How did Nate McLouth end up in Atlanta and not here?

[BearSox]

There's no reason why Morgan shouldn't be a part of their future plans. He's very solid defensively, and he's done nothing but hit at the MLB level. There really doesn't seem to be much of a difference between him or Hernandez, except Hernandez is still a ways away and Morgan has proven to be able to hit MLB pitching.

 

If they got rid of Morgan because they have Hernandez, it just shows how incompetent they really are. If they were smart, they would have chose to go into next year with Morgan in LF, McCutchen in CF, and McLouth in RF. I'm sorry, but you don't trade your best player and the fan favorite in Pittsburgh for a mediocre pitcher and 2 guys with upside but aren't near MLB ready. Thats a huge slap in the face to the fans.

[sircaffey]

There's no reason why Morgan shouldn't be a part of their future plans. He's very solid defensively, and he's done nothing but hit at the MLB level. There really doesn't seem to be much of a difference between him or Hernandez, except Hernandez is still a ways away and Morgan has proven to be able to hit MLB pitching.

 

If they got rid of Morgan because they have Hernandez, it just shows how incompetent they really are. If they were smart, they would have chose to go into next year with Morgan in LF, McCutchen in CF, and McLouth in RF. I'm sorry, but you don't trade your best player and the fan favorite in Pittsburgh for a mediocre pitcher and 2 guys with upside but aren't near MLB ready. Thats a huge slap in the face to the fans.

 

Nyjer Morgan is not a starting OF. Yes, he's good defensively, but he's already nearly 29 years old, has 1 career HR, and is not a great base stealer. Hernandez's ceiling is MUCH higher. Also, Morgan's not going anywhere right now most likely, but he's certainly not going to be with them for when they are ready to compete in 3-4 years.

 

Would the Pirates be able to compete with that OF next season? No. What really is the point in spending the $4.5 million next season and $6.5 mil the next season when he will allow them to win 74 games instead of 70? Instead, the wise move is to invest that money into Latin America and the draft, which they're doing. The Pirates don't have a large payroll, and that $11 million that they would pay McLouth to finish a few games closer to 4th place would be better served to be invested in their system.

 

McLouth is not Mickey Mantle. The fans aren't showing up just to see him play. They'll gravitate to an exciting young player like McCutchen, and McLouth will soon be forgotten.

Edited June 7, 2009 by sircaffey

[VAfan]

1st-The package ATL gave the Pirates was decent. The prospects were solid overall

 

2nd-This team needs help in a few positions. But it's still too early to write off Getz, Beckham and Anderson. All three [OK, maybe not BA] should be able to best McLouth's current avg. and OBP. Yet Quentin is still the key to this team. If he's not healthy, I don't see the sox winning the AL Central let alone going far in the playoffs. This team has to have Carlos hitting or they aren't going anywhere.

 

3rd-5th points:

If McLouth was a key guy to build around, then the sox should have traded for him. IMO, and Kenny Williams', he wasn't. In yours, he probably was.

 

Bottom line, he's a Brave. The sox will make moves. And not going after McLouth was a move and a statement.

 

 

I'm not writing off Beckham. Where the heck did you get that from? I have consistently said Beckham is part of the solution, not the problem.

 

But it is certainly time to write off Getz, who will never even come within range of being a league average second baseman. He's always going to be a below average guy because he has NO power and no hope of ever developing power. Teams won't be scared enough of him to walk him, so even if he hit .300 he'd still struggle mightily to post a .700 OPS. Right now he's in the low .600s. His runs created per game are in the 3s, which means he's dragging down the offense big time.

 

Brian Anderson is no better, though you see that big body and you think if he were given enough playing time at this point he might start to hit, and to hit with a little power. I'm tired of waiting for it, however. Right now he's also posting a runs created per game total in the low 3s, so he's another drag on the offense. His value is as a reserve outfielder LIDP given his exceptional defense.

 

As for McLouth, for those who continue to knock his offense, please reconsider or continue to look foolish. If you look at his runs created number, which will include the value of his speed, he's creating 6.27 runs per game. That's BETTER than the best two numbers posted by current Sox players -- Jermaine Dye is at 6.07 and Jim Thome is at 6.03. Konerko's at 5.82. I'm not saying McLouth is a better hitter than a healthy Carlos Quentin, but I would say he's as good an offensive player as any other player the Sox currently have. Last year, McLouth posted a 6.67 RC27 number. Dye was at 6.30, Thome at 6.10. Only Quentin, at 7.67, was better.

 

(If you look at Major League CFs by RC27, McLouth ranks in the top-10, in the same zone as Curtis Granderson, Matt Kemp, and Aaron Rowand. He's behind Beltran, Adam Jones, Torii Hunter, and Mike Cameron.)

 

So, as I look at those numbers, I'm even more adamant that the Sox missed the boat here. McLouth is not only capable of fixing CF until Jordan Danks is ready, he's probably a better hitter than Jordan Danks will ever be. Indeed, if the Pirates wanted a CF back in trade, I would have given them Jordan Danks plus two pitchers not named Poreda in the deal if that's what it took. I wouldn't want to unload Danks because we need two outfielders soon enough given Dye's advancing age, and because I'm assuming Danks is a better fielder in CF, but I would have.

 

I also never said what the Pirates got was worthless. What I said is that they got prospects who aren't going to be ready for the majors for a couple of years, which means they may never be ready for the majors. Ratings in that respect are just ratings. Projections. A lot has to happen for those guys to pan out. In the meantime, the Sox would have acquired a 27 year old CF/RF who is signed for 3 years at a very reasonable rate who is hitting better than any player the Sox currently have. He would have filled a gaping hole on the team and given us a much better chance to win this year and next year. Plus, at the end of those two years, he would likely have more value than he has now.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I'm not writing off Beckham. Where the heck did you get that from? I have consistently said Beckham is part of the solution, not the problem.

 

But it is certainly time to write off Getz, who will never even come within range of being a league average second baseman. He's always going to be a below average guy because he has NO power and no hope of ever developing power. Teams won't be scared enough of him to walk him, so even if he hit .300 he'd still struggle mightily to post a .700 OPS. Right now he's in the low .600s. His runs created per game are in the 3s, which means he's dragging down the offense big time.

 

Brian Anderson is no better, though you see that big body and you think if he were given enough playing time at this point he might start to hit, and to hit with a little power. I'm tired of waiting for it, however. Right now he's also posting a runs created per game total in the low 3s, so he's another drag on the offense. His value is as a reserve outfielder LIDP given his exceptional defense.

 

As for McLouth, for those who continue to knock his offense, please reconsider or continue to look foolish. If you look at his runs created number, which will include the value of his speed, he's creating 6.27 runs per game. That's BETTER than the best two numbers posted by current Sox players -- Jermaine Dye is at 6.07 and Jim Thome is at 6.03. Konerko's at 5.82. I'm not saying McLouth is a better hitter than a healthy Carlos Quentin, but I would say he's as good an offensive player as any other player the Sox currently have. Last year, McLouth posted a 6.67 RC27 number. Dye was at 6.30, Thome at 6.10. Only Quentin, at 7.67, was better.

 

(If you look at Major League CFs by RC27, McLouth ranks in the top-10, in the same zone as Curtis Granderson, Matt Kemp, and Aaron Rowand. He's behind Beltran, Adam Jones, Torii Hunter, and Mike Cameron.)

 

So, as I look at those numbers, I'm even more adamant that the Sox missed the boat here. McLouth is not only capable of fixing CF until Jordan Danks is ready, he's probably a better hitter than Jordan Danks will ever be. Indeed, if the Pirates wanted a CF back in trade, I would have given them Jordan Danks plus two pitchers not named Poreda in the deal if that's what it took. I wouldn't want to unload Danks because we need two outfielders soon enough given Dye's advancing age, and because I'm assuming Danks is a better fielder in CF, but I would have.

 

I also never said what the Pirates got was worthless. What I said is that they got prospects who aren't going to be ready for the majors for a couple of years, which means they may never be ready for the majors. Ratings in that respect are just ratings. Projections. A lot has to happen for those guys to pan out. In the meantime, the Sox would have acquired a 27 year old CF/RF who is signed for 3 years at a very reasonable rate who is hitting better than any player the Sox currently have. He would have filled a gaping hole on the team and given us a much better chance to win this year and next year. Plus, at the end of those two years, he would likely have more value than he has now.

No reason to write off Getz. I don't ever think he'll be an All-Star but he can definitely help a Major League team by playing a good 2B and hitting for a high average and drawing a few walks. He doesn't K much and has speed, so he can fill a role. When guys like Jose Lopez are starters you know a guy like Chris Getz can make it somewhere.

 

Don't wait for BA then, go ahead and hate with runs created as your reasoning.

 

What is all this about comparing CFers? He's not a true CF, he's a corner guy, and his power isn't all that great. He's an overrated player IMO. I've said this before, but I think he could easily be the next Eric Byrnes. If he was a much better player I'm sure Pittsburgh would have asked a lot more for him. Atlanta gave up 3 good prospects in a fair deal, and he wasn't worth a superstar.

 

LOL about saying McLouth is probably better than Jordan will ever be. What makes you think that? Because Danks strikes out? Danks already fits in CF better than McLouth does. McLouth has to exceed league average in a corner to be viewed as a very good player, and Danks only has to do the same in CF. McLouth has higher offensive standards to reach because of his poor D in CF. Danks may not amount to anything, but it's dumb to say it's doubtful he'll be any good at this point in his career.

 

McLouth would be another Swisher deal IMO. We're acquiring a non-CF to put in CF and hoping he can fit in a corner long-term. He is not a CF of the future type of talent. If a real CF of the future type of MLB-ready talent became available, then I would think very hard about the deal. We'd have had to give up prospects with higher ceilings than McLouth since we don't have the overall depth the Braves have/had, and I'm pretty much always against those types of deals.

 

As far as CF goes, I'm sure KW could go out and get Randy Winn for next to nothing if he wanted to take on the full contract. There are other options out there that don't involve selling big pieces off the farm.

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

There's no reason why Morgan shouldn't be a part of their future plans. He's very solid defensively, and he's done nothing but hit at the MLB level. There really doesn't seem to be much of a difference between him or Hernandez, except Hernandez is still a ways away and Morgan has proven to be able to hit MLB pitching.

 

If they got rid of Morgan because they have Hernandez, it just shows how incompetent they really are. If they were smart, they would have chose to go into next year with Morgan in LF, McCutchen in CF, and McLouth in RF. I'm sorry, but you don't trade your best player and the fan favorite in Pittsburgh for a mediocre pitcher and 2 guys with upside but aren't near MLB ready. Thats a huge slap in the face to the fans.

If they put Morgan out there I'd like him if he comes cheap enough.

 

Disagree on McLouth though. I love what the Pirates have been doing since the big changes and I think it is going to pay off for them finally. As for their fans, their fans have been slapped in the face far too many times in the past for it to matter much right now. The biggest slaps in the face were taking on players like Randa and Morris for no reason, and handing out lucrative extensions to mediocre offensive, all-defense players like Jack Wilson. And getting nothing for Aramis Ramirez.

 

The Pirates apparently are building a nice core of solid prospects by trading guys they either can't afford long-term or do not see as legitimate impact types. In turn they are targeting impact types through the draft and international free agency. Good for them.

 

And I still think people are underrating Gorkys and Morton. I see both of those guys as future MLB players, with Morton helping very soon. In due time they'll have a solid cache to deal from along with a core of a couple pretty sick young players.

Edited June 7, 2009 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[ILMOU]

No reason to write off Getz. I don't ever think he'll be an All-Star but he can definitely help a Major League team by playing a good 2B and hitting for a high average and drawing a few walks. He doesn't K much and has speed, so he can fill a role. When guys like Jose Lopez are starters you know a guy like Chris Getz can make it somewhere.

 

Absolutely. He's still getting his feet wet, and I'm not going to pass judgement at this point.

 

I pretty much agree with everyone who disagrees with VAfan.

[VAfan]

No reason to write off Getz. I don't ever think he'll be an All-Star but he can definitely help a Major League team by playing a good 2B and hitting for a high average and drawing a few walks. He doesn't K much and has speed, so he can fill a role. When guys like Jose Lopez are starters you know a guy like Chris Getz can make it somewhere.

 

Don't wait for BA then, go ahead and hate with runs created as your reasoning.

 

What is all this about comparing CFers? He's not a true CF, he's a corner guy, and his power isn't all that great. He's an overrated player IMO. I've said this before, but I think he could easily be the next Eric Byrnes. If he was a much better player I'm sure Pittsburgh would have asked a lot more for him. Atlanta gave up 3 good prospects in a fair deal, and he wasn't worth a superstar.

 

LOL about saying McLouth is probably better than Jordan will ever be. What makes you think that? Because Danks strikes out? Danks already fits in CF better than McLouth does. McLouth has to exceed league average in a corner to be viewed as a very good player, and Danks only has to do the same in CF. McLouth has higher offensive standards to reach because of his poor D in CF. Danks may not amount to anything, but it's dumb to say it's doubtful he'll be any good at this point in his career.

 

McLouth would be another Swisher deal IMO. We're acquiring a non-CF to put in CF and hoping he can fit in a corner long-term. He is not a CF of the future type of talent. If a real CF of the future type of MLB-ready talent became available, then I would think very hard about the deal. We'd have had to give up prospects with higher ceilings than McLouth since we don't have the overall depth the Braves have/had, and I'm pretty much always against those types of deals.

 

As far as CF goes, I'm sure KW could go out and get Randy Winn for next to nothing if he wanted to take on the full contract. There are other options out there that don't involve selling big pieces off the farm.

 

I just think this is very poor baseball logic on multiple fronts.

 

Chris Getz. "Hit for a high average and draw a few walks." The "high average" is an assumption that may never be proven out, but even it it eventually proved true, he's not going to get you enough power or on base percentage to make him a positive run producer. So far Getz has a runs created per game number of 3.84. To win the division, the Sox need to score 5 runs per game, which is exactly what they did last year. So, by playing Getz, you have to make up the offense somewhere else. Why do that when we have just called up Gordon Beckham, who is certainly going to exceed 5 runs per game when he gets acclimated, and who is going to play a better defensive 2B to boot.

 

Getz is just a below average player who is going to be barely passable on any team he plays for. If you had no one else to play 2B, he can be trotted out there and will give you his best along with some decent fielding. But he's not making the team better. He's a negative.

 

McLouth. He's certainly as good or better as a CF as everyone the Sox have put out there, except Brian Anderson, since we let Aaron Rowand go. We won the division last year with Nick Swisher in CF a ton of the time. McLouth has way more speed than Swisher, so he has to be better.

 

McLouth is not a superstar, but he's an above-average player who would be a huge plus for the team. His 6.5 RC number is 3 runs/game better than Brian Anderson. And if you want late inning defense, you could still put Anderson out there.

 

As I pointed out, McLouth's offense is even good enough to play him as a corner outfielder. He generates more runs per game than Jermaine Dye right now, and did last year too. Among right fielders, McLouth would still be in the top 10 in offense, around JD Drew. In other words, more than passable on a winning team.

 

McLouth is better than Swisher in every way. But you know what? We'd be better with Nick Swisher still on this club. We dumped him because Ozzie didn't like him, apparently. He'd certainly be a better offensive option than Brian Anderson or DeWayne Wise in CF. Randy Winn would too. But Winn is 34, while McLouth is 27. If the Sox want to get better, trading for a young lefty power hitting speedy guy who can play CF or RF, not cost that much in prospects, and who is signed at a reasonable price for 3 more years, would be a very good move.

 

The White Sox RC27 number, as a team, is down nearly a run per game this year, from 5.01 to 4.17. WE CAN'T WIN scoring at that rate. So, if you like losing, by all means keep defending non-hitters like Chris Getz.

 

******************

 

Let me add one more point. If the Sox keep scoring at this anemic rate, it's going to take a toll on our young pitchers, who are going to lose plenty of games where they pitch well. That's not a good way to build up their confidence.

 

McLouth is gone, unfortunately. If we don't make a move or two like that very soon, so will the 2009 season.

[scenario]

VA Fan... you obviously don't like Getz. We get it.

 

Just don't expect people to buy into statistical arguments based on 49 games of a guy's first year in the majors.

 

 

[fathom]

I look forward to threads on every player that's traded the rest of this year.

[ThunderBolt]

I look forward to threads on every player that's traded the rest of this year.

I'm still pissed that we didn't get Robert Andino or Hayden Penn.

[beck72]

I'm not writing off Beckham. Where the heck did you get that from? I have consistently said Beckham is part of the solution, not the problem.

What I'm talking about is waiting and seeing how the young guys [Getz, BA, Beckham] do given extended paying time. Writing them off is only giving them 1/4 of a season. Then, if they don't progress, or aren't ready, more meaningful changes can be made. These changes could involve trading key young prospects to fill a key spot, such as CF. McLouth plays a poor CF, from all accounts.

 

And I agree Beckham is part of the solution. IMO, so is Getz. A guy who can reach base in 86% of his teams games in AAA [a stat you should love], is what the sox need. Give the guy time. I just don't see how you write off a .299 hitter with a .360 OBP in AAA and say this isn't what the sox need. But you do like to argue. Kind of reminds me of Ncorgbl [sp?]

[witesoxfan]

But that isn't close to a comparable package. It's WAY more than Atlanta gave up. They didn't surrender any lefties who can throw 98 mph.

 

A comparable package, in my mind, would be what we got from the Yankees for Nick Swisher. Or maybe slightly more now that people realize Betemit isn't worth much.

 

No it's not. Poreda has struggled with his control, and as far as I'm aware, hasn't done much but flash very good secondary pitches. He may be a step above Morton and Locke, he may not.

 

I would rate Hernandez quite a bit higher Shelby, and I don't think it's far-fetched to believe that Locke is along the same lines as Hudson as a prospect. In the end, it all evens out.

 

Soxtalk would have blown up giving up that much for, quite frankly, an .850 OPS CFer with bad defense. s***, Brian Anderson could be that next year, or Jordan Danks could be that come 2011.

Edited June 8, 2009 by witesoxfan

[southsider2k5]

No it's not. Poreda has struggled with his control, and as far as I'm aware, hasn't done much but flash very good secondary pitches. He may be a step above Morton and Locke, he may not.

 

I would rate Hernandez quite a bit higher Shelby, and I don't think it's far-fetched to believe that Locke is along the same lines as Hudson as a prospect. In the end, it all evens out.

 

Soxtalk would have blown up giving up that much for, quite frankly, an .850 OPS CFer with bad defense. s***, Brian Anderson could be that next year, or Jordan Danks could be that come 2011.

 

Which is exactly why we didn't give up too much for the guy.