Y2HH Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 10:19 AM) I'd be more than happy to take on the drug companies too, as would most Dems. But considering how close-run this vote already has been...the political realities say it just can't be done all at once. If we didn't have to get 60 votes, it might well have been do-able over the Filibuster. I'd love a perfect bill, but Joe Lieberman and the 40 Republcians and Ben Nelson and Evan Bayh don't want one. Please do not ignore the fact that it was the dems that cut the sweetheart deal with the drug companies this time, and then protected them when they shot down the amendment to import foreign to increase price competition. They got support from big pharma for a measly 80 billion dollars, which won't help cover even 5% of this bill. I'd bet that will equate to 2% of phrama profits...probably less considering the added 40,000,000 customers they'll be getting. Oh, and this isn't over yet. The house is never going to agree to a bill without a public option. The senate is never going to agree to a bill with it. This is where politics will really rear it's ugly head and things will begin to fall to pieces. Edited December 21, 2009 by Y2HH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 10:21 AM) You do realize by heaping more and more costs on to the classes that actually hire people in this country the government is going to force more jobs out of the country, not less. I realize that working without health benefits is impossible for many people. This cuts small business off from some of the best talent available. Their employees either have to have spouses with insurance, they need to pay them enough to purchase insurance at individual rates, or do without and hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 11:24 AM) Please do not ignore the fact that it was the dems that cut the sweetheart deal with the drug companies this time, and then protected them when they shot down the amendment to import foreign to increase price competition. They got support from big pharma for a measly 80 billion dollars, which won't help cover even 5% of this bill. I'd bet that will equate to 2% of phrama profits...probably less considering the added 40,000,000 customers they'll be getting. Oh, and this isn't over yet. The house is never going to agree to a bill without a public option. The senate is never going to agree to a bill with it. This is where politics will really rear it's ugly head and things will begin to fall to pieces. Just watch...something very close to the Senate is going to pass. THere's no stopping it now that Reid has 60, and everyone knows the Liberals are going to cave on the public option. And yes, the Dems cut a crappy sweetheart deal with the drug companies. It's a deal with the devil, but frankly, you and I both know it was necessary. There is no way the Dems could have won by taking on both the insurance companies and the drug companies. The insurance companies alone convinced how many thousands of Americans that this bill was going to kill their grandmother, put paid people out to organize riots, and did everything they could to rip the country apart to make sure it didn't pass. Double that if you include the drug industry. On the whole...cutting a crappy sweetheart deal with the drug industry to get an insurance reform bill passed still makes this a better place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 QUOTE (Tex @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 11:28 AM) I realize that working without health benefits is impossible for many people. This cuts small business off from some of the best talent available. Their employees either have to have spouses with insurance, they need to pay them enough to purchase insurance at individual rates, or do without and hope. I posted the data aa few months ago...the U.S. small business community is actually significantly weaker and does much less hiring/job creation than small businesses do in Europe or in other OECD countries. Health insurance is almost certainly the reason why. You can't leave your job and go into th e individual insurance market without it costing you $20k a year for your family, you can't provide insurance to your workers because you're too small to negotiate. It's simple capitalism, really. The higher the costs are to start up a small business, the fewer you'll get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 10:36 AM) Just watch...something very close to the Senate is going to pass. THere's no stopping it now that Reid has 60, and everyone knows the Liberals are going to cave on the public option. And yes, the Dems cut a crappy sweetheart deal with the drug companies. It's a deal with the devil, but frankly, you and I both know it was necessary. There is no way the Dems could have won by taking on both the insurance companies and the drug companies. The insurance companies alone convinced how many thousands of Americans that this bill was going to kill their grandmother, put paid people out to organize riots, and did everything they could to rip the country apart to make sure it didn't pass. Double that if you include the drug industry. On the whole...cutting a crappy sweetheart deal with the drug industry to get an insurance reform bill passed still makes this a better place. I work for an insurance company, and we paid nobody anything to cause riots or organize in any way. And the bill Reid has doesn't do much of anything to private insurance, either. I hope you realize that...but apparently you don't. Heh. Aside from new intervention and fines that the government can start charging people and increased taxes...watch how much nothing really changes with this bill you want so badly. Edited December 21, 2009 by Y2HH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 11:57 AM) I work for an insurance company, and we paid nobody anything to cause riots or organize in any way. And the bill Reid has doesn't do much of anything to private insurance, either. I hope you realize that...but apparently you don't. Heh. Bans pre-existing conditions, bans lifetime caps or close to them, bans recissions, increases the medical loss ratio required for every company, attempts to limit the growth of insurance costs by imposing a tax on the cadillac plans (simple economics again), ends a number of other abuses, may increase competition between them, makes it possible for people who can't get insurance right now to actually get it without paying their entire business. Would have been really nice to get a public option for competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 10:59 AM) Bans pre-existing conditions, bans lifetime caps or close to them, bans recissions, increases the medical loss ratio required for every company, attempts to limit the growth of insurance costs by imposing a tax on the cadillac plans (simple economics again), ends a number of other abuses, may increase competition between them, makes it possible for people who can't get insurance right now to actually get it without paying their entire business. Doesn't ban caps. They took that out at the last minute. As I said earlier regarding "cadillac plans" - they are now DOA. They're not going to collect s*** off of that. Premiums are going to go up, not down. Oh, wait, co-ops will stop that... BS. That's the lifeline - co-ops will take away from the private insurers. Y2HH, short term, insurance gets a small bone, but long term, they get screwed royally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 QUOTE (kapkomet @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 12:02 PM) Doesn't ban caps. They took that out at the last minute. As I said earlier regarding "cadillac plans" - they are now DOA. They're not going to collect s*** off of that. Premiums are going to go up, not down. Oh, wait, co-ops will stop that... BS. That's the lifeline - co-ops will take away from the private insurers. Y2HH, short term, insurance gets a small bone, but long term, they get screwed royally. Actually they re-inserted it after it was caught. And there's nothing wrong with cadillac plans being DOA. You know as well as I do that winds up being a huge cost savings to the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 QUOTE (kapkomet @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 11:02 AM) Doesn't ban caps. They took that out at the last minute. As I said earlier regarding "cadillac plans" - they are now DOA. They're not going to collect s*** off of that. Premiums are going to go up, not down. Oh, wait, co-ops will stop that... BS. That's the lifeline - co-ops will take away from the private insurers. Y2HH, short term, insurance gets a small bone, but long term, they get screwed royally. Kap, I know exactly what's going on with the bill and how it will affect us -- they give us weekly updates. It's so convoluted that the fighting hasn't truly begun yet. The sheer amount of contradictions in the 2000 page bill will be opposite of what people are expecting. You'll all know what I mean in a year or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 11:06 AM) Actually they re-inserted it after it was caught. And there's nothing wrong with cadillac plans being DOA. You know as well as I do that winds up being a huge cost savings to the country. The country (government)? Is that all that matters? Did they put the cap measure back in yesterday, because as of Sat. night they said it was out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 QUOTE (kapkomet @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 12:08 PM) The country (government)? Is that all that matters? Did they put the cap measure back in yesterday, because as of Sat. night they said it was out... quite literally, yeah, it was caught that they changed the wording late last week and the Dems jumped at that, so it's been reworded again already. Not sure how the final wording turned out, could still have issues, but that got caught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Kickass Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 According to a number of Senators who have spoken publicly about their vote for supporting it, its a key talking point. I expect that when this gets through committee, the bill will be a bit stronger, the Stupak language will be dropped and the Nelson language may be dropped as well, because voting it out of conference is a lot less public than the votes we've seen so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 QUOTE (Rex Kicka** @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 11:14 AM) because voting it out of conference is a lot less public than the votes we've seen so far. And that's just what the most ethical, transparant congress evah wants. It will be unprecidented! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 11:37 AM) And that's just what the most ethical, transparant congress evah wants. It will be unprecidented! I wish Obama was more like past Presidents and wouldn't even try to improve how the government operates. Why he sets himself for being mocked is beyond my comprehension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_genius Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 QUOTE (Tex @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 11:50 AM) I wish Obama was more like past Presidents and wouldn't even try to improve how the government operates. Why he sets himself for being mocked is beyond my comprehension. He's being mocked because all he does is talk about improving how the government operates, he doesn't actually do anything to back up his promises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 QUOTE (Tex @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 11:50 AM) I wish Obama was more like past Presidents and wouldn't even try to improve how the government operates. Why he sets himself for being mocked is beyond my comprehension. I found this funny, since he is exactly like them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 QUOTE (mr_genius @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 12:01 PM) He's being mocked because all he does is talk about improving how the government operates, he doesn't actually do anything to back up his promises. It's a big government that took a long time to get in this shape. And, in the end, no one person in our system has enough power to make radical changes overnight. First order of business for a President should be to set the goal and start lining up support. I thought Bush did that well with his faith based initiatives. He fell far short of his stated goals, but still made some nice changes. But to get 1% you sometimes have to try for 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cknolls Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 11:37 AM) And that's just what the most ethical, transparant congress evah wants. It will be unprecidented! Yeah, still searching C-SPAN for the coverage. Where is it, Barry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Sigh Ed Hanway, CEO of Cigna, one of the nation's largest health insurance companies, will step down at the end of this year, in just over a week. When he does, he'll get $73,200,000 as compensation for a job well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 Evil mother f'er. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 QUOTE (kapkomet @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 10:36 PM) Evil mother f'er. Cigna is also the company that denied that 17 year old girl's transplant in California until approving it after she was dead a year or two ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 Yep! They are evil, too. Get them mfer's. GET THEM! I hope you get the point that is being made, but I'm sure you don't (or rather would ignore it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Leave it to an unemployed conservative to root for a douche that received a $73M bonus for doing nothing to better society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 11:05 PM) Leave it to an unemployed conservative to root for a douche that received a $73M bonus for doing nothing to better society. Less than nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 he made jobs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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