Fields v. Getz

[beck72]

Getz is a keeper. He'll be a solid pro, an everyday player. He's part of the solution of improving the sox offense--hitting for avg, making contact, getting on base, speed and smarts on the bases.

Josh Fields is likely a trade chip. When you're a major league player and have trouble hitting a 90 mph FB, something's wrong.

Nix is a bench guy. Nothing more.

 

For 2009, we'll see Beckham mostly at 3b. Fields will back him up. Getz should see most of the time at 2B. If Gordon can hit and field at 3b, Fields should be gone this year.

Edited June 7, 2009 by beck72

[Heads22]

We sorely need the power that Josh displayed all of a sudden today.

[lostfan]

If Nix could be like Juan Uribe before he turned into the Tasmanian Devil in 2006 (Gold Glove-caliber middle infielder, average in the .250s, OPS in the .700s) I'd like him a whole lot hitting 8th or 9th.

[fathom]

Getz/Nix would be a great utility combo. I was proud of Ozzie for putting Nix in RF today. Hopefully we have the PK/Beckham/Alexei/Fields infield for the next few years.

[Chisoxfn]

Wow, we have some serious idiots around here. I don't like saying things, but wow.

[BearSox]

This is nuts..Jayson Nix is batting .203 this season. He's not good, but people are acting like we discovered this amazing player.

 

If someone could get through to him and get him to start using the whole field, he could turn into a solid player. He's always had the potential, and this year he's shown good power, has provided us with some very good AB's, actually looks like a hitter at bat, and has shown good versatility.

 

I'm surprised at how well he's handled playing SS, 3B, LF, and RF this year, considering prior to this year he barely played any position but 2B (he had 40 games at SS when he first got into professional ball, and in the past couple years he's had a game here or there at 3B). If we actually work and practice him at these positions, and if he progresses as a hitter, best case scenario is something like Mark DeRosa, IMO. In fact, their stances and swing are similar.

[Texsox]

What's the point of this thread?

 

I'm coming in late reading this and my first thought was this is a solution looking for a problem. But, there wound up being some good posts in here.

 

Overall, they are separate, but everything is intertwined. I remember hoping Fields would be the next Robin, now I'm wishing he could be a healthy Crede.

[Heads22]

A producing Josh Fields makes us a much better team.

[Reddy]

We sorely need the power that Josh displayed all of a sudden today.

i wouldn't call one solo shot a 'display of power'. as we know, even scotty pods can do that now and again.

[Heads22]

i wouldn't call one solo shot a 'display of power'. as we know, even scotty pods can do that now and again.

 

It was an extra base hit. That's been good for him.

[lostfan]

I'm coming in late reading this and my first thought was this is a solution looking for a problem. But, there wound up being some good posts in here.

 

Overall, they are separate, but everything is intertwined. I remember hoping Fields would be the next Robin, now I'm wishing he could be a healthy Crede.

Only because we derailed it

[Texsox]

Only because we derailed it

 

Kind of like Field's and Getz' careers?

 

/back on the tracks

[Reddy]

at the end of the day, no one can really argue against the fact that beckham was just called up too early. the ONLY way having beckham up here makes sense is if we were moving alexei to CF, which we obviously aren't. I don't think Ozzie is done with Getz, and Fields is hitting better these days... it puts us in a very awkward pickle. nice, kenny.

[whitesox61382]

Let me start by saying that it is a good thing that VAfan isn't part of the Sox front office.

 

1) Sample size - as others have already pointed out, you can't make a full judgement on a player based on 146 career ABs or even 601 ABs (Field's career total). If teams gave up on young players after a quarter of a season, than half of the current superstars in the majors wouldn't exist. Every now and again you get a player like Pujols who comes into the majors and produces from day 1, but most young players go through a learning curve. Point being, using either players career averages and assuming that they are going to continue to produce at that level over the remainder of their career is simple foolish. Let both players play on a regular basis and see what they can do.

 

2) One dimensional offense - have you been a Sox fan for the past decade? If so, than you will know that one of the Sox biggest flaws has been a one dimensional offense that relies too much on the HR. I know their overall offensive numbers look solid, but what is hidden in the numbers is inconsistency. The Sox have a tendancy to win 11-2 only to come back the next day and lose 2-1. Overall, the numbers look reasonable (in that scenario the Sox average 6 runs a game), but the overall result is an inconsistent .500 calibur team. I am not suggesting that the Sox need to get rid of their power hits and fill the lineup with .300, slap hitters, with good speed, and no power (especially in USCF), but they need some versatility and the ability to manufacture runs in those pitching duals when the HR isn't flying out. The Sox have finished 1st or 2nd in the AL in HRs from 2004 to 2008 in every year expect for one. Is it a coincidence that the one year they didn't finish in the top two they won the World Series? They still hit a lot of HRs, but they found ways to produce runs when they weren't hitting HRs. Fields is in the mold of those one dimensional all or nothing power hitters. IMO, the Sox not to limit those types of players in the lineup.

 

3) Complete player - similar to the argument above, the Sox need to find more complete players. I look at the 5 tools, except I substitute "plate discipline" for "arm". IMO, "arm" should fall under defense. One of the more underrated catagories and stats, especially for young hitters, is plate discipline and none of the other 4 catagories takes into consideration plate discipline. Lets compare the two players in the 5 catagories and you tell me which is the more complete player.

 

Average - Fields hit .275 in 1685 career minor league ABs and .235 in his 601 career major league ABs. The scouting report on Fields is that he is never going to hit for a high average. If he hits .250+ at the major league level, than Sox fans should be happy. Getz hit .286 in 1428 career minor league ABs (hit below .299 only once in his 4 seasons) and .250 in 146 career major league ABs. The scouting report on Getz is that he should be able to hit in the .280-.290 range at the major league leve. Advantage Getz.

 

Power - Fields hit 62 HR and a .458 SLG in the minors and 26 HR and .416 SLG in the majors (601 AB). Fields has good power potential and has displayed the ability to be a 20+ HR hitter at the major league level. Getz hit 17 HR and a .381 SLG in the minors and 0 HR and a .306 SLG in the majors. Getz is not a power guy. He might hit 5-10 HRs a year at the major level. Clear advantage Fields.

 

Plate discipline - Fields draws a decent amount of walks, but he is a lock for 150+ SO if he gets a full season worth of ABs (550+). Getz has always had good plate discipline. Last year was the first year he had more SO than BB. He doesn't draw a ton of walks, but a healthy total. Advantage Getz.

 

Defense - Fields has made some improvements defensively, but he is still a liability at 3B. You can even make an argument that he is one of the worst 3B in the game defensively. He will be lucky to be adequate at 3B and will likely have to move to DH (or possible 1B or LF). Getz is solid defensively and even above average at 2B. He lacks the arm to make the difficult plays in the hole, and that will likely keep him from being a great defensive 2B/GG calibur. Advantage Getz.

 

Speed - Fields runs pretty well for a big power hitters, but his speed is average at best. Before his knee operations he could even snag double digit bags, but he doesn't have that potential any more. Getz isn't a speedster or a great base stealer, but he does have above average speed and has the potential to snag 20 bags. Advantage Getz.

 

Personally, I don't know if either are everyday players (we will only find out if the Sox let them play on a regular basis), but I think Getz is the more complete player. I think both have rather limited upsides. Fields due to his struggles to make consistent contact, which is never going to to away. And Getz because of his lack of power. Only time will tell. At this point in both players careers it is irrational to draw firm conclusions though.

[ThunderBolt]

I really like Getz, but if we're talking about potential and future use for this team the answer is Josh Fields. I'm not really sure that they have a lot to do together. If their's a roster battle that Getz's involved in it's with Nix or Beckham.

Edited June 7, 2009 by Thunderbolt

[Reddy]

Let me start by saying that it is a good thing that VAfan isn't part of the Sox front office.

 

word.

 

oh, and the rest of your post was pretty good too.

[caulfield12]

Let me start by saying that it is a good thing that VAfan isn't part of the Sox front office.

 

1) Sample size - as others have already pointed out, you can't make a full judgement on a player based on 146 career ABs or even 601 ABs (Field's career total). If teams gave up on young players after a quarter of a season, than half of the current superstars in the majors wouldn't exist. Every now and again you get a player like Pujols who comes into the majors and produces from day 1, but most young players go through a learning curve. Point being, using either players career averages and assuming that they are going to continue to produce at that level over the remainder of their career is simple foolish. Let both players play on a regular basis and see what they can do.

 

2) One dimensional offense - have you been a Sox fan for the past decade? If so, than you will know that one of the Sox biggest flaws has been a one dimensional offense that relies too much on the HR. I know their overall offensive numbers look solid, but what is hidden in the numbers is inconsistency. The Sox have a tendancy to win 11-2 only to come back the next day and lose 2-1. Overall, the numbers look reasonable (in that scenario the Sox average 6 runs a game), but the overall result is an inconsistent .500 calibur team. I am not suggesting that the Sox need to get rid of their power hits and fill the lineup with .300, slap hitters, with good speed, and no power (especially in USCF), but they need some versatility and the ability to manufacture runs in those pitching duals when the HR isn't flying out. The Sox have finished 1st or 2nd in the AL in HRs from 2004 to 2008 in every year expect for one. Is it a coincidence that the one year they didn't finish in the top two they won the World Series? They still hit a lot of HRs, but they found ways to produce runs when they weren't hitting HRs. Fields is in the mold of those one dimensional all or nothing power hitters. IMO, the Sox not to limit those types of players in the lineup.

 

3) Complete player - similar to the argument above, the Sox need to find more complete players. I look at the 5 tools, except I substitute "plate discipline" for "arm". IMO, "arm" should fall under defense. One of the more underrated catagories and stats, especially for young hitters, is plate discipline and none of the other 4 catagories takes into consideration plate discipline. Lets compare the two players in the 5 catagories and you tell me which is the more complete player.

 

Average - Fields hit .275 in 1685 career minor league ABs and .235 in his 601 career major league ABs. The scouting report on Fields is that he is never going to hit for a high average. If he hits .250+ at the major league level, than Sox fans should be happy. Getz hit .286 in 1428 career minor league ABs (hit below .299 only once in his 4 seasons) and .250 in 146 career major league ABs. The scouting report on Getz is that he should be able to hit in the .280-.290 range at the major league leve. Advantage Getz.

 

Power - Fields hit 62 HR and a .458 SLG in the minors and 26 HR and .416 SLG in the majors (601 AB). Fields has good power potential and has displayed the ability to be a 20+ HR hitter at the major league level. Getz hit 17 HR and a .381 SLG in the minors and 0 HR and a .306 SLG in the majors. Getz is not a power guy. He might hit 5-10 HRs a year at the major level. Clear advantage Fields.

 

Plate discipline - Fields draws a decent amount of walks, but he is a lock for 150+ SO if he gets a full season worth of ABs (550+). Getz has always had good plate discipline. Last year was the first year he had more SO than BB. He doesn't draw a ton of walks, but a healthy total. Advantage Getz.

 

Defense - Fields has made some improvements defensively, but he is still a liability at 3B. You can even make an argument that he is one of the worst 3B in the game defensively. He will be lucky to be adequate at 3B and will likely have to move to DH (or possible 1B or LF). Getz is solid defensively and even above average at 2B. He lacks the arm to make the difficult plays in the hole, and that will likely keep him from being a great defensive 2B/GG calibur. Advantage Getz.

 

Speed - Fields runs pretty well for a big power hitters, but his speed is average at best. Before his knee operations he could even snag double digit bags, but he doesn't have that potential any more. Getz isn't a speedster or a great base stealer, but he does have above average speed and has the potential to snag 20 bags. Advantage Getz.

 

Personally, I don't know if either are everyday players (we will only find out if the Sox let them play on a regular basis), but I think Getz is the more complete player. I think both have rather limited upsides. Fields due to his struggles to make consistent contact, which is never going to to away. And Getz because of his lack of power. Only time will tell. At this point in both players careers it is irrational to draw firm conclusions though.

 

Yes, BUT by this argument, you'd think that someone like Chris Getz would be more valuable than Adam Dunn, for instance.

 

There's very little doubt that if we had Adam Dunn playing LF (for example) all season, we'd have at least 2-4 more wins this season.

 

The Sox offense has always been predicated on production from the core of the line-up, complemented by the other positions on the field...the likes of Pods, Iguchi, Rowand and Uribe in 2005, for instance. Or even Carl Everett that season.

 

Where the problem occurs this season (besides inconsistent starting pitching) is with the loss of Carlos Quentin's production, the heat really falls on 3B, SS, 2B and CF to give us more production. Of course, Alexei is hitting decently now, but he's still about 150 OPS behind what he did last year. You can live with Alexei at 700+ at SS, but probably not at 650 like Cabrera last year, not when you're losing all of the production out of Carlos.

 

Obviously, Nix would be a better utility player than Getz...except he's an all or nothing hitter and doesn't have Chris' speed.

 

It seems there is a place for BOTH these guys on the team...as long as you have a bigger bat coming off the bench for OF/1B/DH. Certainly bigger than Wise/Owens/Anderson/Pods.

 

Of course, we had that batter in Betemit, he just couldn't play any position in the field and his best place was DH, but he's only effective against RHP, just like Thome...so superfluous and now gone.

 

Fields/Viciedo at 3B, Ramirez at SS and Beckham at 2B gives the best possible offensive/defensive combination. The only possibility to improve would be if Nix miraculously became a 260-280 hitter, he would be more valuable because of his "plus" defense at 3B over Josh.

 

Of course, Viciedo just committed his 13th error, but he has been an RBI machine recently. Now, how much of that is attributable to the overwhelming talent on that roster and how much of it is "innate" I guess we'll find out when he plays for Charlotte and has to maximize his RBI opportunities (and he struggled mightily in that area the first 4-6 weeks or so).

 

Bottom line, playing 81 home games at USCF, Getz can't be a starter. If he was playing at Safeco or Petco or in the Metrodome, you might be able to hide him in the line-up more easily. He won't kill your offense, but he's a below average player in that regard and he still hasn't learned how to maximize his speed in terms of stolen bases, either.

 

Realistically, they would be better off with Uribe as the "supersub" and Getz and Nix both playing everyday in Charlotte, if both of them aren't going to get enough at-bats, depending on how long they stick with Beckham.

Edited June 7, 2009 by caulfield12

[The Ginger Kid]

sure isn't much slack for the development of rookies on this board. Gordon Beckham fans are in for a letdown.

[T R U]

sure isn't much slack for the development of rookies on this board. Gordon Beckham fans are in for a letdown.

 

We haven't sent that bust down yet?

[GreatScott82]

One of Fields or Getz will be traded soon. I just don't see this continuing on for an entire season. There is no way KW wants Beckham on the bench, and there is no way he is being sent down right after he was brought up. I honestly believe Fields is a good trading chip. I could see Pittsburgh being interested in Fields, we'll see what they plan on doing with LaRoche and Sanchez. KW better be inquirering about Sanchez, the dude can hit. And our lineup NEEEEEEDS hitting. An infield of Beckham, Ramirez, Sanchez and Pauly is better defensively and offensively than what we have right now.

[Dick Allen]

Its amazaing on a board that has constantly belittled the White Sox supposed all or nothing approach, how much love Josh Fields and now Jayson Nix get. Perhaps two of the biggest all or nothing hitters the White Sox have had the past several seasons.

[beck72]

Bottom line, playing 81 home games at USCF, Getz can't be a starter. If he was playing at Safeco or Petco or in the Metrodome, you might be able to hide him in the line-up more easily. He won't kill your offense, but he's a below average player in that regard and he still hasn't learned how to maximize his speed in terms of stolen bases, either.

Are you saying that Getz can't be a starter for the Sox because the Cell's a home run hitter's park, yet would be OK in a pitcher's park? IMO, Getz' approach to offense [making contact, hitting for avg, posting a decent OBP, working counts, smart baserunning] helps the sox lineup that is still heavily reliant on the long ball. He's a guy who can score from 2b on a single, or from 1st on a double. The sox have had too many years of innings with needing 3 hits to score a run. The sox have hit a lot of solo HR's in recent years. Having guys on base [which is what Getz has done in his minor league career-both in avg. and OBP], regardless of where the team plays, helps team's score runs.

 

In an ideal world, the sox lineup would feature 9 guys who all have speed, power, patience and can hit .280-.300. Few guys in the league have that total package who can do that, let alone have a lineup full of them. The sox need a blend of power guys and guys who can compliment that power, esp. playing 82 games in the Cell. Getz compliments the current team quite well.

 

 

[hawkubes]

A producing Josh Fields makes us a much better team.

+1

Over the past 12 games Fields has played in, he's raised his batting avg. by 40 points. Nobody else has really been producing all that much offensively except for Pods, and the Sox have won 9 of those games. I haven't been able to catch every game (with the damn WCIU games and Fox deciding to show the Twinks game here) but I can't recall any defensive miscues in that time either He was probably the player of the game last night. I say lay off Fields for awhile, he's playing great right now.

[caulfield12]

Are you saying that Getz can't be a starter for the Sox because the Cell's a home run hitter's park, yet would be OK in a pitcher's park? IMO, Getz' approach to offense [making contact, hitting for avg, posting a decent OBP, working counts, smart baserunning] helps the sox lineup that is still heavily reliant on the long ball. He's a guy who can score from 2b on a single, or from 1st on a double. The sox have had too many years of innings with needing 3 hits to score a run. The sox have hit a lot of solo HR's in recent years. Having guys on base [which is what Getz has done in his minor league career-both in avg. and OBP], regardless of where the team plays, helps team's score runs.

 

In an ideal world, the sox lineup would feature 9 guys who all have speed, power, patience and can hit .280-.300. Few guys in the league have that total package who can do that, let alone have a lineup full of them. The sox need a blend of power guys and guys who can compliment that power, esp. playing 82 games in the Cell. Getz compliments the current team quite well.

 

 

Getz in the Iguchi role (if we had the Pods of 2005, first half) would be more valuable than what he is to this team.

 

We have to give him more time...and he's had a lot of little, nagging injury problems that have kept him from getting on a consistent streak of hitting. As long as he's hitting line drives (DJ had a stat that 56% of line drives end up as hits or something like that) and not uppercutting, he SHOULD be fine.

 

The problem is who do you sit: Getz, Ramirez or Fields?

 

 

[jjbabins]

I think in the long scheme of things getz with be more valuable becuase of his versatility. Even if he's reduced to a bench role he'll be more valauable than fields because he's a left handed hitter coming off the bench that can play different positions. He has good speed, decent contact, and plays solid defense (at times). I'm just not sold on Fields at all right now. It's pathetic that he can get absolutely dominated by any pitcher that throws over 92mph, and with 3b being a power position thats unacceptable. Also, with that hitch in his swing the chances he hits for a high average isn't good either and throw in his shaky defense on top of that - i just don't see any reason to get excited about him right now.