Healthcare reform

[lostfan]

I don't know Medicare that well, but in the case of VA, it certainly isn't a good example of how government could do health care well. Quality of care has been awful, as we've seen all over the news for some time. It may be cheaper, but it isn't high quality.

You mean you don't mind that the doctor doesn't wipe off the colonoscopy machine from the last patient before he puts it in your ass?

[Y2HH]

And there is some validity there, IMO, to saying that. You worked hard to get to where you are, to insure the health of your family. I can respect that.

 

Also, to be fair, I'm pretty biased when it comes to this since I work for Blue Cross -- so you will obviously get extreme opinions from me on this subject. I don't mean to come off as if I'm some outside party without an agenda...I make no bones about being biased when it comes to this subject.

 

But I have absolutely no faith that the government that couldn't/can't get Medicare working right for a small subsection of society can do it for EVERYONE, cheaper to boot.

[Balta1701]

I don't know Medicare that well, but in the case of VA, it certainly isn't a good example of how government could do health care well. Quality of care has been awful, as we've seen all over the news for some time. It may be cheaper, but it isn't high quality.

I think you're crossing up the military hospital system with the V.A. system. The data out there says otherwise. I'll go to the Rand corp for this study (they're as non-partisan as I can give you)

Key findings:

 

* VA patients were more likely to receive recommended care than patients in the national sample.

* Quality of care was better for VA patients on all measures except acute care, on which the two samples were similar.

* The greatest differences between the two samples were in areas where the VA actively measured performance.

* Performance measurement had a positive “spillover effect” on related care.

Here's another study saying the same thing.

[Y2HH]

And let me add, I also have no faith that they can do something for less (cheaper) while maintaining the same quality of care. The saying, 'you get what you pay for' is often not very misleading.

[spiderman]

Poll: Overwhelming Majority Of Americans Support Public Insurance Option

 

from that same poll:

 

It is not clear how fully the public understands the complexities of the government plan proposal, and the poll results indicate that those who said they were following the debate were somewhat less supportive.

 

Half to two-thirds of respondents said they worried that if the government guaranteed health coverage, they would see declines in the quality of their own care and in their ability to choose doctors and get needed treatment.

 

[Y2HH]

I think you're crossing up the military hospital system with the V.A. system. The data out there says otherwise. I'll go to the Rand corp for this study (they're as non-partisan as I can give you)

Here's another study saying the same thing.

 

That study was financed by the VA, I'm sure they'd love to give the uncensored opinions of the people on the receiving end of that superior healthcare without any spin!

 

Grant Support: This study was funded by a Veterans Affairs Health Services Research and Development grant

[southsider2k5]

I don't know Medicare that well, but in the case of VA, it certainly isn't a good example of how government could do health care well. Quality of care has been awful, as we've seen all over the news for some time. It may be cheaper, but it isn't high quality.

 

This is 100% true from what I have seen, and this comes from having a DAV Vietnam vet as a dad. He has been in VA care in various forms for 40 years now, and has in many different situations, actually paid for private procedures because the VA f***ed them up so badly. The most recent was a shoulder reconstruction. It wasn't pretty. But it also comes from having the lowest paid medical personel in the entire country. All of the really good ones, leave.

[Balta1701]

That study was financed by the VA, I'm sure they'd love to give the uncensored opinions of the people on the receiving end of that superior healthcare without any spin!

 

Grant Support: This study was funded by a Veterans Affairs Health Services Research and Development grant

The RAND corp study however was not.

[southsider2k5]

That study was financed by the VA, I'm sure they'd love to give the uncensored opinions of the people on the receiving end of that superior healthcare without any spin!

 

Grant Support: This study was funded by a Veterans Affairs Health Services Research and Development grant

 

[Y2HH]

The RAND corp study however was not.

 

Just from personal experience, as my father is a Viatnam Vet, those VA hospitals are almost useless to him and he opts for private care.

[BigSqwert]

Well, I am ok with that and I'll openly say so. I didn't sit on my front porch drinkin' 40z with my boyz when I was younger, I went to the free public school system so I could learn something and get a job, then worked 2 part time jobs when going to college full time so I could build a future I may have never seen -- and now I'm not f***ing apologizing because my family is covered.

 

Well at least you got to throw in a not-so-subtle racial jab. Good for you.

[Y2HH]

Well at least you got to throw in a not-so-subtle racial jab. Good for you.

 

Ok, that made me laugh.

 

And yes, probably shouldn't have done that, as now that I read it again, it does come off as racist, and it wasn't really meant to be. I was using it more in a pop culture-ish way.

[Balta1701]

Just from personal experience, as my father is a Viatnam Vet, those VA hospitals are almost useless to him and he opts for private care.

Then in that case...let those of us who have nothing have a system of the quality of the V.A...say some sort of public option...and then anyone who wants to pay for more expensive care can feel completely free to do so.

 

Which is what the President's plan happens to call for anyway.

[Y2HH]

Then in that case...let those of us who have nothing have a system of the quality of the V.A...say some sort of public option...and then anyone who wants to pay for more expensive care can feel completely free to do so.

 

Which is what the President's plan happens to call for anyway.

 

I wouldn't be against this if that's what it was in plain English, without 500 pages of fine print and what-if's and lawyer double-talk. What it is, right now, is quite vague as to how they're going to do this, who will be eligible, and why they're elegible, and how they're going to finance it.

[southsideirish71]

Then in that case...let those of us who have nothing have a system of the quality of the V.A...say some sort of public option...and then anyone who wants to pay for more expensive care can feel completely free to do so.

 

Which is what the President's plan happens to call for anyway.

 

Because its not going to work like that. The minute you give government based health care, and then tax private health care plans to partially pay for it, then you will have business stopping to offer their own plans. Basically this will be a waterfall affect of more people on the government dime. Plus how is this going to solve the illegal alien problem. Its not like its going to change their way of medical care, showing up at the emergency room with the common cold.

[Y2HH]

Because its not going to work like that. The minute you give government based health care, and then tax private health care plans to partially pay for it, then you will have business stopping to offer their own plans. Basically this will be a waterfall affect of more people on the government dime. Plus how is this going to solve the illegal alien problem. Its not like its going to change their way of medical care, showing up at the emergency room with the common cold.

 

And that's my biggest problem with it -- the language of the reform is too wishy-washy as to who qualifies and who does not...as it stands, the waterfall effect you speak of is exactly what I see happening. Granted you say it a bit better than I do -- as I'm quite against this for obvious reasons.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Y2HH

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Well, I am ok with that and I'll openly say so. I didn't sit on my front porch drinkin' 40z with my boyz when I was younger, I went to the free public school system so I could learn something and get a job, then worked 2 part time jobs when going to college full time so I could build a future I may have never seen -- and now I'm not f***ing apologizing because my family is covered.

 

 

I definitely agree with your line of thinking there. I'm just a couple years removed in college and they job I have today is a result of my hard work in school to get said job. However, for about 6 months after college I did not have health care b/c I didn't have my job yet. Did I b**** about it or complain? No. I was a little careful not to do stupid s*** for a while but that was my decision. I always could have bought coverage but I didn't. I chose to work part time so I didnt feel I had the money. If I really wanted to buy health insurace I would have gotten another job (or two) to help finance it. And I agree with your last line. I'm not sorry for doing things the right way growing up and I don't feel too sorry for some of my friends who dicked around in HS and came to class high and have still yet to get a college degree. It's their own fault.

[Balta1701]

Plus how is this going to solve the illegal alien problem. Its not like its going to change their way of medical care, showing up at the emergency room with the common cold.

Actually it might depending on how it's structured...but that's not a response. Here's the actual reply; you do not keep your health care system broken because you want to punish illegal immigrants; you fix your broken health care system because it needs fixing, and then you fix your broken immigration system so that the issue you cite no longer exists.

[NorthSideSox72]

I definitely agree with your line of thinking there. I'm just a couple years removed in college and they job I have today is a result of my hard work in school to get said job. However, for about 6 months after college I did not have health care b/c I didn't have my job yet. Did I b**** about it or complain? No. I was a little careful not to do stupid s*** for a while but that was my decision. I always could have bought coverage but I didn't. I chose to work part time so I didnt feel I had the money. If I really wanted to buy health insurace I would have gotten another job (or two) to help finance it. And I agree with your last line. I'm not sorry for doing things the right way growing up and I don't feel too sorry for some of my friends who dicked around in HS and came to class high and have still yet to get a college degree. It's their own fault.

Just to play Devil's advocate here...

 

What if you had gotten very sick during that 6 months? Or some whacko hit you while DUI? If you had only gotten ER treated and streeted, had to live 6 months (or a year or more with a pre-existing condition) while suffering through something and acquiring 10's of thousands in debt, do you think that's a good situation?

 

[lostfan]

I definitely agree with your line of thinking there. I'm just a couple years removed in college and they job I have today is a result of my hard work in school to get said job. However, for about 6 months after college I did not have health care b/c I didn't have my job yet. Did I b**** about it or complain? No. I was a little careful not to do stupid s*** for a while but that was my decision. I always could have bought coverage but I didn't. I chose to work part time so I didnt feel I had the money. If I really wanted to buy health insurace I would have gotten another job (or two) to help finance it. And I agree with your last line. I'm not sorry for doing things the right way growing up and I don't feel too sorry for some of my friends who dicked around in HS and came to class high and have still yet to get a college degree. It's their own fault.

Are you saying only people who dick around in HS and come to class high are the ones that end up having trouble staying employed? Cuz that's kind of a massive strawman.

Edited June 22, 2009 by lostfan

[Y2HH]

Are you saying only people who dick around in HS and come to class high are the ones that end up having trouble staying employed? Cuz that's kind of a massive strawman.

 

I don't think he's saying that at all -- I do, however think he's saying that he doesn't feel the need to apologize for working hard for his future when at any moment he could have died and never gotten to enjoy that future.

[Y2HH]

Just to play Devil's advocate here...

 

What if you had gotten very sick during that 6 months? Or some whacko hit you while DUI? If you had only gotten ER treated and streeted, had to live 6 months (or a year or more with a pre-existing condition) while suffering through something and acquiring 10's of thousands in debt, do you think that's a good situation?

 

He said he could have bought his own insurance but just didn't feel like and wouldn't have blamed anyone else. Back when I used to do consulting work in 2002-2004, I opted to buy my own insurance from Blue Cross, I paid a little over 100$ a month and I was fully covered.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Y2HH

[BigSqwert]

Did I b**** about it or complain? No.

Maybe you would b**** and complain if you had 3 kids and no health insurance. But I guess you can pick up a 2nd or 3rd job and pay for health insurance out of pocket.

[lostfan]

I don't think he's saying that at all -- I do, however think he's saying that he doesn't feel the need to apologize for working hard for his future when at any moment he could have died and never gotten to enjoy that future.

But who's making who apologize and for what? That isn't the issue at all. The issue is the current system is inefficient and unavailable to a large segment of the population. It's not a haves vs. have-nots thing.

[BigSqwert]

He said he could have bought his own insurance but just didn't feel like and wouldn't have blamed anyone else. Back when I used to do consulting work in 2002-2004, I opted to buy my own insurance from Blue Cross, I paid a little over 100$ a month and I was fully covered.

Well that's great that you did but not everyone is as fortunate as you are with an excess of discretionary income.