Fields v. Getz

[iamshack]

I don't think of him as an above average offensive player yet. With his speed, he should be. If he can post a .340 OBP, he could be very valuable.

 

He's not an above average player by any means. On the other hand, he happens to offer certain attributes that are very valuable to our club because of the makeup of the rest of our players (the fact that they are not like him). He works now, since we have no one better. But I am not sure anyone would feel badly about him becoming a utility player had we traded for Scott Rolen and moved Beckham to 2b.

[WCSox]

I don't think of him as an above average offensive player yet. With his speed, he should be. If he can post a .340 OBP, he could be very valuable.

 

I never claimed that he's an "above-average" offensive player. And, frankly, the difference between .340 and .322 isn't exactly vast. Getz's OBP has improved dramatically since last year, and I don't see a reason why it won't improve a little more next season. He's far from an offensive liability, and his speed and defense are a plus.

 

Edited August 2, 2009 by WCSox

[VAfan]

It is pretty obviously too late for Fields to make much of an impression on the White Sox. And it's not clear if he will ever get out of his funk. So, at this point, since Getz has improved with more playing time, I would take the present alignment with Getz at 2B and Beckham at 3B over Beckham at 2B and Fields at 3B.

 

But let's not kid ourselves that Getz is an offensive force. His OPS is still .700. He's creating 4.81 runs per game, which ranks him 14th among AL 2Bs (including non-qualified guys, as Getz is one). He's still the weakest link in the lineup offensively.

 

If we get someone better to play 3B, I expect they'll move Beckham (not this year) and make Getz a utility guy. In the meantime, I hope Getz hits fabulously and proves himself.

[Jeremy]

Indeed, he may have. Unfortunately for Josh, he plays a position where others are far superior to him.

 

I don't see how that has any bearing on this conversation. If someone who only played third base took his spot that would make complete sense but Beckham could just as easily play 2B.

 

While I would love to see Beckham ultimately move to 2nd, even if it means Getz gets displaced from the everyday lineup, the makeup of our current team dictates that Beckham plays 3rd and Getz/Nix platoon at 2b.

 

The platoon option is nice enough but I think it's an overstatement to suggest it dictated making Getz a near regular and removing Fields from the picture. Not to mention, the team could've still spread playing time by playing Getz often against righties but then playing Fields at 3B and Beckham at 2B against lefties.

 

Compare their splits on a month-to-month basis and decide whether you still have an argument.

 

Are you somehow confused by my argument? The point is that you can really only compare the splits from the first two months of the season, since Fields didn't get regular playing time after that - we don't know if he might have gotten hot after that because he hardly played. You want to examine Getz's splits up until the time Beckham was called up? He hit .340/.396/.404 in 47 April at bats and then a dreadful .200/.263/.256 in 90 May at bats. Is that progression supposed to impress me and convince me it would have seemed crazy to reduce his playing time on June 4?

 

It is pretty obviously too late for Fields to make much of an impression on the White Sox. And it's not clear if he will ever get out of his funk. So, at this point, since Getz has improved with more playing time, I would take the present alignment with Getz at 2B and Beckham at 3B over Beckham at 2B and Fields at 3B.

 

Agreed. Don't get me wrong, you can't demote Getz now that he's on fire. I just disagree with using hindsight to argue that giving close to all the time to Getz and none of it to Fields was clearly the right decision at a time when they were producing very similarly. It certainly was not clear that Getz would hit .340 over the course of a month and it's still unclear what improvements, if any, Fields would have made if he'd continued to receive consistent at bats. Getz obviously won't hit this well the rest of the way but at this point the die has been cast.

 

 

[iamshack]

So what you are suggesting is that we move Gordon Beckham to 2b, now that we have FORCED him to play a position he has NEVER before played in his life, one that he finally is displaying some competency in, and no doubt finally gaining some confidence in, JUST so we can give Josh the OPPORTUNITY to rebound like Chris Getz did, on the mere CHANCE that he may be able to repeat what Getz did, DESPITE the fact that Josh has had PLENTY of opportunities to this point and has CONSISTENTLY FAILED to show EITHER the willingness or the ABILITY to shorten his swing so that he might make contact with a MEDIOCRE major league fastball?

 

Sorry, not buying it.

Edited August 2, 2009 by iamshack

[Jeremy]

So what you are suggesting is that we move Gordon Beckham to 2b, now that we have FORCED him to play a position he has NEVER before played in his life, one that he finally is displaying some competency in, and no doubt finally gaining some confidence in, JUST so we can give Josh the OPPORTUNITY to rebound like Chris Getz did, on the mere CHANCE that he may be able to repeat what Getz did, DESPITE the fact that Josh has had PLENTY of opportunities to this point and has CONSISTENTLY FAILED to show EITHER the willingness or the ABILITY to shorten his swing so that he might make contact with a MEDIOCRE major league fastball?

 

Sorry, not buying it.

 

C'mon, you're perfectly capable of reading my posts, including the one that preceded this one:

 

Agreed. Don't get me wrong, you can't demote Getz now that he's on fire. I just disagree with using hindsight to argue that giving close to all the time to Getz and none of it to Fields was clearly the right decision at a time when they were producing very similarly. It certainly was not clear that Getz would hit .340 over the course of a month and it's still unclear what improvements, if any, Fields would have made if he'd continued to receive consistent at bats. Getz obviously won't hit this well the rest of the way but at this point the die has been cast.

 

Point #1: Anyone who claims they knew Getz was going to hit .324 in July or .340 after the ASB (notably, in just 47 at bats) is full of it.

 

Point #2: Anyone who insists that Fields wouldn't have improved in June and July is wrong because...we just don't know. Some fans seem to show a strong preference for players that are new to the major league club over players with more experience. To some extent, it's worth remembering that Fields hit .275/.359/.458 in the minors and was a first round pick whereas Getz hit .286/.361/.381 and was drafted in the 5th round. Furthermore, Fields previously showed that he's capable of holding his own in the majors when he put up solid numbers and finished 7th in ROY voting back in '07. Obviously he struggled mightily in '08 and didn't get off to a very good start this season but when people complain about a player to this degree it sounds more like frustration than levelheaded evaluation.

 

Point #3: Gordon had spent very little time at 3B when we called him up and had spent most of his formative years as a middle infielder. The idea that he had to play 3B and couldn't play any 2B at that point makes little sense.

[iamshack]

C'mon, you're perfectly capable of reading my posts, including the one that preceded this one:

 

 

 

Point #1: Anyone who claims they knew Getz was going to hit .324 in July or .340 after the ASB (notably, in just 47 at bats) is full of it.

 

Point #2: Anyone who insists that Fields wouldn't have improved in June and July is wrong because...we just don't know. Some fans seem to show a strong preference for players that are new to the major league club over players with more experience. To some extent, it's worth remembering that Fields hit .275/.359/.458 in the minors and was a first round pick whereas Getz hit .286/.361/.381 and was drafted in the 5th round. Furthermore, Fields previously showed that he's capable of holding his own in the majors when he put up solid numbers and finished 7th in ROY voting back in '07. Obviously he struggled mightily in '08 and didn't get off to a very good start this season but when people complain about a player to this degree it sounds more like frustration than levelheaded evaluation.

 

Point #3: Gordon had spent very little time at 3B when we called him up and had spent most of his formative years as a middle infielder. The idea that he had to play 3B and couldn't play any 2B at that point makes little sense.

 

Jeremy,

I don't know how else to respond. I have tried arguing this from nearly every angle but you refuse to recognize any truth to what I am saying. Maybe you just don't believe there is any, at which point I suggest we simply agree to disagree.

 

In my mind, Josh is at a disadvantage because at his best, he shares a similar skillset as several of our other players. He is almost too redundant and unnecessary. At his worst, he is almost impossible to place in a major league lineup because he does not make contact nearly enough.

 

On the other hand, Getz possesses a different skillset from most of the rest of our roster, and thus, even when he is scuffling a bit, he is capable of doing a few things that our other players, for the most part, cannot. That probably creates a bit more breathing room for him in terms of his performance.

 

Additionally, perhaps the coaching staff saw that it might be possible to make adjustments which could turn his season around a bit, while Josh was never going to considering his mechanical issues. I honestly don't know.

 

My guess is the only reason Josh saw what action he did over the course of the last month was in the hopes that some team would give us a usuable piece for the pennant race.

[Dick Allen]

C'mon, you're perfectly capable of reading my posts, including the one that preceded this one:

 

 

 

Point #1: Anyone who claims they knew Getz was going to hit .324 in July or .340 after the ASB (notably, in just 47 at bats) is full of it.

 

Point #2: Anyone who insists that Fields wouldn't have improved in June and July is wrong because...we just don't know. Some fans seem to show a strong preference for players that are new to the major league club over players with more experience. To some extent, it's worth remembering that Fields hit .275/.359/.458 in the minors and was a first round pick whereas Getz hit .286/.361/.381 and was drafted in the 5th round. Furthermore, Fields previously showed that he's capable of holding his own in the majors when he put up solid numbers and finished 7th in ROY voting back in '07. Obviously he struggled mightily in '08 and didn't get off to a very good start this season but when people complain about a player to this degree it sounds more like frustration than levelheaded evaluation.

 

Point #3: Gordon had spent very little time at 3B when we called him up and had spent most of his formative years as a middle infielder. The idea that he had to play 3B and couldn't play any 2B at that point makes little sense.

 

Clearly with the way Beckham and Getz have played, the White Sox choosing to give them playing time over Fields was the correct choice. I really don't understand your argument. "Anyone who insists that Fields wouldn't have improved in June and July is wrong because...we just don't know." Would that also work for anyone who insists Corky Miller wouldn't have been an All Star catcher if the White Sox hadn't sent him down? Where a guy was drafted doesn't matter either. In fact, its refreshing an organization gives playing time based on performance rather than draft position and/or signing bonus. Would you rather have the 38th pick Mark Buerhle on the mound, or first rounder Lance Broadway? Fields was 7th in ROY voting. Care to bet me that Getz will be at least in the top 7 this year? Fields has 620 or so major league at bats and has a .228 career batting average and career .302 OBP with well over 200 strikeouts. Defensively, he's below average. Bang his drum all you want, but the numbers and your eyes, if you're honest with yourself, will tell you Chris Getz will help the White Sox win more games at this time.

[caulfield12]

We haven't traded Fields for just nothing. KW won't just give him up like he did Broadway and Anderson...there's always the possibility with Thome/Dye leaving he gets a 3rd and final opportunity, although it really does seem the writing's on the wall with his recent comments...not quite a war of words with KW and Ozzie like Rauch had in the media, though. Bridges are 75% burned at this point.

 

KW's smart enough to know Nix/Getz can't handle 3B...Viciedo MIGHT arrive for 2010 and Morel/Retherford are long-shots at best.

 

He can sit on Fields for now, wait for him to "recover" his ST stroke (short and quicker) at Charlotte and maybe he becomes a starter again in 2010.

 

Or he finds a Mora/Rolen/Encarnacion/Wigginton (thinking Herbert Perry here) veteran on a one-year deal. Adrian Beltre would be "dreamy" but depends on Thome/Dye re-signings. Too bad Adam Dunn couldn't play 3B.

 

I'd love to see them give Blalock a shot to return to that position with us...if the money's right.

 

He also helps solve the LH bat issue/absence of Thome being gone in all likelihood.

[Kyyle23]

We haven't traded Fields for just nothing. KW won't just give him up like he did Broadway and Anderson...there's always the possibility with Thome/Dye leaving he gets a 3rd and final opportunity, although it really does seem the writing's on the wall with his recent comments...not quite a war of words with KW and Ozzie like Rauch had in the media, though. Bridges are 75% burned at this point.

 

KW's smart enough to know Nix/Getz can't handle 3B...Viciedo MIGHT arrive for 2010 and Morel/Retherford are long-shots at best.

 

He can sit on Fields for now, wait for him to "recover" his ST stroke (short and quicker) at Charlotte and maybe he becomes a starter again in 2010.

 

Or he finds a Mora/Rolen/Encarnacion/Wigginton (thinking Herbert Perry here) veteran on a one-year deal. Adrian Beltre would be "dreamy" but depends on Thome/Dye re-signings. Too bad Adam Dunn couldn't play 3B.

 

I'd love to see them give Blalock a shot to return to that position with us...if the money's right.

 

He also helps solve the LH bat issue/absence of Thome being gone in all likelihood.

 

Considering the return he got on Anderson and Broadway has strengthened the bench considerably, I wouldnt say he just "gave them up"

 

 

Now Fields for Pie, thats just giving him up

 

[knightni]

Wigginton would be a decent option.

 

He's versatile.

[lostfan]

Agreed. Don't get me wrong, you can't demote Getz now that he's on fire. I just disagree with using hindsight to argue that giving close to all the time to Getz and none of it to Fields was clearly the right decision at a time when they were producing very similarly. It certainly was not clear that Getz would hit .340 over the course of a month and it's still unclear what improvements, if any, Fields would have made if he'd continued to receive consistent at bats. Getz obviously won't hit this well the rest of the way but at this point the die has been cast.

There was no hindsight involved when I bumped this thread. I didn't like it then and I don't like it now, and this can be seen in my comments earlier in the thread. There was never any Fields vs. Getz competition, only a hypothetical in the OP's mind. The two players were in totally different situations and were not comparable. It didn't take much forethought to look at Fields and Getz, see their numbers falling (Fields's numbers were never actually that great early on, actually), and see the difference between the two. At this stage in his career, after all the talk of 2007 and the fact that he's had 300-something PAs already, Fields should be close to a finished product. Instead, he's regressed, a lot, and has never adjusted to his weaknesses. Getz was getting his full-time play in the majors, started hot, and pitchers adjusted to him. This thread was started at around Getz's lowest point, while Getz was still trying to adjust. Nobody's claiming to predict Getz being on fire right now, but one doesn't have to be Nostradamus to say "Getz stands a good chance of improving here, let him get through this".

 

Bottom line: if Fields was hitting anywhere close to where he should be, he would still be at 3B, Getz would've done what he's done, and Beckham would probably still be in the minors. Fields's fate has never been tied to Getz. Just Fields.

Edited August 2, 2009 by lostfan

[Kyyle23]

There was no hindsight involved when I bumped this thread. I didn't like it then and I don't like it now, and this can be seen in my comments earlier in the thread. There was never any Fields vs. Getz competition, only a hypothetical in the OP's mind. The two players were in totally different situations and were not comparable. It didn't take much forethought to look at Fields and Getz, see their numbers falling (Fields's numbers were never actually that great early on, actually), and see the difference between the two. At this stage in his career, after all the talk of 2007 and the fact that he's had 300-something PAs already, Fields should be close to a finished product. Instead, he's regressed, a lot, and has never adjusted to his weaknesses. Getz was getting his full-time play in the majors, started hot, and pitchers adjusted to him. This thread was started at around Getz's lowest point, while Getz was still trying to adjust. Nobody's claiming to predict Getz being on fire right now, but one doesn't have to be Nostradamus to say "Getz stands a good chance of improving here, let him get through this".

 

Bottom line: if Fields was hitting anywhere close to where he should be, he would still be at 3B, Getz would've done what he's done, and Beckham would probably still be in the minors. Fields's fate has never been tied to Getz. Just Fields.

 

 

I just want to add that I am pretty sure Getz' slide coincided with an injury, I think he missed a few days after getting beaned or something like that.

[Princess Dye]

Bottom line: if Fields was hitting anywhere close to where he should be, he would still be at 3B, Getz would've done what he's done, and Beckham would probably still be in the minors. Fields's fate has never been tied to Getz. Just Fields.

 

Lets say Getz and Fields were both hitting .275 all year and Beckham was held off for a few months.

 

At the point when Beckham could not be held off anymore, it always wouldve been Fields that had the short straw. b/c Getz gives us a lefthanded bat and muchneeded speeded.

[lostfan]

Lets say Getz and Fields were both hitting .275 all year and Beckham was held off for a few months.

 

At the point when Beckham could not be held off anymore, it always wouldve been Fields that had the short straw. b/c Getz gives us a lefthanded bat and muchneeded speeded.

Not even. If Fields is hitting .275, he is slugging far more than Getz ever could, i.e. the 3B of the future that they expected him to be.

[Princess Dye]

Not even. If Fields is hitting .275, he is slugging far more than Getz ever could, i.e. the 3B of the future that they expected him to be.

 

Perhaps youre right. But my example remains lets say if both guys are hitting .258, .315 OBP

 

 

 

At some point, Beckham would have taken over for one of these guys, even if they were displaying some decent stats. Because theyve been pegged as the lineup's weak links for the entire year, and Becks has been mashing everywhere he's been.

 

And it remains that Gordon likely wouldve replaced the righty bat

Edited August 3, 2009 by Princess Dye

[Kyyle23]

Perhaps youre right. But my example remains lets say if both guys are hitting .258, .315 OBP

 

 

 

At some point, Beckham would have taken over for one of these guys, even if they were displaying some decent stats. Because theyve been pegged as the lineup's weak links for the entire year, and Becks has been mashing everywhere he's been.

 

And it remains that Gordon likely wouldve replaced the righty bat

 

Your hypotheticals are just that, hypothetical. The fact remains that Josh still has not shown an ability to adjust, and is overmatched at the major league level. The Sox waited as long as they could before pulling the plug, and they obviously believe that Beckham and Getz in the lineup is much better than Fields and Beckham, and I cannot disagree

[Princess Dye]

Your hypotheticals are just that, hypothetical. The fact remains that Josh still has not shown an ability to adjust, and is overmatched at the major league level. The Sox waited as long as they could before pulling the plug, and they obviously believe that Beckham and Getz in the lineup is much better than Fields and Beckham, and I cannot disagree

 

Oh yea, i mean, hopefully my point's not being misconstrued, but to be clear - i'm very happy Josh Fields is very far away

[lostfan]

Oh yea, i mean, hopefully my point's not being misconstrued, but to be clear - i'm very happy Josh Fields is very far away

No, I get what you're saying. I still say the premise of this thread is complete nonsense.

[RME JICO]

One of Fields' biggest issues is Strikeouts. If he could cut down on those, all his other numbers would go up.

[soxfan3530]

Getz is better than Fields. Especially for this team and lineup. End of thread/

[caulfield12]

And Ozzie and KW agree with you, too.

 

End of story and thread.

 

Next year...maybe an interesting question to discuss...assuming Fields could be an 775-850 OPS 3B and not commit 25+ errors in the process.

 

 

[beck72]

Threads like these show the credibility of some posters. Esp. when people were going gaga over Josh Fields "hot" streak.

[caulfield12]

I love Lady Gaga.

 

Seriously, Chris Getz WILL NOT prevent the White Sox from winning the World Series in 2009 or any future year.

 

Josh Fields as a starter definitely had a more negative impact on our results for 2 months (April/May) as a starter...there's no argument. Now if we don't make the playoffs, it's certainly not ONLY due to Fields, there's also many other earlier offensive deficiencies like Lillibridge, Wise/Anderson/Owens, Corky Miller and Getz was very inconsistent as well, but still better than Fields from any type of "all-around" broad/general view of who's the better baseball player for THIS Sox team.

[knightni]

I love Lady Gaga.

 

 

Backup man card please.

 

 

*rip*