Healthcare reform

[Y2HH]

So, a poster presents actual evidence... you say the opposite, without any evidence, and that you will say nothing more, and that everyone else is reading propaganda.

 

Did I miss anything?

 

You call that actual evidence? A graphic?

 

You guys are hilarious.

 

I can post some articles where Daley claims his hiring practices are fair, too. Or that he wasn't involved in any back room deals in streets and san or land management contracts going to relatives/friends. Doesn't mean they're true just because someone printed them or drew up an official looking graphic in his defense.

 

Back on point -- my father is a veteran -- the VA sucks, I know this FIRST hand...I have no willingness to proove myself right, either. Find yourself a veteran and talk to them rather than asking me to do it for you.

Edited July 28, 2009 by Y2HH

[Y2HH]

Any proposed solutions other than "everything sucks"?

 

First and foremost, the Medicare system is backed up by the private insurance premiums -- they help subsidize it since Medicare contracts are dictated to the insurance companies. So while that works when you can offload the cost to the younger people with private insurance contracts (such as they do now), if there was no such crowd to pass these costs onto, then what?

 

There are a lot of questions, and a lot of answers flying around here -- from one side or the other side, constantly refuting each and every point made.

 

I'm in the camp that knows there is a problem, but I'm also not arrogant enough to think that I have all the answers to a problem as complex as this -- also, let's keep in mind that this has been going on for years and years and they've been working on fixing it now (in the current administration) for what, 4 weeks and what we have is a document full of legal jargon upwards of 1300 pages that nobody has read? Sounds like an awesome plan. I say we put it into effect immediately -- I'm sure it'll solve everything.

 

If they're going to do this right, it should be done in phases to make sure they've got all the loopholes closed, all the i's dotted and all the t's crossed, and move on from there. How, I wish I had such an answer to such a complex problem...but I don't. And pointing to things like the VA or Medicare as solutions is crazy, because neither of them work even a little without the current system supporting them.

 

Edit: This guy thinks the VA hospitals are top notch!

 

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7718565

 

These people all seem to have had positive VA experiences, too.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...0401394_pf.html

 

Man I wish my everyday healthcare could be this awesome.

Edited July 28, 2009 by Y2HH

[bmags]

On the graphic there are numbers. Numbers that signify data. Data collected from polling people. People who use the services in question.

 

Healthcare reform has been a topic for half a century, at least, longer in fact. There are senators/governors/states that have been working on a way to fix this for much longer than four months. What is happening now is they are trying to pass it, and having to deal with many people who have only been working on it for four weeks, don't want to see anything change, and are getting money to make sure that happens.

[Y2HH]

On the graphic there are numbers. Numbers that signify data. Data collected from polling people. People who use the services in question.

 

Healthcare reform has been a topic for half a century, at least, longer in fact. There are senators/governors/states that have been working on a way to fix this for much longer than four months. What is happening now is they are trying to pass it, and having to deal with many people who have only been working on it for four weeks, don't want to see anything change, and are getting money to make sure that happens.

 

Everyone here is smart enough to know polls can be manipulated to show exactly what you want.

 

The two links I posted say enough, too. But let's ignore those, after all, they weren't in a neat graphic.

 

And while yes, it's been a "topic of reform", this current reform is ALL NEW, and they're trying their hardest to shove it through whether it's ready or not, and I think that's the big mistake. Pushing law/reform before filling in all the cracks is just crazy as far as I'm concerned. It's just asking people to come out of the woodwork to leech the system dry.

Edited July 28, 2009 by Y2HH

[StrangeSox]

Everyone knows that you can manipulate any poll to say whatever you want so all polls/ surveys are meaningless (unless I find one that agrees with what I'm saying, then its 100% factual).

 

[/conservative hand-waving of contradictory data]

 

edit: hahahahahaha did I call it or what?

 

Point out the flawed methodology. You can't just reject any data set that you don't like on the basis that you don't like it. If you're going to accuse them of fraud, you've got the burden of proof. Show where the data is skewed. Show where their methodology is biased.

Edited July 28, 2009 by StrangeSox

[lostfan]

You call that actual evidence? A graphic?

 

You guys are hilarious.

 

I can post some articles where Daley claims his hiring practices are fair, too. Or that he wasn't involved in any back room deals in streets and san or land management contracts going to relatives/friends. Doesn't mean they're true just because someone printed them or drew up an official looking graphic in his defense.

 

Back on point -- my father is a veteran -- the VA sucks, I know this FIRST hand...I have no willingness to proove myself right, either. Find yourself a veteran and talk to them rather than asking me to do it for you.

Somewhere in this thread you gave a de facto admission that you're willing to call bulls*** on just about anything meaning you can't be convinced by anything anyone post. Someone posted the 8-page New Yorker article which was written by a Harvard-educated surgeon and just about the most comprehensive single piece I've seen, and you pretty much threw the bulls*** flag saying you couldn't be sure the source was credible. In response, you give anecdotal accounts. I'd say NorthsideSox (who is not exactly a liberal activist screaming for a government takeover of healthcare) has a point.

[Y2HH]

Everyone knows that you can manipulate any poll to say whatever you want so all polls/ surveys are meaningless (unless I find one that agrees with what I'm saying, then its 100% factual).

 

[/conservative hand-waving of contradictory data]

 

edit: hahahahahaha did I call it or what?

 

Point out the flawed methodology. You can't just reject any data set that you don't like on the basis that you don't like it. If you're going to accuse them of fraud, you've got the burden of proof. Show where the data is skewed. Show where their methodology is biased.

 

Yea, read this for me:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...0401394_pf.html

 

I've posted it, you ignored it. Read it, and then read it again.

 

Then come back and tell me, who knows first hand how wonderful the VA system is since I have a father who was exposed to agent orange in Vietnam, how wonderful the system is.

 

Oh, and lean on your skewed pool data, too.

 

For the record, I'm not a republican, either...so you fail.

[lostfan]

Everyone here is smart enough to know polls can be manipulated to show exactly what you want.

 

The two links I posted say enough, too. But let's ignore those, after all, they weren't in a neat graphic.

 

And while yes, it's been a "topic of reform", this current reform is ALL NEW, and they're trying their hardest to shove it through whether it's ready or not, and I think that's the big mistake. Pushing law/reform before filling in all the cracks is just crazy as far as I'm concerned. It's just asking people to come out of the woodwork to leech the system dry.

No the topic is not new. It's been attempted before and failed, and put on the back burner. Why do you suppose the document is 1300 pages?

[bmags]

I'm guessing your two links fall in the 17%.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Yea, read this for me:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...0401394_pf.html

 

I've posted it, you ignored it. Read it, and then read it again.

 

Then come back and tell me, who knows first hand how wonderful the VA system is since I have a father who was exposed to agent orange in Vietnam, how wonderful the system is.

 

Oh, and lean on your skewed pool data, too.

 

For the record, I'm not a republican, either...so you fail.

1. I think I have detected a disconnect here - the VA "system" that was being referred to by Balta and myself and others was not a reference to the hospital facilities and staff, but the way in which that care is managed. The hospitals are a mess, I think you will get no argument there.

 

2. "so you fail"? That's the best you can do?

 

[Y2HH]

No the topic is not new. It's been attempted before and failed, and put on the back burner. Why do you suppose the document is 1300 pages?

 

Everything done in the last 5 years is 1300 pages, it's how you sneak the pork through. I think it's become a requirement now, no matter how new or old it is.

[StrangeSox]

I've only occasionally read this thread, so I didn't really ignore anything.

 

Data gathering > anecdotal claims. That doesn't mean that the anecdotes aren't true or that there aren't problems but that anecdotal evidence doesn't extrapolate to a broader level.

 

How is the data skewed? You're just hand-waving away anything you don't agree with. Confirmation bias in full effect.

 

I didn't say Republican either, but it is an incredibly common tactic of conservatives & R's to immediately dismiss any poll with unfavorable results without explaining why the poll is flawed.

[lostfan]

Everything done in the last 5 years is 1300 pages, it's how you sneak the pork through. I think it's become a requirement now, no matter how new or old it is.

Pork is another issue entirely.

[Y2HH]

1. I think I have detected a disconnect here - the VA "system" that was being referred to by Balta and myself and others was not a reference to the hospital facilities and staff, but the way in which that care is managed. The hospitals are a mess, I think you will get no argument there.

 

2. "so you fail"? That's the best you can do?

 

Well this IS a disconnect.

 

How can you say the care is managed well with the current state of how that care is actually being performed?

 

That makes no sense to me.

 

None.

 

If it was managed well, we wouldn't have these issues.

[Y2HH]

I've only occasionally read this thread, so I didn't really ignore anything.

 

Data gathering > anecdotal claims. That doesn't mean that the anecdotes aren't true or that there aren't problems but that anecdotal evidence doesn't extrapolate to a broader level.

 

How is the data skewed? You're just hand-waving away anything you don't agree with. Confirmation bias in full effect.

 

I didn't say Republican either, but it is an incredibly common tactic of conservatives & R's to immediately dismiss any poll with unfavorable results without explaining why the poll is flawed.

 

I dismiss all polls, including ones that happen to take side with what I feel is right because I know how easy they are to manipulate.

 

Good enough?

Edited July 28, 2009 by Y2HH

[NorthSideSox72]

Pork is another issue entirely.

Exactly - and a big one too.

 

But this bill at 1300 pages is a different problem (and it is indeed a problem, as there is no way it can be remotely understood to be voted on).

 

[NorthSideSox72]

I dismiss all polls, including ones that happen to take side with what I feel is right.

 

Good enough?

So you would prefer to take the evidence of one person's experience, over that of thousands?

 

Don't get me wrong, I use personal experience stories in decisions too, but that is usually in the absence of scientific data.

 

[Y2HH]

Exactly - and a big one too.

 

But this bill at 1300 pages is a different problem (and it is indeed a problem, as there is no way it can be remotely understood to be voted on).

 

I think this is all I'm trying to actually convey here -- I'm not saying something doesn't need to be done...I'm just afraid they're going to push this 1300 page behemoth through, and there is no way this turns out well.

 

This should be something that is drafted cleanly, it should be short and to the point and every loophole closed in easy to read writing...1300 pages...without even having read it, I bet there are 200+ contradictions in that document...that's my big problem here.

 

I'm sure there are parts of medicare/VA that work really well -- key word is parts -- but the entire system they are running in does NOT work. If we can take good idead, mesh the together in a workable way, I'd be all for that. But I don't want people pointing to a system that sucks just because one facet of that system happens to be wonderful, and that's what I've been arguing against with my past few posts.

 

The VA and Medicare are NOT great systems...they may have some good components, but their overall systems are NOT good, so to use them to draft this bill is crazy.

[southsider2k5]

Do your parents and grandparents refuse government controlled Medicare?

 

Which is exactly why the CBO projected numbers for this are garbage. The estimates of only 39,000,000 people in this program by 2019 are a joke. I'd be shocked if it was less than double that number. As soon as taxes are started getting paid for government health care, people are going to view it as another entitlement. Businesses are going to drop cover en masse because it will be cheaper for them in the long run. No one will buy private health care because the government will undercut their pricing.

[StrangeSox]

I dismiss all polls, including ones that happen to take side with what I feel is right because I know how easy they are to manipulate.

 

Good enough?

 

No, its still completely illogical.

[Y2HH]

So you would prefer to take the evidence of one person's experience, over that of thousands?

 

Don't get me wrong, I use personal experience stories in decisions too, but that is usually in the absence of scientific data.

 

Depends -- if those thousands were actually anonymous thousands from various random areas -- maybe I'd trust it, but I know how polls tend to work, and that's not it. They tend to try to get their data from crowds that will deliver them the answers they're looking for.

 

It'd be like going to San Francisco and asking 1000 people if gay marriage should be allowed, and then going to po-dunk Arkansas and asking the same question of a 1000 more...I can tell you how those two polls will turn out.

[southsider2k5]

So, a poster presents actual evidence... you say the opposite, without any evidence, and that you will say nothing more, and that everyone else is reading propaganda.

 

Did I miss anything?

 

If you would like to hear some great 1st hand stories about why the VA sucks, I could tell you my dads stories starting when he got blown through a wall during a bombing run in 1969 in Vietnam and running up until today.

 

I could also give some of the first hand experiences he has had with many of the other governmental programs he has gotten the run around in since 1983 when he was deemed unable to work anymore.

[StrangeSox]

Depends -- if those thousands were actually anonymous thousands from various random areas -- maybe I'd trust it, but I know how polls tend to work, and that's not it. They tend to try to get their data from crowds that will deliver them the answers they're looking for.

 

It'd be like going to San Francisco and asking 1000 people if gay marriage should be allowed, and then going to po-dunk Arkansas and asking the same question of a 1000 more...I can tell you how those two polls will turn out.

 

So tell me what the obviously flawed methodology in this poll is. That's why they report things like that--so people can check if they're fudging numbers.

[Y2HH]

Which is exactly why the CBO projected numbers for this are garbage. The estimates of only 39,000,000 people in this program by 2019 are a joke. I'd be shocked if it was less than double that number. As soon as taxes are started getting paid for government health care, people are going to view it as another entitlement. Businesses are going to drop cover en masse because it will be cheaper for them in the long run. No one will buy private health care because the government will undercut their pricing.

 

This is the point people seem to miss when it comes to government run programs. Entitlement aside, the fact is, the government is the only entity in the free world that is able to run a business in the red -- it can be in debt, it can over spend and it can make NO money and never be affected.

 

If private health insurance has to compete with an entity that doesn't have to make a profit, they stand no chance. And that's how government insurance would work. If they went over budget -- so what -- tax people -- tax something, anything...doesn't matter. If Blue Cross, for example, doesn't make a profit, they go bankrupt.

 

Big difference.

[StrangeSox]

No, it's not.

 

Yes, it is. Dismissing all polls because they can be manipulated is not logical. Dismissing polls that are manipulated is.

 

Scientific data can be manipulated, so that's why we have peer-review. There's ways to verify data and check methodologies. If you find a problem, then it is logical to dismiss.

 

You're setting it up to reject any data sets aside from personal anecdotes which is a completely illogical position to argue from.

Edited July 28, 2009 by StrangeSox