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Healthcare reform


kapkomet

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QUOTE (kapkomet @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 11:55 AM)
You're (not you personally, people with the stance they have about abortion) like to throw that in people's faces. It's stupid - SO concerned about infant mortality rates when abortions kill millions. Ok. Don't even talk to me about that, because it's not worth my time.

Holy s***. You've gone off the deep end.

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Huh? That doesn't have anything to do with morals. It's a legit question, completely separate from abortion which can only be used as a massive red herring. Is there something we could be doing to make this better? Is there something we're doing wrong? Why can't we ask that about ourselves?

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Politics Hurts My Brain:

 

CNN just broke some important news. House leaders and Blue Dog Democrats have reached an agreement--the terms of which remain mostly unclear--that will allow the Energy and Commerce Committee to pass health care legislation by weeks end. As part of the arrangement, though leaders have agreed to postpone a vote on the final legislation until after August recess comes to an end.

 

In the meantime, leaders will stitch together a final package, stitching together the portions of the bill that have been amended by the Energy and Commerce, Ways and Means, and Education and Labor Committees.

 

The only figure that's been reported thus far is that Blue Dogs have lowered the cost of the legislation by about $100 billion. But we'll get you more details the moment they're available.

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QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 12:00 PM)
Huh? That doesn't have anything to do with morals. It's a legit question, completely separate from abortion which can only be used as a massive red herring. Is there something we could be doing to make this better? Is there something we're doing wrong? Why can't we ask that about ourselves?

Taking over my health care is a moral question. If you want to deal with morality, then deal with all of it, and quit cherry picking what liberty you want to take away from me. I'm sick and damn tired of the government telling me what lightbulbs I have to use, how much water is in my toilet, who my doctor will be, etc. etc. etc. Where does it stop? It's ok, though, government is the only answer to evil profit making. Resdistribute wealth... We have RIGHTS TO HAPPINESS now - we all must be "more equal". Or something. It's all tied together - the government wants more and more power, and we just gladly hand it over. It becomes a moral question because there's that right to choose for women, yet, we can't choose our own f***ing health care. Right. Now I'll get "straw man". Uh huh. Everything's a straw man.

 

 

 

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QUOTE (kapkomet @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 11:51 AM)
Oh here we go. EVIL COMPANIES MAKING PROFITS! HOW DARE THEY!

 

Government comes in, has NO profit incentive, will cut prices, which causes the other companies to lose money, which shuts them down. But that's ok. Competition sucks, especially when said competition is ADMITTED to making these companies not profit to kill them.

 

f*** profits. Everything should be given to the government to spread back to the nanny state. It's obviously the best solution to everything.

 

What innovations come from profit for health insurers? What's the profit motivating there?

 

Hypothetical

If we could provide the exact same system as now but strictly through non-profit methods so that the costs are lower, why should I be against this? Appeal to/ against an ideological buzzword doesn't count, either.

 

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QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 12:31 PM)
What innovations come from profit for health insurers? What's the profit motivating there?

 

Hypothetical

If we could provide the exact same system as now but strictly through non-profit methods so that the costs are lower, why should I be against this? Appeal to/ against an ideological buzzword doesn't count, either.

"SYSTEM" is part of the equation, not cherrypicking "insurers". It's all part of the same system.

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QUOTE (kapkomet @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 12:34 PM)
"SYSTEM" is part of the equation, not cherrypicking "insurers". It's all part of the same system.

 

I'm all for shifting the profits currently directed at insurers (because I see no innovation incentives there) to doctors and researchers.

 

Why should the insurance (not provider, care, hospital, research, etc) industry be for-profit?

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QUOTE (kapkomet @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 01:27 PM)
Taking over my health care is a moral question. If you want to deal with morality, then deal with all of it, and quit cherry picking what liberty you want to take away from me. I'm sick and damn tired of the government telling me what lightbulbs I have to use, how much water is in my toilet, who my doctor will be, etc. etc. etc. Where does it stop? It's ok, though, government is the only answer to evil profit making. Resdistribute wealth... We have RIGHTS TO HAPPINESS now - we all must be "more equal". Or something. It's all tied together - the government wants more and more power, and we just gladly hand it over. It becomes a moral question because there's that right to choose for women, yet, we can't choose our own f***ing health care. Right. Now I'll get "straw man". Uh huh. Everything's a straw man.

This is a hysterical stream-of-consciousness rant.

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QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 12:36 PM)
I'm all for shifting the profits currently directed at insurers (because I see no innovation incentives there) to doctors and researchers.

 

Why should the insurance (not provider, care, hospital, research, etc) industry be for-profit?

Why shouldn't it be? 8% profits (typically) - wow, it's bankrupting America. Just like the oil companies. Big bad corporations, they suck. Give to the little guys, er I mean unions.

 

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QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 01:10 PM)
kap has gone bye-bye.

 

Why, because he has strong feelings against big government? Or because you (and a lot) of people here disagree with him?

 

I'm happy he joined this conversation, I was feeling alone. :P

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QUOTE (kapkomet @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 01:12 PM)
Yep. I just bend over and take everything government and shove it right up my ass and smile! Because, they are the only ones that can take care of us.

 

You are a voice of reason. :notworthy

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QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 01:12 PM)
Why, because he has strong feelings against big government? Or because you (and a lot) of people here disagree with him?

 

I'm happy he joined this conversation, I was feeling alone. :P

 

No. In fact, if you look carefully at this thread, you won't see me disagreeing with kap at all. I've suggested a few alternatives, but I don't agree with either party's stance right now, which I think I've made clear.

 

I say that because...

 

QUOTE (kapkomet @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 01:12 PM)
Yep. I just bend over and take everything government and shove it right up my ass and smile! Because, they are the only ones that can take care of us.

 

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QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 02:13 PM)
No. In fact, if you look carefully at this thread, you won't see me disagreeing with kap at all. I've suggested a few alternatives, but I don't agree with either party's stance right now, which I think I've made clear.

 

I say that because...

 

So he exaggerates and writes in stream of consciousness sometimes. So what? People disagree with him and choose to ignore what he means and just point to certain phrases he uses and claim he's "gone nuts" or the ever popular "straw man" responses.

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QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 01:13 PM)
No. In fact, if you look carefully at this thread, you won't see me disagreeing with kap at all. I've suggested a few alternatives, but I don't agree with either party's stance right now, which I think I've made clear.

 

I say that because...

:headbang

 

I'm just having fun. I'm bored. But I need to get my house cleaned up now before the government comes over to check my toilets are calibrated properly. :D

 

However, I certainly believe that the government needs to get the hell out of my life, Kaperbole ™ aside.

 

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QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 01:13 PM)
No. In fact, if you look carefully at this thread, you won't see me disagreeing with kap at all. I've suggested a few alternatives, but I don't agree with either party's stance right now, which I think I've made clear.

 

I say that because...

 

I think Kap, and myself to some degree, are going to extremes to make a point. People are taking these extremes in a very literal sense, which is their right, but the point is that neither of us (from what I gather here) trust the government to run health care any differently than it runs everything else -- right into deficit and right into the ground.

 

Healthcare is the cookie jar the government has never been able to get near -- every time they've tried to reach in for some, the bad ass cookies inside beat it down with a rusty aluminum bat...but they smell blood in the water now. Why now? Because, the people have turned on healthcare unlike ever before...so strike while the irons hot. They realize the cookies overflowing in that jar are made of money...and they want it. All of it. Regardless of what happens after they get it.

 

Of course, they're doing it all in the name of good.

 

They're doing it to SAVE the people.

 

To SAVE the children.

Edited by Y2HH
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QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 02:16 PM)
So he exaggerates and writes in stream of consciousness sometimes. So what? People disagree with him and choose to ignore what he means and just point to certain phrases he uses and claim he's "gone nuts" or the ever popular "straw man" responses.

No... you fail. See below

 

QUOTE (kapkomet @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 02:16 PM)
:headbang

 

I'm just having fun. I'm bored. But I need to get my house cleaned up now before the government comes over to check my toilets are calibrated properly. :D

 

However, I certainly believe that the government needs to get the hell out of my life, Kaperbole ™ aside.

 

NSS and me don't actually disagree with kap's actual solutions, but pointing out where he goes off the deep end is something like a sport.

 

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QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 02:17 PM)
I think Kap, and myself to some degree, are going to extremes to make a point. People are taking these extremes in a very literal sense, which is their right, but the point is that neither of us (from what I gather here) trust the government to run health care any differently than it runs everything else -- right into deficit and right into the ground.

 

Healthcare is the cookie jar the government has never been able to get near -- every time the badass cookies inside beat it down when it tried...and they smell blood in the water now. The people have turned on healthcare...so strike while the irons hot. Why? Because they realize the cookies overflowing in that jar are made of money...and they want it. All of it. Regardless of what happens after they get it.

 

:huh:

 

I get what you're trying to say but that's quite the analogy there.

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QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 02:18 PM)
No... you fail. See below

 

 

 

NSS and me don't actually disagree with kap's actual solutions, but pointing out where he goes off the deep end is something like a sport.

 

Maybe for you two.

 

That can not be said universally, however.

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