Healthcare reform

[Y2HH]

But who's making who apologize and for what? That isn't the issue at all. The issue is the current system is inefficient and unavailable to a large segment of the population. It's not a haves vs. have-nots thing.

 

I somewhat agree -- I think we all agree that the system is broken, but I'm not sure the government is the right fix, that's all I'm saying. They aren't the leader in efficiency and low cost...I know the government usually intends to do things like this, but the opposite always seems to happen.

 

[Y2HH]

Well that's great that you did but not everyone is as fortunate as you are with an excess of discretionary income.

 

I wouldn't call it "discretionary", as having that health insurance was a priority. I would have loved to have had that extra 100+ per month in my pocket, but I went without it so I could have the insurance.

 

I would have paid 300$ for it, and found a way to make do without that 300$ if that's what it took.

 

The issue is, a lot of people CAN afford health insurance, but since they aren't "forced" to get it they don't bother trying -- nor will they do without that extra 200$, even if they could, they choose not too.

[lostfan]

I somewhat agree -- I think we all agree that the system is broken, but I'm not sure the government is the right fix, that's all I'm saying. They aren't the leader in efficiency and low cost...I know the government usually intends to do things like this, but the opposite always seems to happen.

I mean, I'm actually with you on what needs to be done probably more than you think. I just keep seeing a lot of irrelevant arguments thrown out there, and people on the anti-public option side have a tendency to mock unemployed or poor people and say overly simplistic things like "it's their fault they're like that."

[lostfan]

100 a month for buying your own health insurance? That isn't s***, really.

[Y2HH]

I mean, I'm actually with you on what needs to be done probably more than you think. I just keep seeing a lot of irrelevant arguments thrown out there, and people on the anti-public option side have a tendency to mock unemployed or poor people and say overly simplistic things like "it's their fault they're like that."

 

Yea, I'm guilty of this, I know it, and I'll admit it.

[BigSqwert]

I wouldn't call it "discretionary", as having that health insurance was a priority. I would have loved to have had that extra 100+ per month in my pocket, but I went without it so I could have the insurance.

 

I would have paid 300$ for it, and found a way to make do without that 300$ if that's what it took.

 

The issue is, a lot of people CAN afford health insurance, but since they aren't "forced" to get it they don't bother trying -- nor will they do without that extra 200$, even if they could, they choose not too.

Well point is that just because you can do something doesn't mean everyone can. People have different circumstances and you shouldn't assume that since it was somewhat easy for you to get that it would be just as easy for anyone else.

[lostfan]

My family was broke as s*** and my dad spent long periods of time being unemployed or working s*** jobs until he could get a better one so I have a defense mechanism about that sort of thing.

[Y2HH]

100 a month for buying your own health insurance? That isn't s***, really.

 

It's actually not expensive depending on your age -- older people 40+ will have a problem. Like before I married my wife, and being that I know because I work for Blue Cross, I had her quit her employer insurance because she was paying more for that than if she just went to Blue Cross herself. She ended up paying 155$ a month for full PPO insurance, and this was just 8 months ago (we got married just last year). The thing is, a lot of people don't realize they can do this -- but they can, it's a simple online questionnaire you fill out, and they email you with a quote -- hers was 155$ a month, she was 28 years old and a non smoker. She was paying more than that through her employer at the time.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Y2HH

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Just to play Devil's advocate here...

 

What if you had gotten very sick during that 6 months? Or some whacko hit you while DUI? If you had only gotten ER treated and streeted, had to live 6 months (or a year or more with a pre-existing condition) while suffering through something and acquiring 10's of thousands in debt, do you think that's a good situation?

 

I'd have been screwed. If it was the DUI well then I would have sued him and his insurance for damages but I see your point. But what I am saying is, is that I made that decision. I weighed the risks and that was the path I chose to take. As I said, I could have gotten a second job but I decided to spend my time doing other things. My brother has a very affordable health plan he pays every month. He finally got a teaching job so he can drop in August but he paid his own way. There are cheap options available if you look. And I;m not saying the system is perfect but I just feel a lot of people who don't have healthcare could do more than they do to do something about it. Obviously that isnt the case for everyone but I would bet on it being prevalent. One thing I would support is a government sponsored "safety net" type system like unemployment where if you get laid off you can apply for a free or very cheap plan for say 6 months while you try to get back on your feet. I understand you can't snap your fingers and get a good job but a lot of people also feel certain jobs are "below them" and refuse to do certain things that are easy to obtain jobs in.

[lostfan]

It's actually not expensive depending on your age -- older people 40+ will have a problem. Like before I married my wife, and being that I know because I work for Blue Cross, I had her quit her employer insurance because she was paying more for that than if she just went to Blue Cross herself. She ended up paying 155$ a month for full PPO insurance, and this was just 8 months ago (we got married just last year). The thing is, a lot of people don't realize they can do this -- but they can, it's a simple online questionnaire you fill out, and they email you with a quote -- hers was 155$ a month, she was 28 years old and a non smoker. She was paying more than that through her employer at the time.

That just kind of sounds like the exception and not the norm.

[ptatc]

As a free trader I'm surprised you don't come up with the other option.

 

One of the reasons why there is a doctor shortage is that we refuse to allow free trade in so many industries; we only allow manufacturing to have to go up against foreign competition, so it gets dismantled.

 

There are schools all over the world who can turn out quality doctors who would be easily willing to come work in the U.S. for a fraction of the wages that U.S. doctors currently make, but they aren't allowed to do so because health care providers are protected from foreign competition. Meanwhile, U.S. schools can't open up more slots to train doctors because they aren't allowed to by quotas; if more doctors were trained, then that would cause competition that would bring down the amount that a doctor can earn. It's a wonderful setup for anyone except the consumer.

 

This is inaccurrate. Foriegn medical providers schooling and transcripts are evaluated and compared to the educational standards in the US. Much of the training and education of the medical professionals in other countries is far below our standards. In my given profssion, Physical Therapy, I evaluate these transcripts and training and find that because many other countires have a version of the "universal" healthcare, they train their medical professions as technicians. They are not trained and educated as well as we are here.

 

This obviously isn't true for all countries or professions across the board but there is enough of a difference that each case is evaluated and usually additional schooling needs to be done.

 

Quotas isn't the reason for keeping medical professional student numbers down. It's the student to faculty ratio that needs to be observed to maintain a high quality of instruction and care. There aren't enough faculty to adequate train the numbers needed, that is why there is a shortage.

 

Everything you said makes sense if you want to decrease the quailty of care with a decrease in the quality of the medical professionals. If you are only looking at costs your ideas make sense. However, with medical care there should be a emphasis on the quality as well.

 

[Y2HH]

That just kind of sounds like the exception and not the norm.

 

Well it's not expensive to insure younger single people -- it's just the families that are more expensive. Single people, I can almost guarantee, you'd be better off paying your own insurance via a big name insurer than doing so through your employer, especially if you are young.

 

I did it for a few years, and I have a few of my friends on their own private plans -- because they're single and it cost them less for the same insurance.

[southsideirish71]

My family was broke as s*** and my dad spent long periods of time being unemployed or working s*** jobs until he could get a better one so I have a defense mechanism about that sort of thing.

 

My father was a broke ass immigrant, who worked 2 to 3 jobs most of our lives and preached education is the way out of our mess. I remember garbage picking to get a bike because we couldn't afford one. My generations success is based on the back breaking effort of my father and my mother. I appreciate hard work, I appreciate those who can and try and are unemployed due to unfortunate circumstances like your father. I have a huge problem with those who can, and don't because of selfishness or laziness. I don't mind helping out those who need a helping hand in the time of need. I have a huge problem helping those who are lazy, and f***ed off and are a burden on society.

Edited June 22, 2009 by southsideirish71

[ChiSox_Sonix]

I wouldn't call it "discretionary", as having that health insurance was a priority. I would have loved to have had that extra 100+ per month in my pocket, but I went without it so I could have the insurance.

 

I would have paid 300$ for it, and found a way to make do without that 300$ if that's what it took.

 

The issue is, a lot of people CAN afford health insurance, but since they aren't "forced" to get it they don't bother trying -- nor will they do without that extra 200$, even if they could, they choose not too.

 

I wonder what the percentage of uninsured are who claim they can't afford healthcare have cable and internet in their house/apartment?

 

Like you said, it is often about decisions. The system isn't perfect but there ARE affordable health care options if you look hard enough.

 

 

[Y2HH]

My father was a broke ass immigrant, who worked 2 to 3 jobs most of our lives and preached education is the way out of our mess. I remember garbage picking to get a bike because we couldn't afford one. My generations success is based on the back breaking effort of my father and my mother. I appreciate hard work, I appreciate those who can and try and are unemployed due to unfortunate circumstances like your father. I have a huge problem with those who can, and don't because of selfishness or laziness. I don't mind helping out those who need a helping hand in the time of need. I have a huge problem helping those who are lazy, and f***ed off and are not a burden on society.

 

I grew up in a similar fashion -- my father came here from a depression ridden Germany (during the Hitler era) completely broke, and my mother was born in bridgeport, where my father first met her. They still live in bridgeport now, of course, but a lot has changed over the years in terms of that neighborhood. I grew up getting hand me downs from bicycles to cloths, alley picked or otherwise...we took what we could -- and I didn't care, I think it made me a better person, though often, it makes me insensitive and more hard nosed than many as I've had to live through some poor times to get where I am now, and I find excuses to be just that...excuses.

 

There was nothing like wearing prowings when everyone else had nike or reebok -- and having a bike from 1978 when it was 1988 -- but I made do with it, and now I lack sympathy for those who refuse to do the same.

 

And I guarantee some of you here know exactly what this felt like.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Y2HH

[lostfan]

My father was a broke ass immigrant, who worked 2 to 3 jobs most of our lives and preached education is the way out of our mess. I remember garbage picking to get a bike because we couldn't afford one. My generations success is based on the back breaking effort of my father and my mother. I appreciate hard work, I appreciate those who can and try and are unemployed due to unfortunate circumstances like your father. I have a huge problem with those who can, and don't because of selfishness or laziness. I don't mind helping out those who need a helping hand in the time of need. I have a huge problem helping those who are lazy, and f***ed off and are not a burden on society.

Whenever I talk about the need to give people a hand those are the kinds of people I'm talking about, my dad and your dad. It was never an issue of "don't want to" in my family, just sometimes it was an issue of "couldn't." I don't care about freeloaders but I do think some people just have more (or less) luck than others.

 

I used to take pieces of old bikes in alleys and make bikes out of them too, I thought just me and my brother did that

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Are you saying only people who dick around in HS and come to class high are the ones that end up having trouble staying employed? Cuz that's kind of a massive strawman.

 

It was just an example, I'm aware that is not true.

 

My father was a broke ass immigrant, who worked 2 to 3 jobs most of our lives and preached education is the way out of our mess. I remember garbage picking to get a bike because we couldn't afford one. My generations success is based on the back breaking effort of my father and my mother. I appreciate hard work, I appreciate those who can and try and are unemployed due to unfortunate circumstances like your father. I have a huge problem with those who can, and don't because of selfishness or laziness. I don't mind helping out those who need a helping hand in the time of need. I have a huge problem helping those who are lazy, and f***ed off and are a burden on society.

 

I couldn't have said it better. And that's kind of what I've been trying to get at

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

I wonder what the percentage of uninsured are who claim they can't afford healthcare have cable and internet in their house/apartment?

 

Like you said, it is often about decisions. The system isn't perfect but there ARE affordable health care options if you look hard enough.

Sort of off-topic, but, I'd suggest that if you are unemployed nowadays, the internet may in fact be a high priority item. Cable TV, not so much.

 

[lostfan]

I wonder what the percentage of uninsured are who claim they can't afford healthcare have cable and internet in their house/apartment?

 

Like you said, it is often about decisions. The system isn't perfect but there ARE affordable health care options if you look hard enough.

We definitely wouldn't have been one of those families. Cable was the first thing to go, then the gas, then the electricity. We only lost our electricity twice that I can recall though and it was just for a couple of days. We kept the phone though but without long-distance, in 2009 you probably really do need the internet so I'd say that's a priority thing.

 

I did have healthcare though, usually. At least enough to get occasional checkups.

Edited June 22, 2009 by lostfan

[BigSqwert]

So now we're blaming millions of uninsured on laziness?

[NorthSideSox72]

So now we're blaming millions of uninsured on laziness?

Some probably should be. Others not. Which is one of the rather large elephants in the room... how do you bifurcate the pool to treat them differently as many are suggesting?

 

[ChiSox_Sonix]

We definitely wouldn't have been one of those families. Cable was the first thing to go, then the gas, then the electricity. We only lost our electricity twice that I can recall though and it was just for a couple of days. We kept the phone though but without long-distance, in 2009 you probably really do need the internet so I'd say that's a priority thing.

 

I did have healthcare though, usually. At least enough to get occasional checkups.

 

Look I just wanna make clear I understand some people just get f***ed over and really need help and support. I fully support helping them if they need help in any way. I just feel it should not be easy to receive free support. IMO, there are a lot of people in this country, and mostly in our generation, who would rather do the minimum because they can get away with it and will be helped rather than do extra to get ahead or be on their own.

 

And although it doesn't go with your post I do believe minors should have some sort of funded healthcare.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

So now we're blaming millions of uninsured on laziness?

 

I bet millions are uninsured through no fault of their own. I also bet millions are uninsured and it's their own faults. People don't like to say it, but come on.

[BigSqwert]

Look I just wanna make clear I understand some people just get f***ed over and really need help and support. I fully support helping them if they need help in any way. I just feel it should not be easy to receive free support. IMO, there are a lot of people in this country, and mostly in our generation, who would rather do the minimum because they can get away with it and will be helped rather than do extra to get ahead or be on their own.

 

And although it doesn't go with your post I do believe minors should have some sort of funded healthcare.

You can't just blame that on poor people. Rich people take advantage in other areas (i.e., taxes).

[Balta1701]

He said he could have bought his own insurance but just didn't feel like and wouldn't have blamed anyone else. Back when I used to do consulting work in 2002-2004, I opted to buy my own insurance from Blue Cross, I paid a little over 100$ a month and I was fully covered.

I'd be absolutley thrilled if that was an option for my family. No insurer will allow us to do that because of pre-existing conditions.