Healthcare reform

[kapkomet]

But...that takes time and money.

And I can tell you from personal experience, the biggest issue we EVER had was medicare/medicaid. Medicaid is a nightmare. Gee, government run programs.

 

I can also tell you that medicare right now is the worst DSO of most doctors. They simply are not paying right now. That's now, let alone when this thing starts up.

 

I also find it interesting that the "plan" doesn't start until 2013 but the tax collections will start effective immediately. Now why is that? Because it's after the election of 2012, and people will not realize what they are going to get hit upside the head with until after that election. Absolutely shameful.

 

[Balta1701]

That, and because it's fiscally conservative to impose arbitrary cost limits on bills these days regardless of what exactly they do.

[kapkomet]

That, and because it's fiscally conservative to impose arbitrary cost limits on bills these days regardless of what exactly they do.

Sure - all this does is push out the cost structure into the future. When it starts, it will either destroy the next president because the debt is dramatically higher then forecasted (that is to say, expenses of this are being underestimated) or Obama (God forbid) will have his second term, and he won't give a s***.

 

[Balta1701]

Sure - all this does is push out the cost structure into the future. When it starts, it will either destroy the next president because the debt is dramatically higher then forecasted (that is to say, expenses of this are being underestimated) or Obama (God forbid) will have his second term, and he won't give a s***.

On the other hand, if we do nothing, or attempt any of the "Fixes" you've proposed (aka doing nothing), the fact that health care costs are rising so much faster than inflation will do the exact same thing in 10 years anyway.

[kapkomet]

On the other hand, if we do nothing, or attempt any of the "Fixes" you've proposed (aka doing nothing), the fact that health care costs are rising so much faster than inflation will do the exact same thing in 10 years anyway.

Oh so what I proposed is "aka doing nothing"? Right. See, there's our problem, right there. You propose government or we aren't fixing it, and that's just absolute nonsense. Period. There's no point of anyone ever saying another word to you because you are so fixated on one solution - government fixes your life. Just hand your life over to the state. You might as well.

[Balta1701]

Oh so what I proposed is "aka doing nothing"? Right. See, there's our problem, right there. You propose government or we aren't fixing it, and that's just absolute nonsense. Period. There's no point of anyone ever saying another word to you because you are so fixated on one solution - government fixes your life. Just hand your life over to the state. You might as well.

Basically what I'm arguing is that the stuff you've proposed does essentially nothing to fix the problem of costs growing towards infinity.

[kapkomet]

Basically what I'm arguing is that the stuff you've proposed does essentially nothing to fix the problem of costs growing towards infinity.

Sure it does. It finally puts some relief into the system to where costs aren't so high. But I guess if the government can't cut costs (LMAO - they have SUCH a good record on that) no one can.

[Balta1701]

Sure it does. It finally puts some relief into the system to where costs aren't so high. But I guess if the government can't cut costs (LMAO - they have SUCH a good record on that) no one can.

If the private sector and the current insurance market is so good at cutting costs then why are its costs growing so much faster than those of either Medicare or of the rest of the worlds?

[StrangeSox]

Because Medicare under-pays, forcing doctors and hospitals to charge private insurance more. At least that's the idea.

[Balta1701]

Because Medicare under-pays, forcing doctors and hospitals to charge private insurance more. At least that's the idea.

I don't buy that, but let's hypothetically say for a second that it is correct as an explanation for that behavior. That is just a shifting of a cost from one group to another group, unless you can successfully argue that the existence of Medicare is not only driving up the costs for the private sector (it's not), but that it is also driving the enormous rate of cost increases for the private sector. The 10% increase in costs per year (give or take) overall is a different issue.

[kapkomet]

First of all, we SHOULD have the highest health care costs in the world. That's because we have the best equipment, r&d, and doctors (for the most part) in the world. I don't, and many other people don't, mind paying a premium.

 

With that said, SS's answer is part of the issue. The other part is that they don't have control over a lot of the other factors... regulations prevent state lines from being crossed. There are mandates of coverage over stupid things. (I bet you want your breast implants, right Balta?). ( - just using that as an example).

 

There's an immeasureable cost on tort law, forget the malpractice insurance costs. You simply cannot say 2% - that's it, proven, done with conversation. There's too many other factors.

 

Medicare and medicaid are so wasteful it's not even funny - especially after seeing some of the things I saw when going through medical billing. Furthermore, the system has no incentive to improve once the government takes it. And they will - language is key - "if you like your insurance you can keep it". Sure, that's true. Today. But even the skeptical ones know that it is the end of the private sector. Except Obama... where in fairy tale land you will have insurance - no matter what - while cutting (RATIONING) costs. You cannot have both, and that is what people know. That's why they can't get traction on this.

[StrangeSox]

If Medicare pays a flat rate of $x for a procedure but the cost of that procedure costs $z (more than what Medicare pays), private insurance is paying $z for their procedures, $(z-x) to cover Medicare. Now, if it goes up $y, p.i. will have to cover their $y and medicare's $y.

 

This hypothetical may or may not match reality.

[Balta1701]

If Medicare pays a flat rate of $x for a procedure but the cost of that procedure costs $z (more than what Medicare pays), private insurance is paying $z for their procedures, $(z-x) to cover Medicare. Now, if it goes up $y, p.i. will have to cover their $y and medicare's $y.

 

This hypothetical may or may not match reality.

In that case though, Medicare's costs should be totally under control. They're not.

[Balta1701]

But even the skeptical ones know that it is the end of the private sector. Except Obama... where in fairy tale land you will have insurance - no matter what - while cutting (RATIONING) costs. You cannot have both, and that is what people know. That's why they can't get traction on this.

We ration.

 

Let me say that again.

 

We ration.

 

We already ration. We just ration by your income level.

 

We ration.

 

You can't scare people by screaming rationing when those same people have been rationed out for years.

[vandy125]

Here is a pretty cool link that I ran into that shows all of the current Health Care Reform proposals that are out there. There are 12 of them out there right now, and this site allows you to compare them side by side on 17 different topics.

 

Health Reform Proposal Link

[Rex Kickass]

Medicare and medicaid are so wasteful it's not even funny - especially after seeing some of the things I saw when going through medical billing. Furthermore, the system has no incentive to improve once the government takes it. And they will - language is key - "if you like your insurance you can keep it". Sure, that's true. Today. But even the skeptical ones know that it is the end of the private sector. Except Obama... where in fairy tale land you will have insurance - no matter what - while cutting (RATIONING) costs. You cannot have both, and that is what people know. That's why they can't get traction on this.

 

If that is the case, please explain why private health insurance exists and thrives in Canada, the UK, France and Germany.

[StrangeSox]

Don't forget Italy.

[southsider2k5]

Because Medicare under-pays, forcing doctors and hospitals to charge private insurance more. At least that's the idea.

 

It also means a significant amount of doctors refuse to take on medicare/cade patients because of that, and dealing with the federal government.

[EvilJester99]

Someone clarify something for me with this health coverage they are talking about. Now its strictly optional and not being forced on us right? Then how is it this is being considered communist or even Nazi like by some people? If it were wouldn't it be more like we are taking away all other choice and this is all you get? Thanks for any useful input.

[StrangeSox]

we need a can of worms smiley.

[BigSqwert]

*grabs some popcorn and awaits Kap's rationalization of the nazi and communist comparisons*

[Rex Kickass]

Oh hey, that guy that got his finger bitten off in that fight outside a townhall the other day? Admitted on Fox News he threw the first punch after the biter called him an "idiot."

 

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/cspanj...inger-bitten-to

[Balta1701]

*grabs some popcorn and awaits Kap's rationalization of the nazi and communist comparisons*

1. The Nazis installed government run health care in the late 1930's. Everything the Nazis did was evil, therefore government run health care is clearly a Nazi policy.

2. You're taking away the rights of people to choose to be uninsured, which admittedly does happen, although not nearly as often as some would like us to believe.

3. The whole Killing the infirm thing.

[kapkomet]

If that is the case, please explain why private health insurance exists and thrives in Canada, the UK, France and Germany.

Really? It THRIVES? Wow.

[Balta1701]

Really? It THRIVES? Wow.

They get care that is at worst equivalent in quality to ours and at best significantly better than ours and they save $3000 or $4000 a year per person while covering everyone. The Republicans would have the largest orgasm in history if you attempted to cut taxes by that amount.