lostfan Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 03:10 PM) You know what's awesome? Straw men. I love straw men. So what you're saying is you hate scarecrows? What the hell is your problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Martyr! [/other conservative hand-wave] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 02:11 PM) Holy strawman. No one is belittling you, only the validity of your arguments. You're not a thin-skinned guy, why do this? Because it gets old to question things, and when you have questions around here people do nothing but try to show you why you shouldn't have questions and you should just believe stuff because it's on the internet, or in a poll, or written in some journal. I don't take things for fact so easily, and I find it insulting when people question why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Ok this is getting silly, nobody was getting personal with anybody until like 5 minutes ago when this thread was inexplicably re-defined into a thread ganging up on Y2HH (when nobody is doing that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 I find it insulting when people hand-wave away anything they don't like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 02:14 PM) I find it insulting when people hand-wave away anything they don't like. The VA is NOT run well, regardless of what what "poll" says. That's all I have to say. I posted numerous stories of the horror that is the VA system, in the reality of how it ACTUALLY works, not in how some "poll" showed it worked...but that was ignored. I guess I need to find a "poll" showing how sucktastic is actually is, than maybe you will believe me! Edited July 28, 2009 by Y2HH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 03:13 PM) Because it gets old to question things, and when you have questions around here people do nothing but try to show you why you shouldn't have questions and you should just believe stuff because it's on the internet, or in a poll, or written in some journal. I don't take things for fact so easily, and I find it insulting when people question why. bmags and StrangeSox explained several times each in detail why they don't agree with you, and in response you fall on your sword and say they're insulting you. Besides bmags's sarcastic Palin comparison (ironically in a response to you claiming to be insulted) not a single person was doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 (edited) Assertions without supporting data don't mean much. edit: and anecdotes aren't supporting data. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evi...nd_faulty_logic Edited July 28, 2009 by StrangeSox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 02:16 PM) Assertions without supporting data don't mean much. I did support my assertion that the VA sucks...and it was dismissed. I can see you didn't even read it. My point prooven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 You question everything, except select first-hand accounts that fit with your ideology, and clearly applicable to the greater whole. This cannot be questioned, or disputed, because how do you dispute someone's stories? Put them in context? Context is liberal. Collect data? No. And if you believe finding stories that would contradict the first stories could be used to question beliefs, ooh boy, you are dead wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 02:16 PM) Assertions without supporting data don't mean much. edit: and anecdotes aren't supporting data. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evi...nd_faulty_logic So you need a poll that must not have questioned all of the veterans throughout the US that say how sucktastic the VA system is in order to be taken as fact? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 02:18 PM) I did support my assertion that the VA sucks...and it was dismissed. I can see you didn't even read it. My point prooven. Polls=unreliable, easily manipulated, victims of bias Anecdotes=airtight proof of a prior conclusions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 02:19 PM) So you need a poll that must not have questioned all of the veterans throughout the US that say how sucktastic the VA system is in order to be taken as fact? I need statistical data, not anecdotes. Anecdote != data or evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 02:19 PM) Polls=unreliable, easily manipulated, victims of bias Anecdotes=airtight proof of a prior conclusions I didn't say that, either. I did say that VA/Medicare system is not very good -- regardless of what that poll showed. Feel free to attack me on that -- I stand firm on it...without poll evidence. Edited July 28, 2009 by Y2HH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 ...because of anecdotes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 02:20 PM) I didn't say that, either. I did say that VA/Medicare system is not very good -- regardless of what that poll showed. Feel free to attack me on that -- I stand firm on it...without poll evidence. The only evidence so far is your one familial story. Which is not invalid, by the way, it does carry water. But for you to take that one story as gospel, and 100% fully dismiss not only this very large-scale poll but ALL polls, is just silly. You have made it impossible to have a discussion with you on this topic, since you have laid waste the very idea of any data other than your family being valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 02:21 PM) ...because of anecdotes. Yes, because of my anecdotal first hand experience with the VA, I think it sucks. I don't need a poll to know what I saw, to know how things were handled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 02:22 PM) The only evidence so far is your one familial story. Which is not invalid, by the way, it does carry water. But for you to take that one story as gospel, and 100% fully dismiss not only this very large-scale poll but ALL polls, is just silly. You have made it impossible to have a discussion with you on this topic, since you have laid waste the very idea of any data other than your family being valid. It wasn't just my story -- someone else, I think it was southsider, has a similar story. So as it stands, the ONLY two people with ACTUAL experience with the VA around here say it sucks... So of the two people polled on Soxtalk with actual VA experience...100% of them say it sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 02:23 PM) Yes, because of my anecdotal first hand experience with the VA, I think it sucks. I don't need a poll to know what I saw, to know how things were handled. That is what we call a "hasty generalization," which is a logical fallacy. You're taking a very small subset that can come under a lot of confirmation bias and generalizing it to a nationwide system with millions of people. That's why arguments via anecdotes don't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 02:23 PM) Yes, because of my anecdotal first hand experience with the VA, I think it sucks. I don't need a poll to know what I saw, to know how things were handled. I'd actually love to hear more details of your personal story. That would be valuable. Dismissing anything other than that story - not so valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 02:24 PM) That is what we call a "hasty generalization," which is a logical fallacy. You're taking a very small subset that can come under a lot of confirmation bias and generalizing it to a nationwide system with millions of people. That's why arguments via anecdotes don't work. I won't claim to be without bias when it comes to this entire subject -- from what I know of the VA, first hand, combined with working in the private insurance sector, you could see where my bias would lie. That said, even I know something has to be done with the state of this countries healthcare -- and I have the BEST healthcare plan you can get. But I also recognize that this 1300+ page behemoth of a bill isn't the answer no matter what polls say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 02:28 PM) But I also recognize that this 1300+ page behemoth of a bill isn't the answer no matter what polls say. And we all seem to agree that this 1300 page behemoth is probably a bad idea, but then you still somehow have to throw in a jab at a poll, which by the way isn't even addressing the bill itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 02:29 PM) And we all seem to agree that this 1300 page behemoth is probably a bad idea, but then you still somehow have to throw in a jab at a poll, which by the way isn't even addressing the bill itself. Fair enough, I retract my poll jab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 I have experience with the VA. My friends father just had elbow surgery last year through VA. He's now playing tennis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 02:40 PM) I have experience with the VA. My friends father just had elbow surgery last year through VA. He's now playing tennis. The VA is awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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