his team than most expect. He makes mistakes all the time, but every other manager in the game makes just as many if not more than Ozzie.

 

And to insinuate that YOU could do a better job pretty much ruins any credibility you may have had on the subject. You are a guy leisurely watching baseball from your couch, there are managers of HS, college and minor league teams that are better at their job than you would be and they arent even close to as good as Ozzie.

 

I understand that. I'm just saying there's no excuses for some of the stupid s*** he does, including the reason this thread was created. I have ALWAYS said I liked Ozzie's attitude, but you have to draw a line somewhere. I think his mis managing of Pods some years ago was where I really started to realize that Ozzie didn't have a clue.

 

I'm NOT saying I would be a better manager, I'm just saying that it takes either an idiot or a man with an agenda to not put BA out in CF in the 9th of a close game or to not call for Morneau to be walked in that situation (and again, laugh all you want, this s*** happens ALL THE TIME with him). Come on, I know YOU would be smart enough to not make those mistakes as I would have been, Rock.

[Steve9347]

At this rate BA might get as many posts as Jake Peavy.

[TheBigHurt]

See by burying your head in the sand to any point but your own that points other than your own ARE relevant.

 

WHAT point?

 

"But we win games!"

"But there are other bad managers, too!"

"But... no! You're just WRONG!"

"But... he won us a WS 4 years ago!"

 

Please tell me how any of that is relevant, much less a valid POINT.

 

I mean, come on, it's just ignorant. As I said earlier, winning doesn't always mean you played it right. That's really just common sense.

[The Ginger Kid]

anybody watch that Washington victory over Florida in women's softball? It was actually a ton of fun to watch, who knew?

[The Ginger Kid]

I believe every word.

 

 

I'm NOT saying I would be a better manager

[santo=dorf]

SS2k5, is it OK if I link a thread I started when Ozzie said BA's spot wasn't guaranteed when Wise came back and some people laughed at the idea that Ozzie has some kind of bias against Brian?

 

[southsider2k5]

WHAT point?

 

"But we win games!"

"But there are other bad managers, too!"

"But... no! You're just WRONG!"

"But... he won us a WS 4 years ago!"

 

Please tell me how any of that is relevant, much less a valid POINT.

 

I mean, come on, it's just ignorant. As I said earlier, winning doesn't always mean you played it right. That's really just common sense.

 

No, ignorant is getting right into name calling because you don't accept someone else's point.

 

Again the point is very simple. If Ozzie really were THAT bad of an in-game manager, the results would show on the final score. His teams would not constantly out perform their statistical expectations year in and year out. This isn't about just one game, or one player, like you make it out to be. I have years of results to back up my hypothesis. Going back and looking at the pythagaron results, the Sox play better than their expectations just about every single year. If Ozzie were nearly as stupid as you think as an in-game manager, the results would flow through into the wins and losses. It would be impossible for them not to. The wins and losses versus expected are 180 degrees different than what they should be if your theory were right. Wins and losses are an incredibly valid point because they are the ultimate result of decisions you make as a manager.

 

Now go ahead and keep name calling and not getting my point, like you have been everyone else's for pages now...

[southsider2k5]

SS2k5, is it OK if I link a thread I started when Ozzie said BA's spot wasn't guaranteed when Wise came back and some people laughed at the idea that Ozzie has some kind of bias against Brian?

 

Go ahead, pull it out of the favorites. Any other timely "I told you so's" in there that are relevant?

[NorthSideSox72]

WHAT point?

 

"But we win games!"

"But there are other bad managers, too!"

"But... no! You're just WRONG!"

"But... he won us a WS 4 years ago!"

 

Please tell me how any of that is relevant, much less a valid POINT.

 

I mean, come on, it's just ignorant. As I said earlier, winning doesn't always mean you played it right. That's really just common sense.

Still calling people ignorant, still getting bent out of shape, still using straw man arguments, still dismissing people who are actually giving you evidence.

 

You keep pushing the ad hominem stuff at other posters, calling them ignorant. This is your chance to stop.

 

 

[Reddy]

this thread is enormous.

[NorthSideSox72]

this thread is enormous.

So is the giant black box in your sig.