black jack on white sox, beckham handling

[Cali]

Guys with swagger and attitude in the clubhouse who are in their first season with the White Sox....yeah ask Nick Swisher how that went...

[Chisoxfn]

Guys with swagger and attitude in the clubhouse who are in their first season with the White Sox....yeah ask Nick Swisher how that went...

I think the problem with Swisher was that it might have rubbed people the wrong way with how he handled his struggles as well as how he failed to listen to our coaches or make any adjustments with his swing. But you bring up a valid point, I'd even point even more so at a guy like Cabrera whose a smart baseball player that is well liked in most circles but rubbed some people the wrong way in Chicago.

[Cali]

And it would be even worse in Beckham's case, since KW is obviously not gonna trade him. So he'll just be in the clubhouse on the team everyday with Ozzie hating him the whole time.

[Chisoxfn]

And it would be even worse in Beckham's case, since KW is obviously not gonna trade him. So he'll just be in the clubhouse on the team everyday with Ozzie hating him the whole time.

If Ozzie treats Beckham poorly or mishandles him than I think you'll start to hear grumblings of a firing. Right now I think everything about Kenny and Ozzie disagreeing is being blown way out of proportion but that might change a month from now when significant changes are made and Danks and others are up and Poreda is in the rotation (probably in replacement of Count).

[Cali]

I love Ozzie and loved his hiring since day one, but I'm starting hop on the Fire Ozzie bandwagon with the way he's treated some players and handled some situations post 2005.....

[watchtower41]

If Ozzie's beating a kid down for being cocky, what happens in the kid's head when he makes a mistake? Suddenly he's looking over his shoulder wondering if he's going to be benched...he's not just trying to play the game and work over his mistakes, he's afraid to make them in the first place.

 

 

I had no idea it was in our manager's job description to babysit our prospects. Beckham can take his lumps, he is a mature guy. Why should we baby our players around? Should we treat him like Mark Prior and praise the ground he walks on? Shold we relase Fields immediately so we can allow Saint Gordon to snuggle up to his new position without any competition? That seemed to work out pretty well for Rex Grossman and his ego. There's nothing wrong for Ozzie to expect more out of rookies and youngsters. They are here for a reason, if they can't take the heat then have fun with the Knights.

[Disco72]

I still don't see a problem. Ozzie is playing Beckham nearly everyday, and his worst comments about Beckham are that he is cocky and the media/fans are annointing him as the next great ballplayer. Both are true statements. I frankly don't think its good for anyone to have the pressure of being "the next great thing." Also, other than the Anderson issue, I don't see any consistent bias against young positional players by Ozzie. Fields played alot, Getz plays when healthy, and TCQ and Alexei played a ton last year even when they weren't performing well (Alexei).

[ThunderBolt]

Ozzie is a control freak. He needs to be in charge on the field, in the clubhouse to the media. Anytime Ozzie feels threatened he leashes out whether this be at KW, O-Cab, Swisher, Javy, McCarthy, BA, Becakhm and now Poreda. In some cases this kind of reaction is warranted from Ozzie, he needs to exert control over his team, but when this exertion comes in the form of publicly dressing down his young talent, well, this is an issue that needs to be addressed in private.

[WCSox]

If Ozzie treats Beckham poorly or mishandles him than I think you'll start to hear grumblings of a firing. Right now I think everything about Kenny and Ozzie disagreeing is being blown way out of proportion but that might change a month from now when significant changes are made and Danks and others are up and Poreda is in the rotation (probably in replacement of Count).

 

There does seem to be a fundamental difference in Ozzie and Kenny's ideas of who should be on the 25-man roster. We got a hint of this with Anderson back in the summer of '06, but it seems to have become even more pronounced. It'll be interesting to see if they can work this out, or if Kenny will decide to replace him.

 

[Soxbadger]

I had no idea it was in our manager's job description to babysit our prospects. Beckham can take his lumps, he is a mature guy. Why should we baby our players around? Should we treat him like Mark Prior and praise the ground he walks on? Shold we relase Fields immediately so we can allow Saint Gordon to snuggle up to his new position without any competition? That seemed to work out pretty well for Rex Grossman and his ego. There's nothing wrong for Ozzie to expect more out of rookies and youngsters. They are here for a reason, if they can't take the heat then have fun with the Knights.

 

What are you talking about?

 

Ozzie's job is to GET THE MOST OUT OF HIS PLAYERS.

 

Why would he start attacking Beckham after 2 weeks of being in the majors? You are acting like Beckham is the one who made the call to be promoted to MLB.

 

The point is that Beckham for better or for worse is part of the FUTURE of the White Sox. If he does not get regular consistent AB's it is going to be very hard for him to develop properly. Which is why if the Sox decided to promote him from the minors to the majors, it is Ozzie's job to make sure that he develops properly. That means playing him even if he is struggling because right now Beckham should be worrying about developing and not producing.

 

This isnt about babying our players, Beckham has moved through the minors extremely fast, the exact opposite of babying. This is instead about putting our players in a POSITION TO SUCCEED as opposed to a POSITION TO FAIL.

 

Even the most optimistic Beckham fan couldnt imagine that he could be counted on to produce this year. All you could hope is that it helped him develop faster for the future.

 

Which is why Ozzie is being absurd, he should be protecting Beckham and tempering fans expectations. Would he rather that people booed Beckham and had unreasonable expectations for a rookie?

 

Ive never seen a manager complain about fans being to supportive.

 

Part of me thinks Ozzie doesnt like playing second fiddle to anyone.

[Lemon_44]

What are you talking about?

 

Ozzie's job is to GET THE MOST OUT OF HIS PLAYERS.

 

Why would he start attacking Beckham after 2 weeks of being in the majors? You are acting like Beckham is the one who made the call to be promoted to MLB.

 

other than some people's assumptions, where/when has Ozzie attacked Beckham? Calling him cocky is not attacking him.

[Steve9347]

The moral of the story is to boo Dewayne Wise.

[2OutRally]

other than some people's assumptions, where/when has Ozzie attacked Beckham? Calling him cocky is not attacking him.

 

Yeah, he specified it as "good cocky" or something like that. The quotes are a little out of context.

[watchtower41]

What are you talking about?

 

Part of me thinks Ozzie doesnt like playing second fiddle to anyone.

 

 

Part of me thinks you HATE our manager.

[Balta1701]

The moral of the story is to boo Dewayne Wise.

I'd bet you that the fact that one of Ozzie's guys is getting booed for sucking directly relates to why he made that statement about Beckham getting cheered.

[watchtower41]

I'd bet you that the fact that one of Ozzie's guys is getting booed for sucking directly relates to why he made that statement about Beckham getting cheered.

 

 

Yeah, I'm sure that's it.... you must all think Ozzie was born yesterday?

[Felix]

The moral of the story is to boo Dewayne Wise.

Done.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Felix

[Soxbadger]

'You guys [the media] do a pretty good PR department for Beckham,'' Guillen said. ''I've been in Chicago for 17 years, playing and coaching. Has anybody been 0-for-whatever he is, he hasn't got booed yet? He hit a ground ball to second base and got a standing ovation from the fans [the other day]. Somebody hit a ground ball right at him, and he got another standing ovation. Good job, guys. Keep it up. I hope he sells a lot of shirts, but I need production.''

 

How is that not an attack?

 

He is basically saying that Beckham isnt producing the way that he wants him to.

 

I hope he sells a lot of shirts, but I need production.

 

Thats a direct jab at Beckham's MLB production, which is something that no one should be worried about. Beckham should be working on getting better as a hitter, not worrying about his production at this moment.

 

Part of me thinks you HATE our manager.

 

I apologize in advance to Chisoxfn, but I never say anything personal or negative, but this time I have to.

 

What are you smoking and where can I get it?

 

I am probably one of the most positive posters in the history of this board. I have defended almost every single player, coach and person associated with the White Sox since I started posting on this board 7 years ago.

 

The only 3 negative comments Ive made about Ozzie are:

 

1) He has handled Thornton poorly this year.

 

2) He is not a great in game manager.

 

3) He is handling Beckham poorly.

 

But I guess that is Hate?

 

Ridiculous.

[dasox24]

What are you talking about?

 

Ozzie's job is to GET THE MOST OUT OF HIS PLAYERS.

 

Why would he start attacking Beckham after 2 weeks of being in the majors? You are acting like Beckham is the one who made the call to be promoted to MLB.

 

The point is that Beckham for better or for worse is part of the FUTURE of the White Sox. If he does not get regular consistent AB's it is going to be very hard for him to develop properly. Which is why if the Sox decided to promote him from the minors to the majors, it is Ozzie's job to make sure that he develops properly. That means playing him even if he is struggling because right now Beckham should be worrying about developing and not producing.

 

This isnt about babying our players, Beckham has moved through the minors extremely fast, the exact opposite of babying. This is instead about putting our players in a POSITION TO SUCCEED as opposed to a POSITION TO FAIL.

 

Even the most optimistic Beckham fan couldnt imagine that he could be counted on to produce this year. All you could hope is that it helped him develop faster for the future.

 

Which is why Ozzie is being absurd, he should be protecting Beckham and tempering fans expectations. Would he rather that people booed Beckham and had unreasonable expectations for a rookie?

 

Ive never seen a manager complain about fans being to supportive.

 

Part of me thinks Ozzie doesnt like playing second fiddle to anyone.

Fantastic post. I think your last sentence is really very true. I've always been a huge fan of Ozzie and have defended him over the last few years for the dumb things he has said (even with his Mariotti is a "f**" thing - i always thought that was blown out of proportion). And after the World Series year, I especially felt like I'd never want another manager on this team except for Ozzie (as long as Ozzie still wanted to do the job). Unfortunately, in the last few weeks or so, I've begun to feel that if Ozzie doesn't make a few personal changes to the way he handles young players (particularly highly touted ones), Kenny may need to consider finding a new manager. We're about to start a youth movement, whether he likes it or not, and if he can't change, then we don't need his negative bulls*** around or else nobody is going to play well.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think Ozzie can change. I think he'd rather get fired than change how he does things, which makes me feel it could be a realistic possibility of seeing him go in the next year or two.

 

Also, some might say that "so and so" is a mental midget if he can't handle what Ozzie is saying, but I say that's bull. Even the cockiest/most confident of players won't play well if their manager is constantly saying things to downplay/criticize them. That's a bad way of managing, but even worse that he does this stuff in public so that millions of people can read about it. Keep it in the clubhouse, Ozzie - especially with the new guys. It would be one thing if Konerko was batting .200 going into mid-June, then I'd be okay if he called him out publicly. But saying things about new guys needing to produce immediately or their ass will be on a plane back to Charlotte is ridiculous. Most rookies aren't going to come in and light the world on fire. I don't know why he doesn't seem to understand that.

[caulfield12]

To me the most interesting part was when he talked about how guys, no matter how cocky they are, have doubts as to whether they belong when they are called up. That alone tells me that you as the manager need to make them feel as welcomed as possible. And I have on good record that Ozzie didn't always do a good job of that (*cough*Brandon McCarthy*cough*). However, I had hoped he had improved and I'm going to have to hope he has and if he hasn't I'm confident that Kenny would than make the right decision and find a manager that works better with young players.

 

I can also point to pitchers that Ozzie has done a great job handling (Richard, Danks, Floyd, Garland)

 

 

I think Ozzie, like any manager, prefers to have young players that are really ready for the big leagues and can justify their place in the line-up.

 

Let's go back to last season, he benched Uribe in the early part of the season (the same guy who had been a starter for 4 seasons and was a major part of a championship in 05) for a rookie in Alexei Ramirez...we can't just say he's biased towards Latin players, because of the four examples above.

 

Sure, there's Sean Tracey as well, but Ozzie has had problems/issues with veterans like Ordonez, Lee, O-Cabrera, Marte, Swisher, etc. Seemingly he has had a sterling record with Griffey, Thome, AJ, Crede, Dye, Konerko, Buehrle, Jenks, etc.

 

It's always going to be a "chemistry" issue when the team isn't talented and is losing.

 

How can anyone say that Ozzie has done anything but an excellent job with Clayton Richard, for example? Thornton, although he wasn't young, was "young" in terms of experience and success at the MLB level. They seemingly made the right decision with Contreras, for example...maybe they trusted him too much in allowing him to start the season when he wasn't ready, but nobody was clamoring here for Marquez or Poreda at the beginning of the season, either.

 

He played Wasserman, Owens, Fields and Andy Gonzalez in 2007 when there was no other choice...what has our team really produced since Ventura/Thomas in terms of position players? Durham/Ordonez/Lee and then Crede/Rowand over a span of about 20 years.

 

Ozzie has good reason to be skeptical about any rookie coming up and contributing, especially one rushed more than Thomas and Ventura.

 

Can any manager realistically expect to get more out of the likes of the Sean Tracey's and Lance Broadway's of the world?

 

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

Fantastic post. I think your last sentence is really very true. I've always been a huge fan of Ozzie and have defended him over the last few years for the dumb things he has said (even with his Mariotti is a "f**" thing - i always thought that was blown out of proportion). And after the World Series year, I especially felt like I'd never want another manager on this team except for Ozzie (as long as Ozzie still wanted to do the job). Unfortunately, in the last few weeks or so, I've begun to feel that if Ozzie doesn't make a few personal changes to the way he handles young players (particularly highly touted ones), Kenny may need to consider finding a new manager. We're about to start a youth movement, whether he likes it or not, and if he can't change, then we don't need his negative bulls*** around or else nobody is going to play well.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think Ozzie can change. I think he'd rather get fired than change how he does things, which makes me feel it could be a realistic possibility of seeing him go in the next year or two.

 

Also, some might say that "so and so" is a mental midget if he can't handle what Ozzie is saying, but I say that's bull. Even the cockiest/most confident of players won't play well if their manager is constantly saying things to downplay/criticize them. That's a bad way of managing, but even worse that he does this stuff in public so that millions of people can read about it. Keep it in the clubhouse, Ozzie - especially with the new guys. It would be one thing if Konerko was batting .200 going into mid-June, then I'd be okay if he called him out publicly. But saying things about new guys needing to produce immediately or their ass will be on a plane back to Charlotte is ridiculous. Most rookies aren't going to come in and light the world on fire. I don't know why he doesn't seem to understand that.

 

 

Who is this manager that you speak of? Jerry Manuel? Well, he was supposedly GREAT with the young players in 1998-2000, but then he wasn't respected enough in the clubhouse to motivate or push them over the top, right?

 

What manager wouldn't look at the White Sox job as a stepping stone to another bigger, better organization? The type of manager who bleeds White Sox black and takes the losses just as hard as the fans do?

 

Undoubtedly, something will happen between KW/Ozzie and Reinsdorf this season...and, most realistically, Ozzie would go before Kenny. I'm not sure if it's that Ozzie thinks he's more important or integral to the organization than Williams, or he brings more fans to the park, or what's going on...but there's obviously a massive battle of egos at play.

 

Or go back to Joe Girardi a few years ago when he was fired. Everyone said he was great with that young Marlins team, but then he's done so-so in New York, has been accused to being a hard-ass and too controlling and also ruining a number of pitchers.

 

I think Kenny also realizes bringing in another manager puts the focus squarely on him...if those players fail, it will be much harder to blame a new manager than it is to blame Guillen now. After all, Ozzie has NEVER had the type of team he wanted, and maybe he never will, since we play half of our games at USCF. I think perhaps he does favor players like Lillibridge, Nix and Getz (or even Owens) over players like Anderson and Fields who have such horrible strikeout ratios.

 

Perhaps that's a bias more in favor of players who can execute the fundamentals...another that Ozzie repeatedly singled out for praise when he was here was Tadahito Iguchi.

 

It's not like any of our former minor leaguers have gone on to great success elsewhere. Chris Young? Sweeney? Jeremy Reed? It has been an almost 100% fail rate for those younger players outside of Chicago, Joe Borchard is yet another example that comes to mind.

 

I guess we can look back at Aardsma now, but he pitched his way out of numerous organizations with his stubborness. Everyone in Chicago was ready to get MacDougal, no surprise that he is doing better in a non-pressure situation like Washington (see Wells, Kip).

 

Maybe we just have to realize that Fields and Anderson just aren't that good and move on instead of holding on to Ozzie mistreatment as a defense for their struggles.

 

 

[greg775]

Ozzie might like Beckham better if he'd get a hit once in a while.

He's officially off to a Robin Ventura-start to his career. Hope he rebounds as nicely as Robin did.

I mean Beckham's start at the plate has been a nightmare.

[ThunderBolt]

“I'm not going to say they're great at-bats, but he fights for his at-bats,” Guillen said. "I was a little aggravated [in one game when he swung at the first pitch] in four at-bats. I don't think that's the right approach. But I think [hitting coach] Greg Walker talked to him and said ‘You have to get a better approach at the plate, see more pitches’ and see how he handles it. In the field, he has played pretty well. Hopefully his bat comes along."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-1...0,1294965.story

Edited June 14, 2009 by Thunderbolt

[bigruss]

“I'm not going to say they're great at-bats, but he fights for his at-bats,” Guillen said. "I was a little aggravated [in one game when he swung at the first pitch] in four at-bats. I don't think that's the right approach. But I think [hitting coach] Greg Walker talked to him and said ‘You have to get a better approach at the plate, see more pitches’ and see how he handles it. In the field, he has played pretty well. Hopefully his bat comes along."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-1...0,1294965.story

He must not like AJ's approach then, how many times has he swung at the first pitch?

 

I have no problem with a guy swinging at the first pitch if its right down the pipe. Now if its a borderline strike or an offspeed pitch that isnt hanging then no, you probably shouldnt pitch. But if you see a good pitch to hit, you should probably swing at it (unless of course the pitcher has been wild or something like that).

[The Ginger Kid]

Hawk and Stoney call out blackjack for his stupidity