Healthcare reform

[Texsox]

That's pretty good list. I salute you.

 

 

 

but this should be US citizens only. people here on visas need to be covered by their employer.

 

There are no group policies under this plan. What is the difference if the green card or Visa person takes their salary and pays their premium, or the company pays it direct?

[mr_genius]

There are no group policies under this plan. What is the difference if the green card or Visa person takes their salary and pays their premium, or the company pays it direct?

 

if they set up a program that tracks all visa and green card holders insurance status to make sure they purchase coverage, it's going to cost more money. if a company wants to bring in outside labor the tax payers should not be subsidizing it. Or have a larger visa fee to increase monitoring of the visa programs. Doesn't matter to me.

Edited September 1, 2009 by mr_genius

[jasonxctf]

That's pretty good list. I salute you.

 

 

 

but this should be US citizens only. people here on visas need to be covered by their employer.

 

a quick question and maybe this is a falacy (spl?) of the marketplace.

 

doesnt company sponsored group insurance (say at Motorola) help cut down on the individual cost of insurance due to the laws of averages?

 

Wouldn't eliminating group insurance, and thus flooding the market with 300 million people looking for 1 policy at a time, increase costs to everyone?

[Rex Kickass]

Because they are not US citizens, their employer needs to cover them. Way too much room for abuse otherwise. They should be getting market pay rates anyways, so them being in the program would be visa fraud as they wouldn't meet a hardship requirement if actually paid market rates. We already have over 20% fraud rates in the visa programs, no need to encourage even more.

 

But they pay the same taxes as citizens.

[kapkomet]

But they pay the same taxes as citizens.

Riiiiiiiiiight. Remember, we're talking ILLEGAL immy-gants.

[mr_genius]

But they pay the same taxes as citizens.

 

So? If insurance is mandated their employer needs to either pay an extra fee to enable the government to monitor the guest workers' health care coverage or the employer pays for the coverage. A lot of visa workers (such as those on L1 visas) are in and out of the country for months at a time and it would be costly for the government to set up new systems to make sure that when they are here they have health insurance. Otherwise we are back to paying for uninsured emergency room visits. Back to square one with them.

 

Now, if you are advocating visa workers should qualify for 'extreme economic hardship free health care', that makes no sense. If they are making that little their employer is violating visa laws.

Edited September 1, 2009 by mr_genius

[StrangeSox]

Riiiiiiiiiight. Remember, we're talking ILLEGAL immy-gants.

no, I asked genius about people with visas and greencards.

[kapkomet]

no, I asked genius about people with visas and greencards.

Different agreements with different issues.

[StrangeSox]

Different agreements with different issues.

 

the post your responded to was in response to genius, who was responding to my question about visas/ greencards

[kapkomet]

the post your responded to was in response to genius, who was responding to my question about visas/ greencards

I thought I was talking to Rex. I'm SOOO confused.

 

Visa issues are pretty complex, and working for an int'l pharma company, they come in all shapes and sizes, to be sure. The agreements are all over the place on those regarding all benefits.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

By being Federally liscensed can they now compete across state lines and have those restrictions removed? What about tort reform? Your basic structure looks interesting, I'll give you that. You would also need to create some sort of standard for the electronic files, otherwise you will have systems that can't talk with each other, as we have now.

When I said nationally licensed, yes, I meant they could compete across state lines. And yes, standardized file system or at least message protocols and file layouts, that sort of thing.

 

And you are right, I forgot about tort reform. Add to the list that we need to look at ways to minimize, but I am not yet convinced of the best method. I leave that up for debate, but simply say that something done to filter out more legal B.S. is good, and minimizing levels of damages outside of the recouping of actual financial losses is appropriate.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

So? If insurance is mandated their employer needs to either pay an extra fee to enable the government to monitor the guest workers' health care coverage or the employer pays for the coverage. A lot of visa workers (such as those on L1 visas) are in and out of the country for months at a time and it would be costly for the government to set up new systems to make sure that when they are here they have health insurance. Otherwise we are back to paying for uninsured emergency room visits. Back to square one with them.

 

Now, if you are advocating visa workers should qualify for 'extreme economic hardship free health care', that makes no sense. If they are making that little their employer is violating visa laws.

I think this should depend on the visa.

 

Someone here on vacation, aka a tourist visa, probably should not be required to get insurance, as its just not practical. You at least need to provide emergency medical care to them. BUT, they COULD buy travel insurance. Sort of a grey area.

 

As for work visas that are beyond the short one-month types, you should probably require the sponsoring employer to state a guarantee that the person on visa has some sort of health insurance meeting basic standards. You can leave it up to the employer as to how they make it happen.

 

[mr_genius]

I think this should depend on the visa.

 

Someone here on vacation, aka a tourist visa, probably should not be required to get insurance, as its just not practical. You at least need to provide emergency medical care to them. BUT, they COULD buy travel insurance. Sort of a grey area.

 

I was talking about work visas

[Rex Kickass]

I thought I was talking to Rex. I'm SOOO confused.

 

Visa issues are pretty complex, and working for an int'l pharma company, they come in all shapes and sizes, to be sure. The agreements are all over the place on those regarding all benefits.

 

I don't think illegal residents should qualify for federal subsidies for these plans.

[kapkomet]

I don't think illegal residents should qualify for federal subsidies for these plans.

What the hell are you arguing about? PFffffffffffffffft.

 

 

[Rex Kickass]

What the hell are you arguing about? PFffffffffffffffft.

 

At some point, someone said illegal residents shouldn't be allowed to pay into these plans. Which I frankly disagree with. Paying into the pool strengthens the pool. It doesn't mean they should get a handout to get into the pool.

 

That even got to legal non-citizen residents here on visas and greencards. They'll still use the health care system when they get sick, I have no problem with them paying into the pool.

[Texsox]

Riiiiiiiiiight. Remember, we're talking ILLEGAL immy-gants.

 

No, catch up. NSS plan calls for car insurance style, Mr said no to Visa and green card holders buying direct, he wants the companies to pay for the policies instead of the folks here *legally* with Visas, H1B, green cards, etc.,

 

So in genious' modification of NSS plan

Citizens buy individually from companies and pay for it themselves

Legal non-citizens have it purchased for them by the companies that sponsor them.

[EvilMonkey]

No, catch up. NSS plan calls for car insurance style, Mr said no to Visa and green card holders buying direct, he wants the companies to pay for the policies instead of the folks here *legally* with Visas, H1B, green cards, etc.,

 

So in genious' modification of NSS plan

Citizens buy individually from companies and pay for it themselves

Legal non-citizens have it purchased for them by the companies that sponsor them.

And if we know just where the 'non-legal' people are, at least of the 'illegal' variety, can't we then go and arrest and deport them? If they are allowed into the plan at all, we shold know who they are and where they are at and then be able to return them back across the border.

[kapkomet]

And if we know just where the 'non-legal' people are, at least of the 'illegal' variety, can't we then go and arrest and deport them? If they are allowed into the plan at all, we shold know who they are and where they are at and then be able to return them back across the border.

Now why would we do that when the government intends to legalize them all so they are all a big voting block for the Democrats? Come on now. If they're in the plan, all the more reason to stay until they're citizens in one fell swoop of the quill of Barackus the Great.

 

 

[Texsox]

Or we could spend a few hundred billion dollars in rounding them up and destroy our agriculture industry.

 

Until I see a whole lot of unemployed Americans rushing to pick crops in Idaho for four weeks, or work at a processing plant, I'll support a guest worker program that gives them only limited benefits. Using the same system to bring in a $100,000 programmer or accountant, as you would to bring in a $14,000 temporary farm labor, is kind of silly.

[BigSqwert]

Or we could spend a few hundred billion dollars in rounding them up and destroy our agriculture industry.

 

Until I see a whole lot of unemployed Americans rushing to pick crops in Idaho for four weeks, or work at a processing plant, I'll support a guest worker program that gives them only limited benefits. Using the same system to bring in a $100,000 programmer or accountant, as you would to bring in a $14,000 temporary farm labor, is kind of silly.

 

The old man still has some wisdom.

[EvilMonkey]

Or we could spend a few hundred billion dollars in rounding them up and destroy our agriculture industry.

 

Until I see a whole lot of unemployed Americans rushing to pick crops in Idaho for four weeks, or work at a processing plant, I'll support a guest worker program that gives them only limited benefits. Using the same system to bring in a $100,000 programmer or accountant, as you would to bring in a $14,000 temporary farm labor, is kind of silly.

Tex, not every illegal immigrant in this country picks crops or busses tables. How many meat packing pants have been raided lately? Those are good paying jobs that people lined for inthe hundreds when they were available. We talked about all this in other threads, I have no problems with a viable guest worker program, but then they wouldn't be here ILLEGALLY then, would they. Anyone not here on a guest worker program should be promptly shown the way out of the country.

[Rex Kickass]

Tex, not every illegal immigrant in this country picks crops or busses tables. How many meat packing pants have been raided lately? Those are good paying jobs that people lined for inthe hundreds when they were available. We talked about all this in other threads, I have no problems with a viable guest worker program, but then they wouldn't be here ILLEGALLY then, would they. Anyone not here on a guest worker program should be promptly shown the way out of the country.

 

If we went after the corporations who, time and again, violate the law by providing the employment supply that fuels undocumented immigration - we would go a longer way to solving that problem and the "illegals getting healthcare" problem than any healthcare reform bill could do.

 

But the truth is, generally when it comes to enforcement of the law - government is too often in the service of protecting money over the law.

[EvilMonkey]

If we went after the corporations who, time and again, violate the law by providing the employment supply that fuels undocumented immigration - we would go a longer way to solving that problem and the "illegals getting healthcare" problem than any healthcare reform bill could do.

 

But the truth is, generally when it comes to enforcement of the law - government is too often in the service of protecting money over the law.

and if you go back and look at all the various immigration threads we have had, I was all for busting corporations that knowingly hired illegals.

[kapkomet]

Or we could spend a few hundred billion dollars in rounding them up and destroy our agriculture industry.

 

Until I see a whole lot of unemployed Americans rushing to pick crops in Idaho for four weeks, or work at a processing plant, I'll support a guest worker program that gives them only limited benefits. Using the same system to bring in a $100,000 programmer or accountant, as you would to bring in a $14,000 temporary farm labor, is kind of silly.

You bring this up every damn time. And it's now a fallacy - Americans WILL do it. f***, I might have to pretty soon, and I'm not joking. There's no other jobs.

 

Second, as Alpha commented, and I have repeatedly and repeatedly, guest worker programs are fine. But then they will not be subject to health care availability, nor should they be.