Healthcare reform

[NorthSideSox72]

That's my point. Now, whether this was meant to be very sarcastic or not...I don't run around searching for polls.

 

But, are you actually trying to say that the majority of Americans are NOT happy with their healthcare?

 

I'm not going to bother proving you right or wrong. You can do that for yourself.

That wasn't my point, however, yes, I'd say that's a true statement. Every poll I have seen says this, in one slightly different way or another. "Happy" is of course a subjective terms. But I have seen polls over and over again showing the majority of Americans favor some sort of major health care reform. Those polls come from all over the place. If it wasn't true, someone would have at least come out with a poll using strong methodology to show that - and yet, they haven't. What does that tell you?

 

Really though, my point was the same as its been when discussing this with you. Your method of reasoning on polls is such that you have decided to bury your head in the sand, so that you can believe whatever you want, because you don't have to be bothered with actual data that may show your beliefs to be inaccurate.

 

[Y2HH]

Since you asked...

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/122663/Private-...aspx?CSTS=alert

 

oh...and...

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/102934/majority...healthcare.aspx

 

Oh, and IMO, these polls are crap, too. I hate polls whether they agree with me or not. Please don't miss this.

Edited November 2, 2009 by Y2HH

[Y2HH]

That wasn't my point, however, yes, I'd say that's a true statement. Every poll I have seen says this, in one slightly different way or another. "Happy" is of course a subjective terms. But I have seen polls over and over again showing the majority of Americans favor some sort of major health care reform. Those polls come from all over the place. If it wasn't true, someone would have at least come out with a poll using strong methodology to show that - and yet, they haven't. What does that tell you?

 

Really though, my point was the same as its been when discussing this with you. Your method of reasoning on polls is such that you have decided to bury your head in the sand, so that you can believe whatever you want, because you don't have to be bothered with actual data that may show your beliefs to be inaccurate.

 

Americans want a lot of things, because newer always = better. I favor some sort of reform, too...just not this overhaul which takes a working system and completely breaks it, building an entire new system with new problems.

 

The reform I'd support is fixing what is broken, not throwing the entire engine out because a few components aren't working as intended.

 

I'm afraid to ask for reforms, because I don't know what that entails. Especially when they toss the word comprehensive onto it...which as become more of a political buzz word than anything meaningful.

[NorthSideSox72]

Since you asked...

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/122663/Private-...aspx?CSTS=alert

 

oh...and...

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/102934/majority...healthcare.aspx

 

Don't tell me...Gallup lies because they showed what you asked to be showed.

 

Oh, and IMO, these polls are crap, too.

 

Did you read what these polls are? They are asking about two very specific things - quality of care (public versus private), and cost of healthcare. They aren't asking if they want changes, or if they are happy with the system, or if they want reform, or if they are happy with their current health care situation. The polls actually look pretty solid to me, and Gallup is fairly reliable - so I believe they are probably accurate. You just need to understand what they are accurately telling you. Neither of them are telling you that Americans are happy with the health care system as-is. They are telling you that:

 

1. Apparently, quality of care among Medicare insured is similar to that received by privately insured

 

2. A slim majority of people are satisfied with their cost structure for health care

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Americans want a lot of things, because newer always = better. I favor some sort of reform, too...just not this overhaul which takes a working system and completely breaks it, building an entire new system with new problems.

 

The reform I'd support is fixing what is broken, not throwing the entire engine out because a few components aren't working as intended.

 

I'm afraid to ask for reforms, because I don't know what that entails. Especially when they toss the word comprehensive onto it...which as become more of a political buzz word than anything meaningful.

Now this is a cohesive set of points here that I agree with. When you aren't abjectly dismissing all data because any data can be biased, you make some very good points.

 

[Y2HH]

Did you read what these polls are? They are asking about two very specific things - quality of care (public versus private), and cost of healthcare. They aren't asking if they want changes, or if they are happy with the system, or if they want reform, or if they are happy with their current health care situation. The polls actually look pretty solid to me, and Gallup is fairly reliable - so I believe they are probably accurate. You just need to understand what they are accurately telling you. Neither of them are telling you that Americans are happy with the health care system as-is. They are telling you that:

 

1. Apparently, quality of care among Medicare insured is similar to that received by privately insured

 

2. A slim majority of people are satisfied with their cost structure for health care

 

I know what the polls were about.

 

But if the majority are happy with things as is, however slim that majority may be, HOW are polls also showing a majority wanting to reform a system that they're happy with?

 

It doesn't add up.

Edited November 2, 2009 by Y2HH

[Y2HH]

I mean, thats like...

 

"Are you happy with your healthcare?!"

 

Slim Majority : YES

 

"Do you want to reform the heathcare system?!"

 

Same Slim Majority : YES

 

WTF?!

[NorthSideSox72]

I know what the polls were about.

 

But if the majority are happy with things as is, however slim that majority may be, HOW are polls also showing a majority wanting to reform a system that they're happy with?

 

It doesn't add up.

They aren't. Again, that is not what these polls asked. Read the questions they asked. These polls are about specific, granular pieces of the puzzle. You are extrapolating that to something at a much higher level. This is like polling people to see if they like Paul Konerko at first, and if they say yes, assuming they are happy with the Sox roster as-is. The poll may be accurate about Paulie, but its about PAULIE.

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

I mean, thats like...

 

"Are you happy with your healthcare?!"

 

Slim Majority : YES

 

"Do you want to reform the heathcare system?!"

 

Same Slim Majority : YES

 

WTF?!

No, its not. That is not at all what they are asking. Read the polls that you linked, read the questions that were asked.

 

[Y2HH]

No, its not. That is not at all what they are asking. Read the polls that you linked, read the questions that were asked.

 

Don't care enough about polls to do so, to be honest. You know how I feel about them.

 

I don't think people know what they want when it comes to Healthcare, and no poll will show that.

[NorthSideSox72]

Don't care enough about polls to do so, to be honest. You know how I feel about them.

 

I don't think people know what they want when it comes to Healthcare, and no poll will show that.

You care enough about them to use them as a support for your argument (even if the support is unrelated and unfounded), but you don't care enough about them to see what questions were asked?

 

I give. This is pointless.

 

[Y2HH]

You care enough about them to use them as a support for your argument (even if the support is unrelated and unfounded), but you don't care enough about them to see what questions were asked?

 

I give. This is pointless.

 

I only posted them as examples of polls such as what you requested existing. No other reason. They may not be the exact questions you were looking for, but they show that polls such as people being happy with their care DO EXIST.

 

Yes, you give. Stick your head in the sand now because I don't agree with you on polls.

 

See, it's easy to do that to someone that disagrees with you...I can do it, too.

Edited November 2, 2009 by Y2HH

[lostfan]

Yes, you give. Stick your head in the sand now because I don't agree with you on polls.

 

See, it's easy to do that to someone that disagrees with you...I can do it, too.

Good f***ing lord dude, this is what he's been trying to explain that you are doing for the past 2-3 days.

[lostfan]

There was nothing to miss other than the typical, let's take snippits of someones entire post, therefore breaking its context completely, and make a really bad Soxtalkism strawman point about it.

 

To be perfectly clear, since it appears you have to be around here lest someone will take snippits of a whole to make a really stupid point, you can easily get a poll showing whatever outcome you're looking for when it comes to the subject of health care and people wanting a government run public option. Again, it comes down to the whens, the wheres and the hows...and it's my belief that in order for them to show that a "majority of Americans" want such an option, they HAD to ask a certain subsection of "America" while ignoring everyone else.

 

I'm sure they didn't poll any Blue Cross employees.

 

Or young healthy adults who are covered by any number of plans.

 

Or my parents, who in their 60's but have insurance.

 

Are those people not Americans?

 

Oh, wait, that's right...they may be Americans, but for this poll...they aren't necessary, because that would...well, mess up the intended outcome.

 

I think my point was made pretty clearly.

 

Again, to reiterate, since it seems you have to do that around here...I've stated my case as to WHY *I* do not like polls. I am not, in any way, saying you can't believe in them, trust them or take them at their word. That is your choice. That is your decision, something I'm not making for you.

 

It'd be nice if you let me state my opinion on the matter, even if you disagree with it without saying I'm sticking my head in the sand, or as I'm sure you are actually wanting to say but don't want to get banned, a total f***ing moron.

Jesus Christ, what are you talking about? Where do you get these conclusions on what I think about the subject or about you from?

 

What I've been trying to say, and so have NSS and StrangeSox, is that you are effectively saying all polls are bulls*** which makes it impossible to gauge anything, ever, and when you give the reason, it boils down to "there is a possibility they can say something that challenges what I believe" even though you're not actually saying that. Then you confirm this whenever you praise a poll that says something you DO like (irregardless of what the questions actually are) but dismiss any other ones out of hand as unreliable. The hand-waving of data makes it impossible to argue anything. Which takes us back to about 6 months ago when we were all in here doing the same thing.

[Y2HH]

Good f***ing lord dude, this is what he's been trying to explain that you are doing for the past 2-3 days.

 

But he's wrong.

 

The only thing I'm doing is disagreeing with a majority of people on this website about polls. That's all I'm doing.

 

Just because I disagree with you people, doesn't mean I'm wrong, it doesn't mean I'm sticking my head in the sand, and it doesn't mean I'm an idiot.

 

The reverse is true, too.

 

Soxtalk has a problem, a big problem, with people having differing opinions on things...it's ok that people see things differently, no matter how irrational it seems to you or what you believe in...it's ok.

 

I'm not asking permission to see things how I see them. This is how I see things, whether you like it or not.

 

It's not sticking my head in the sand, it's not being ignorant.

 

It's simply being different.

 

Accept that.

[Y2HH]

Jesus Christ, what are you talking about? Where do you get these conclusions on what I think about the subject or about you from?

 

What I've been trying to say, and so have NSS and StrangeSox, is that you are effectively saying all polls are bulls*** which makes it impossible to gauge anything, ever, and when you give the reason, it boils down to "there is a possibility they can say something that challenges what I believe" even though you're not actually saying that. Then you confirm this whenever you praise a poll that says something you DO like (irregardless of what the questions actually are) but dismiss any other ones out of hand as unreliable. The hand-waving of data makes it impossible to argue anything. Which takes us back to about 6 months ago when we were all in here doing the same thing.

 

I never praise polls I do like.

 

They're crap, regardless of whos side they agree with. I've stated that many times.

 

Now I've stated it again, you will ignore it again, but that's ok...that's what the network does on Soxtalk.

Edited November 2, 2009 by Y2HH

[lostfan]

You said "these polls are crap" but you are still trying to say they say something they don't. Ok so "praise" was the wrong word.

[lostfan]

But he's wrong.

 

The only thing I'm doing is disagreeing with a majority of people on this website about polls. That's all I'm doing.

 

Just because I disagree with you people, doesn't mean I'm wrong, it doesn't mean I'm sticking my head in the sand, and it doesn't mean I'm an idiot.

 

The reverse is true, too.

 

Soxtalk has a problem, a big problem, with people having differing opinions on things...it's ok that people see things differently, no matter how irrational it seems to you or what you believe in...it's ok.

 

I'm not asking permission to see things how I see them. This is how I see things, whether you like it or not.

 

It's not sticking my head in the sand, it's not being ignorant.

 

It's simply being different.

 

Accept that.

Nobody is calling you an idiot but you do have a tendency to act like people are attacking you all the time. When you make a point and someone disagrees with it they're going to explain why you're wrong and say something back, that's what this subforum is here for. People aren't going to agree and that's why this thread is 100+ pages. Nobody in here has a problem with anyone, except maybe one or two people who don't like one another. I go at it with 2K5 all the time in here and it might look like we're fighting, but ask him, we're cool. Same with Kap.

[Y2HH]

You said "these polls are crap" but you are still trying to say they say something they don't. Ok so "praise" was the wrong word.

 

I simply do not like polls. I don't think they're an accurate representation of a whole no matter which side they agree with.

 

Let's move past that and get the conversation of Healthcare reform back on track.

 

My eyes are open, and I can see the things around me, and I don't need a poll to show me that there are facets of Healthcare that need reform.

 

The discussion was meant to be about Healthcare, something closer to me than most, since I work in the industry and have an insiders perspective none of you have.

[Y2HH]

Nobody is calling you an idiot but you do have a tendency to act like people are attacking you all the time. When you make a point and someone disagrees with it they're going to explain why you're wrong and say something back, that's what this subforum is here for. People aren't going to agree and that's why this thread is 100+ pages. Nobody in here has a problem with anyone, except maybe one or two people who don't like one another. I go at it with 2K5 all the time in here and it might look like we're fighting, but ask him, we're cool. Same with Kap.

 

I don't "hate" anyone on this site, as I don't even know anyone on this site. I wouldn't hate someone over a debate on politics, religion or healthcare, either. Takes a lot more than that to get me to dislike someone.

 

And no, I realize people here aren't attacking me in a personal way.

[NorthSideSox72]

I never praise polls I do like.

 

They're crap, regardless of whos side they agree with. I've stated that many times.

 

Now I've stated it again, you will ignore it again, but that's ok...that's what the network does on Soxtalk.

You don't disagree - you just outright dismiss any and all data, laying waste to the foundation for discussion. That is the problem.

 

And LOL at "the network" - not sure if you noticed, but people who post back here often disagree on a LOT of things. There is no SoxTalk Filibuster Mafia. Hell, even the mods and admins go at it in here pretty vehemently with each other at times.

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

I simply do not like polls. I don't think they're an accurate representation of a whole no matter which side they agree with.

 

Let's move past that and get the conversation of Healthcare reform back on track.

 

My eyes are open, and I can see the things around me, and I don't need a poll to show me that there are facets of Healthcare that need reform.

 

The discussion was meant to be about Healthcare, something closer to me than most, since I work in the industry and have an insiders perspective none of you have.

And that I'd love to hear more of.

 

[Y2HH]

You don't disagree - you just outright dismiss any and all data, laying waste to the foundation for discussion. That is the problem.

 

And LOL at "the network" - not sure if you noticed, but people who post back here often disagree on a LOT of things. There is no SoxTalk Filibuster Mafia. Hell, even the mods and admins go at it in here pretty vehemently with each other at times.

 

There is, and you are the leader.

 

Back to the discussion at hand...look, I don't need polls to discuss healthcare...I know what's what, I work in heathcare, as you know...specifically the insurance industry.

 

Do some things need to be fixed? Yes.

 

I don't need some poll to show me that, one way or the other.

 

Does the ENTIRE system need to be fixed? No, because the entire system isn't broken.

 

I'd prefer to discuss that, rather than polls.

[lostfan]

You don't disagree - you just outright dismiss any and all data, laying waste to the foundation for discussion. That is the problem.

 

And LOL at "the network" - not sure if you noticed, but people who post back here often disagree on a LOT of things. There is no SoxTalk Filibuster Mafia. Hell, even the mods and admins go at it in here pretty vehemently with each other at times.

If you count you and me as fence-sitters, the liberal-conservative ratio of Soxtalk staff who regularly post here is 50/50.

[lostfan]

There are some posters here, AHB and BigSqwert for example, who think we should have single-payer healthcare, but a radical overhaul by the government is not on the table.