Healthcare reform

[lostfan]

So how is being forced to have government health care, being taxed to pay for it, and being penalized if you don't particpate not losing freedoms? Right now you have the freedom to choose who you want to be covered through, whether it is a company that your employer picks, or someone you pick on your own. You also have the option of not having any insurance at all.

 

The second line sounds great as a talking point, but is a horrible misrepresentation of what will be the reality, and I can give a great example in the modern corporate world today. Wal-Mart. If the federal government comes in, cuts the prices at which the labor pool is going to work at, and cuts the prices that can be charged for goods and services, eventually the will run out all of the other competition in the system, eventually rendering themselves the last stop for health care.

I'm not saying that I agree with it, but that's the reason you don't hear Dems talking about it. On the campaign trail, Obama said he wanted a single-payer system, at some point he saw it was obvious that it wasn't going to fly so he adjusted fire. So, logically, since he and the Dems backed off of the stronger option, they say the public option is adding another choice and keeping the free market system.

 

Maybe I'm naive for it, but I think Obama really believes what he says, and if the public option ends up expanding to the point where it's the only game in town, that would be an unintended consequence.

[southsider2k5]

I'm not saying that I agree with it, but that's the reason you don't hear Dems talking about it. On the campaign trail, Obama said he wanted a single-payer system, at some point he saw it was obvious that it wasn't going to fly so he adjusted fire. So, logically, since he and the Dems backed off of the stronger option, they say the public option is adding another choice and keeping the free market system.

 

Maybe I'm naive for it, but I think Obama really believes what he says, and if the public option ends up expanding to the point where it's the only game in town, that would be an unintended consequence.

 

I fully believe it is a backdoor route to exactly what they wanted in the first place. If you can beat your enemy, you weaken him for later. They know this.

[lostfan]

I fully believe it is a backdoor route to exactly what they wanted in the first place. If you can beat your enemy, you weaken him for later. They know this.

If that was happening I think they'd do it more gradually.

[DukeNukeEm]

The thing that no one is talking about, as usual, is individual economic freedom. That is the one thing that this country was really founded on....

blah

 

I must be the only person in the country who is completely sick and tired of hearing about anything regarding the 'founding' of America 250 years ago. Whether it's what the "founding father's would've wanted" or some hilariously outdated document that people still cling to, the whole idea of trying to get back to our roots is so (for lack of a better word) gullible.

 

We dont live in 1789 America anymore folks, if you haven't noticed.

 

[DukeNukeEm]

So how is being forced to have government health care, being taxed to pay for it, and being penalized if you don't particpate not losing freedoms? Right now you have the freedom to choose who you want to be covered through, whether it is a company that your employer picks, or someone you pick on your own. You also have the option of not having any insurance at all.

What an attractive option! Your freedoms end when they affect other people; so when you exercise your freedom to not get healthcare and then when something goes wrong treat the emergency room as your primary care physician while everyone else pays for it it's not like you're the shining beacon of motherf***ing liberty. Only a true patriot raises the costs for everyone else while they quickly descend into bankruptcy for being an idiot.

 

The second line sounds great as a talking point, but is a horrible misrepresentation of what will be the reality, and I can give a great example in the modern corporate world today. Wal-Mart. If the federal government comes in, cuts the prices at which the labor pool is going to work at, and cuts the prices that can be charged for goods and services, eventually the will run out all of the other competition in the system, eventually rendering themselves the last stop for health care.

Umm... last I checked Wal-Mart is not a federally subsidized company. If anything what you posted goes to prove that our "choice" of healthcare providers is nothing but a mirage. We dont have a free market healthcare system, it's pretty much identical to a government system except that it runs for profit (which keeps a lot of people from affording it).

Edited August 13, 2009 by DukeNukeEm

[Rex Kickass]

So how is being forced to have government health care, being taxed to pay for it, and being penalized if you don't particpate not losing freedoms? Right now you have the freedom to choose who you want to be covered through, whether it is a company that your employer picks, or someone you pick on your own. You also have the option of not having any insurance at all.

 

I don't have kids, yet my tax dollars pay for other kids schools. Since I'm not in school, I'm being penalized.

When I didn't own a car, my tax dollars paid for roads I didn't drive on. Since I'm not driving, I'm being penalized.

 

Your tax dollars currently fund several single payer health programs that you do not participate in. Yet you pay for them and are therefore being penalized for not using them. All this proposal does is level the playing field. Giving you access to health coverage if you can't afford a private plan. I don't understand the "taking away your freedom" argument. It seems rather tenuous at best.

 

[StrangeSox]

blah

 

I must be the only person in the country who is completely sick and tired of hearing about anything regarding the 'founding' of America 250 years ago. Whether it's what the "founding father's would've wanted" or some hilariously outdated document that people still cling to, the whole idea of trying to get back to our roots is so (for lack of a better word) gullible.

 

We dont live in 1789 America anymore folks, if you haven't noticed.

 

I get what you're saying here; WWTFFD? is just an appeal to a long-dead authority. "Jefferson said it!" is used in place of actually giving a reason for why something is or isn't the right thing to do.

 

But, in the end, the Constitution is the law and it does need to be followed.

[vandy125]

Saw this NY Times article this morning. One of the big problems that I have not yet seen addressed is that physicians are able to charge whatever they want right now for anyone but Medicare and the insurers end up footing the bill most of the time.

High Healthcare Costs

A patient in Illinois was charged $12,712 for cataract surgery. Medicare pays $675 for the same procedure. In California, a patient was charged $20,120 for a knee operation that Medicare pays $584 for. And a New Jersey patient was charged $72,000 for a spinal fusion procedure that Medicare covers for $1,629.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

I'm not saying that I agree with it, but that's the reason you don't hear Dems talking about it. On the campaign trail, Obama said he wanted a single-payer system, at some point he saw it was obvious that it wasn't going to fly so he adjusted fire. So, logically, since he and the Dems backed off of the stronger option, they say the public option is adding another choice and keeping the free market system.

 

Maybe I'm naive for it, but I think Obama really believes what he says, and if the public option ends up expanding to the point where it's the only game in town, that would be an unintended consequence.

 

If it truly would be a public option I would be okay with it. However, I don't believe for one second that the overriding end goal would not be to become the sole option. An unintended consequence that they foresaw coming and welcomed is what I see it as.

[StrangeSox]

Saw this NY Times article this morning. One of the big problems that I have not yet seen addressed is that physicians are able to charge whatever they want right now for anyone but Medicare and the insurers end up footing the bill most of the time.

High Healthcare Costs

 

The argument is that they have to charge that much to make up for underpaying Medicare coverage.

[Balta1701]

Umm... last I checked Wal-Mart is not a federally subsidized company. If anything what you posted goes to prove that our "choice" of healthcare providers is nothing but a mirage. We dont have a free market healthcare system, it's pretty much identical to a government system except that it runs for profit (which keeps a lot of people from affording it).

Walmart receives enormous federal, state, and local subsidies. A report in 2004 estimated that the government programs that Walmart employees are eligible for because they are so low income can cost the government about $2.5 billion per year. Low income housing assistance, health care/medicaid costs, food stamps, low-income energy assistance programs, etc. Furthermore, other data suggests that Wal-mart requests and receives very large subsidies from governments when they move in to areas; tax credits, assistance with street construction, etc. Walmart also directly benefits from the "Strong dollar" policy and the current trade imbalance with China.

[Balta1701]

The argument is that they have to charge that much to make up for underpaying Medicare coverage.

No, the argument is that individuals have absolutely no bargaining power. The smaller your group is, the harder it is for you to have any bargaining power.

[EvilMonkey]

No, the argument is that individuals have absolutely no bargaining power. The smaller your group is, the harder it is for you to have any bargaining power.

Then how about making that the staring point for trying to fix healthcare, rather than throwing everything into government control? Find a way to untie group coverage from jobs and make it affordable for the average person to buy. If I only cost $250 a month to insure when I work for ComEd, why do I now cost $1000 to insure when I no longer work for them? That is one area I will grant you all that insurers screw the average consumer. Fix that, and tort reform, along wth the supposed medicare improvements Obama claims to have should be enough without having to turn over the med system to the feds.

[jasonxctf]

Saw this tidbit and thought I'd post here...

 

The measure would block funds for counseling that presents suicide or assisted suicide as an option, Blumenauer said, calling references to death panels or euthanasia "mind-numbing."

 

"It's a blatant lie, and everybody who has checked it agrees," he said.

 

Alaska Republican Sen. Lisa Murkowski said this week that Palin and other critics were not helping the GOP by throwing out false claims.

 

"Quite honestly, I'm so offended at that terminology, because it absolutely isn't" in the bill, Murkowski said. "There is no reason to gin up fear in the American public by saying things that are not included in the bill."

 

Georgia Sen. Johnny Isakson, a Republican who co-sponsored a similar measure in the Senate, said it was "nuts" to claim the bill encourages euthanasia.

 

"You're putting the authority in the individual rather than the government," Isakson said. "I don't know how that got so mixed up."

[southsider2k5]

What an attractive option! Your freedoms end when they affect other people; so when you exercise your freedom to not get healthcare and then when something goes wrong treat the emergency room as your primary care physician while everyone else pays for it it's not like you're the shining beacon of motherf***ing liberty. Only a true patriot raises the costs for everyone else while they quickly descend into bankruptcy for being an idiot.

 

 

Umm... last I checked Wal-Mart is not a federally subsidized company. If anything what you posted goes to prove that our "choice" of healthcare providers is nothing but a mirage. We dont have a free market healthcare system, it's pretty much identical to a government system except that it runs for profit (which keeps a lot of people from affording it).

 

 

Actually you are pretty wrong. My freedoms don't always end when they affect other people, look no further than the torture issue. Freedom of speech falls into the same venue, as does freedom of religion.

 

As for the second part, you didn't nothing to counter the actual economics argument being made there.

[southsider2k5]

blah

 

I must be the only person in the country who is completely sick and tired of hearing about anything regarding the 'founding' of America 250 years ago. Whether it's what the "founding father's would've wanted" or some hilariously outdated document that people still cling to, the whole idea of trying to get back to our roots is so (for lack of a better word) gullible.

 

We dont live in 1789 America anymore folks, if you haven't noticed.

 

Then someone needs to come up with a new constitution because until they we need to live under the one we have.

[lostfan]

Eh did health insurance even exist in the 1790s?

[Balta1701]

Eh did health insurance even exist in the 1790s?

Dr Nick: Gutentag everybody. I can tell from here you have too much blood, lets get you covered in leeches. Dont be shy eat the little boy!

Lisa: Oh doctor, is he gonna be alright?

Dr Nick: By tommorow he will be good as new.........or............dead. But the important thing is, we will know

[southsider2k5]

I don't have kids, yet my tax dollars pay for other kids schools. Since I'm not in school, I'm being penalized.

When I didn't own a car, my tax dollars paid for roads I didn't drive on. Since I'm not driving, I'm being penalized.

 

Your tax dollars currently fund several single payer health programs that you do not participate in. Yet you pay for them and are therefore being penalized for not using them. All this proposal does is level the playing field. Giving you access to health coverage if you can't afford a private plan. I don't understand the "taking away your freedom" argument. It seems rather tenuous at best.

 

The interesting thing is why the federal road system, specifically the interestate system was developed in the first place.

 

Not to mention, I don't accept prior erosions of economic freedoms as justifications for future ones. To me that is circular logic. Its like my three year old saying that I let her stay up an hour let when friends were over, so she gets to stay up late every night.

[Balta1701]

Congrats right wing. Hope you never have to worry about a living will.

The Senate Finance Committee will drop a controversial provision on consultations for end-of-life care from its proposed healthcare bill, its top Republican member said Thursday.

 

The committee, which has worked on putting together a bipartisan healthcare reform bill, will drop the controversial provision after it was derided by conservatives as "death panels" to encourage euthanasia.

 

"On the Finance Committee, we are working very hard to avoid unintended consequences by methodically working through the complexities of all of these issues and policy options," Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) said in a statement. "We dropped end-of-life provisions from consideration entirely because of the way they could be misinterpreted and implemented incorrectly."

[southsider2k5]

Too bad. You could solve the health care and social security problems in one swoop.

[Balta1701]

Too bad. You could solve the health care and social security problems in one swoop.

Do you really think we're this stupid?

 

Hey, if nothing else, I'm sure none of us can remember any instances of a person not having a living will and that coming back to totally bite the Republicans in the ass by making them look completely insane and having Congress and the President interject themselves in to a family's decision.

[southsider2k5]

Do you really think we're this stupid?

 

Hey, if nothing else, I'm sure none of us can remember any instances of a person not having a living will and that coming back to totally bite the Republicans in the ass by making them look completely insane and having Congress and the President interject themselves in to a family's decision.

 

Relax killer, I didn't think I needed the green there.

[lostfan]

Sigh, I guess if anything it's a reminder for people to have a living will. I don't have one, but I should.

[mr_genius]

http://briefingroom.thehill.com/2009/08/13...e-evil-mongers/

 

Town hall protesters are "evil-mongers," says Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.)