Healthcare reform

[Balta1701]

When I want to buy a TV, I'm not FORCED to buy it only in IL...insurance should be no different. There are MANY insurance companies out there, a lot of them non-profits, that many of you would love to be able to negotiate with.

But here's the exact comparison...when you go to buy a TV, you buy that TV expecting that it will be a TV. When you push the power button, it will turn on. If you went across state lines to buy a TV and you thought you could get it for 1/2 price, but there was a hidden note that said "any time it is above 50% humidity this TV will not work", you probably wouldn't buy that TV. However, for insurance, you're very, very unlikely to go through the details of exactly every single thing that is covered before buying it. Then, you get Leukemia, and you discover it isn't covered.

 

This is the "Race to the bottom" effect we talk about when we say there's a key flaw in the type of competition you describe...and you can't pretend we wouldn't see that, because we've already seen exactly that happen with banking deregulation. Of course, to be bi-partisan, there is a version of exactly this sort of competition allowed in the bill, where states can band together as groups and decide to allow purchasing across their lines on their own. It's risky in the race-to-the-bottom sense, but it's basically what you want.

[Y2HH]

But here's the exact comparison...when you go to buy a TV, you buy that TV expecting that it will be a TV. When you push the power button, it will turn on. If you went across state lines to buy a TV and you thought you could get it for 1/2 price, but there was a hidden note that said "any time it is above 50% humidity this TV will not work", you probably wouldn't buy that TV. However, for insurance, you're very, very unlikely to go through the details of exactly every single thing that is covered before buying it. Then, you get Leukemia, and you discover it isn't covered.

 

This is the "Race to the bottom" effect we talk about when we say there's a key flaw in the type of competition you describe...and you can't pretend we wouldn't see that, because we've already seen exactly that happen with banking deregulation. Of course, to be bi-partisan, there is a version of exactly this sort of competition allowed in the bill, where states can band together as groups and decide to allow purchasing across their lines on their own. It's risky in the race-to-the-bottom sense, but it's basically what you want.

 

If you buy something as important as health insurance without going through what it's providing you, then you deserve to end up with a TV that doesn't turn on when the humidity is above 50%. That, in my opinion, is on the consumers end to properly do research. There IS consumer responsibility involved in everything. Ignorance does not equal innocence.

[Balta1701]

If you buy something as important as health insurance without going through what it's providing you, then you deserve to end up with a TV that doesn't turn on when the humidity is above 50%. That, in my opinion, is on the consumers end to properly do research. There IS consumer responsibility involved in everything. Ignorance does not equal innocence.

And what do you think happens when a person gets an illness that isn't covered? Are they allowed to die, or does it wind up on the taxpayers? You already know the answer to that.

[Y2HH]

And what do you think happens when a person gets an illness that isn't covered? Are they allowed to die, or does it wind up on the taxpayers? You already know the answer to that.

 

It's going to end up on the taxpayers either way, but that's besides the point.

 

There should be NO illnesses that aren't covered. I work at Blue Cross IL, and I personally don't know of any plan we have that doesn't cover specific illnesses, it covers them all. The only things NOT covered are unproven treatments for said illnesses, and doctors who have these methods performed should know better and NOT perform them. The problem is they don't care, because one way or another they'll get paid. If the AMA approves certain drugs/treatments, it's covered by us...without exception. What's not covered are unproven treatments the AMA says should not be administered as they're a waste of time/resources.

 

This is another problem entirely. When a person is sick and life becomes no fun to live, they look for ANY lifeline to get well again. Doctors often prey on this -- and begin to offer alternative treatments (very costly and unproven) -- and of course at that point the patient will try anything, even if it doesn't have a prayer in working...doctors who do this should be stripped of their licenses...and it happens a LOT.

 

And for every 1 anomaly in which it works, that patient probably would have gotten well without that fake costly treatment, but there is no way to prove that. Either way, for every anomaly, there are thousands of cases where the costly treatment does nothing, and the patient is stuck with the bill because the insurance company doesn't cover non AMA approved methods...and they shouldn't.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Y2HH

[Texsox]

It's going to end up on the taxpayers either way, but that's besides the point.

 

There should be NO illnesses that aren't covered. I work at Blue Cross IL, and I personally don't know of any plan we have that doesn't cover specific illnesses, it covers them all. The only things NOT covered are unproven treatments for said illnesses, and doctors who have these methods performed should know better and NOT perform them. The problem is they don't care, because one way or another they'll get paid. If the AMA approves certain drugs/treatments, it's covered by us...without exception. What's not covered are unproven treatments the AMA says should not be administered as they're a waste of time/resources.

 

This is another problem entirely. When a person is sick and life becomes no fun to live, they look for ANY lifeline to get well again. Doctors often prey on this -- and begin to offer alternative treatments (very costly and unproven) -- and of course at that point the patient will try anything, even if it doesn't have a prayer in working...doctors who do this should be stripped of their licenses...and it happens a LOT.

 

And for every 1 anomaly in which it works, that patient probably would have gotten well without that fake costly treatment, but there is no way to prove that. Either way, for every anomaly, there are thousands of cases where the costly treatment does nothing, and the patient is stuck with the bill because the insurance company doesn't cover non AMA approved methods...and they shouldn't.

 

Doesn't every treatment go through a period of time when it is not AMA approved? Our approval cycle os much longer than most other countries.

[bmags]

That's great, but there are caps and in addition to that there have been numerous, numerous cases of people being dropped from their coverage when they get a disease because they were found to have not marked that they had an unrelated pre-existing disease that was so mild they didn't know they qualified.

 

I find it kind of funny there is so much harping for cost controls on the doctors and hospitals now, because in the beginning there was a lot of buls*** about how you were taking away doctors profits. And people like doctors. So we know that wasn't going to happen.

[Y2HH]

Doesn't every treatment go through a period of time when it is not AMA approved? Our approval cycle os much longer than most other countries.

 

It's the AMA, not much the insurance companies can do about the AMA. If that's true, then maybe the AMA needs reforms, as well.

[bmags]

For the record, now having been out of the country a while, Ive learned that most developing countries revere the FDA and AMA and since they don't have the ability to create similar institutions, merely tag off of what the FDA makes legal as what's legal in their country. However, Europes are also much faster, and Brazil has now tagged off of them.

[Y2HH]

That's great, but there are caps and in addition to that there have been numerous, numerous cases of people being dropped from their coverage when they get a disease because they were found to have not marked that they had an unrelated pre-existing disease that was so mild they didn't know they qualified.

 

I find it kind of funny there is so much harping for cost controls on the doctors and hospitals now, because in the beginning there was a lot of buls*** about how you were taking away doctors profits. And people like doctors. So we know that wasn't going to happen.

 

And I'm all for reforming those types of things.

 

I'm absolutely against being able to drop people already covered and having caps.

 

I'm not against some of the proposed reforms on the insurance industry, I think it needs to apply to ALL insurance, including Auto, Life, etc...

 

But they still have to do something about the fact the doctors/hospitals charge whatever they want. One reform without the other is absolutely meaningless. All this does is change who is paying for it, not the amount being paid...which is the mother f***ing point in the first place.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Y2HH

[bmags]

And I'm all for reforming those types of things.

 

I'm absolutely against being able to drop people already covered and having caps.

 

I'm not against some of the proposed reforms on the insurance industry, I think it needs to apply to ALL insurance, including Auto, Life, etc...

 

But they still have to do something about the fact the doctors/hospitals charge whatever they want. One reform without the other is absolutely meaningless. All this does is change who is paying for it, not the amount being paid...which is the mother f***ing point in the first place.

 

Well, then I guess we just have to hope this transparency in pricing thing works out to drive costs down.

[Texsox]

People only making 20,000 have other issues altogether. They'd be better of going on welfare and having free health care as it is...not to mention they'd make more than 20k.

 

Are you really advocating people who make $10 to $12.50 per hour to quit and go on public assistance?

[Texsox]

It's the AMA, not much the insurance companies can do about the AMA. If that's true, then maybe the AMA needs reforms, as well.

 

 

The insurance industry doesn't have to use the AMA. They would also save some money because they could stop lobbying the AMA to not approve certain procedures.

[Y2HH]

The insurance industry doesn't have to use the AMA. They would also save some money because they could stop lobbying the AMA to not approve certain procedures.

 

They have to use someone, and the AMA is the best available choice.

[Y2HH]

Are you really advocating people who make $10 to $12.50 per hour to quit and go on public assistance?

 

In the current world, with the value of the dollar what it is, 10-12.50$ isn't enough to live on. The world sucks...life isn't fair. Get another job.

 

I never advocate going on welfare, but if that's all the effort their willing to put fourth, then they can either deal with it, or do something to move along...either way, it sucks for them.

 

Why don't you help them out, since you seem to live in some sort of utopia?

 

Look, life is a b**** sometimes...and people making that little, for whatever reason, life won't be easy for them...but it is what it is.

 

That's life.

[BigSqwert]

In the current world, with the value of the dollar what it is, 10-12.50$ isn't enough to live on. The world sucks...life isn't fair. Get another job.

Great answer. That's so easy to do these days. Too many jobs to go around.

[Y2HH]

Great answer. That's so easy to do these days. Too many jobs to go around.

 

I outright said it wasn't easy.

 

Life isn't fair, I know.

 

And Utopia doesn't exist, either...if it did, I'd be there. So would you.

 

This is what it is, either make the best of it, or fall to your knees and die miserable. What else do you want me to do, wave a magic wand and make it all better?

[GoSox05]

All this talk about making things a "utopia" is a bunch of bulls***.

[Y2HH]

All this talk about making things a "utopia" is a bunch of bulls***.

 

It is.

 

So is crying that life is hard for some people.

 

It's as obvious and telling me the sky is blue when the sun it out.

 

It solves nothing.

[Texsox]

In the current world, with the value of the dollar what it is, 10-12.50$ isn't enough to live on. The world sucks...life isn't fair. Get another job.

 

I never advocate going on welfare, but if that's all the effort their willing to put fourth, then they can either deal with it, or do something to move along...either way, it sucks for them.

 

Why don't you help them out, since you seem to live in some sort of utopia?

 

Look, life is a b**** sometimes...and people making that little, for whatever reason, life won't be easy for them...but it is what it is.

 

That's life.

 

That is what entry level jobs pay in much of the country. That is what businesses, your savior in all this, pay their employees. That isn't utopia, that is the reality for millions and millions of Americans and what the leadership in this country is trying to work with.

 

Your solution is it sucks to be these people. Hopefully we can do better.

[Texsox]

It is.

 

So is crying that life is hard for some people.

 

It's as obvious and telling me the sky is blue when the sun it out.

 

It solves nothing.

 

No one is crying life is hard except you. Small businesses, the ones least likely to outsource jobs, face the challenge of spending 25% or more of their payroll on health insurance benefits for their employees or have their employees do without. Your solution is saying life sucks, work for a health insurance company that can afford higher salaries and better benefits.

[Texsox]

And 28% of American households earn less than $25,000. Life is hard and sucks for a lot of Americans.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_inc...e_United_States

[Y2HH]

No one is crying life is hard except you. Small businesses, the ones least likely to outsource jobs, face the challenge of spending 25% or more of their payroll on health insurance benefits for their employees or have their employees do without. Your solution is saying life sucks, work for a health insurance company that can afford higher salaries and better benefits.

 

I'm not crying at all.

 

You are.

 

You brought it up that life is basically unfair.

 

There isn't ANYTHING WE, OR THE GOVERNMENT CAN DO ABOUT THIS...YOU CAN KEEP TALKING ABOUT IT, AND IT'S ALL f***ING NONSENSE.

 

Companies will not pay more if they don't have too pay more...that's the nature of profits. If businesses aren't making profits, there is no point in being IN business in the first place, so then there are no jobs.

 

Some of you really need to get out more and realize there is no USA like there once was. People have the means to get the same products elsewhere, for less...so they WILL.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Y2HH

[Y2HH]

Forget it, I deleted my bad posts.

 

I'm done talking about this with you in specific now.

[NorthSideSox72]

I'm not crying at all.

 

You are.

 

You brought it up that life is basically unfair.

 

There isn't ANYTHING WE, OR THE GOVERNMENT CAN DO ABOUT THIS...YOU CAN KEEP TALKING ABOUT IT, AND IT'S ALL f***ING NONSENSE.

 

Companies will not pay more if they don't have too pay more...that's the nature of profits. If businesses aren't making profits, there is no point in being IN business in the first place, so then there are no jobs.

 

Some of you really need to get out more and realize there is no USA like there once was. People have the means to get the same products elsewhere, for less...so they WILL.

Actually, there are lots of things we can do about it. Not sure why you think we are somehow helpless in this as a nation. No one here, other than you, is saying that we can reach Utopia. We're saying it can be better, which you seem to scoff at for no apparent reason.

 

 

[Y2HH]

Actually, there are lots of things we can do about it. Not sure why you think we are somehow helpless in this as a nation. No one here, other than you, is saying that we can reach Utopia. We're saying it can be better, which you seem to scoff at for no apparent reason.

 

No I don't scoff at it...I scoff at this right here, what you just did.

 

"We can be better."

 

Sure, and that's easy to say.

 

We seem to say that a lot, only it's NOT getting better, not on any front, and I'm talking all fronts ASIDE from the topic of this debate. Good jobs are harder to find because they're being shipped off for 3rd world labor. Take Textile for instance...a DEAD American industry...gone...and the people who did those jobs have no other useful skills at this age. So, what exactly can we do better in this regard?

 

How?

 

Let's see some REAL solutions that companies will ACTUALLY implement, instead of Utopian based suggestions that companies "do without profits for the betterment of their fellow man", which isn't happening. EVER.

 

Otherwise it's a bunch of nothing...talk, talk, and more talk...with very little in the way of action that will actually be taken.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Y2HH