Future makeup of starting rotation

[chisoxfan09]

I was looking at the current rotation this weekend and debating whether or not we are rebuilding, buying or selling, etc. But the more I looked at it the more I am convinced that the starting 5 rotation does not need too much tinkering but it would be nice to add either an Ace No 1 right handed pitcher or a very strong number 2. I posted previously in another thread the possiblities of looking at trades but the potential candidates are going to cost a ton of the few RH SP that are out and are tradable. I spoke about Brandon Webb but now he is out for the year. See my point for this post is this, we have 3 very and seemingly capable lefties in the mix and the rotation is stacked on the lefty side (Buerhle, Danks, Poerda, Richard) who are currently on the 25 man roster. The only true righty that is decent with experience is Gavin Floyd but I don't see him as an Ace or strong 2 but rather as a very nice middle rotation (No 3 or 4) SP. So the thinking is if we get a true Ace this winter to balance out the lefty side then man we are set for at least 3 more years as all our starters are under control for at least that long (End of 2012). Only Free Agent I see out there at the moment who make be available albeit with injury concern just coming off of shoulder surgery I think is Ben Sheets. When he is on his game he is a legit No 1 or Ace. SO this is the potential rotation for next year:

 

1. Ace Righty via trade or Free Agency (Who????)

2. Buerhle (Lefty)

3. Floyd (Righty)

4. Danks (Lefty)

5. Poreda/Richard (Lefty)

 

Nice situation to have and we do have a couple of good righty prospects in the mix but they meay not be ready until 2011) - Hudson/Ely ** Sorry forgot to add Shirek as another strong righty candidate **

 

Any thoughts on this strategy for next year? Our SP may not actually be an area of weakness depending on what KW does before the trade deadline or in the winter.

Edited June 29, 2009 by chisoxfan09

[Jordan4life_2007]

I was looking at the current rotation this weekend and debating whether or not we are rebuilding, buying or selling, etc. But the more I looked at it the more I am convinced that the starting 5 rotation does not need too much tinkering but it would be nice to add either an Ace No 1 right handed pitcher or a very strong number 2. I posted previously in another thread the possiblities of looking at trades but the potential candidates are going to cost a ton of the few RH SP that are out and are tradable. I spoke about Brandon Webb but now he is out for the year. See my point for this post is this, we have 3 very and seemingly capable lefties in the mix and the rotation is stacked on the lefty side (Buerhle, Danks, Poerda, Richard) who are currently on the 25 man roster. The only true righty that is decent with experience is Gavin Floyd but I don't see him as an Ace or strong 2 but rather as a very nice middle rotation (No 3 or 4) SP. So the thinking is if we get a true Ace this winter to balance out the lefty side then man we are set for at least 3 more years as all our starters are under control for at least that long (End of 2012). Only Free Agent I see out there at the moment who make be available albeit with injury concern just coming off of shoulder surgery I think is Ben Sheets. When he is on his game he is a legit No 1 or Ace. SO this is the potential rotation for next year:

 

1. Ace Righty via trade or Free Agency (Who????)

2. Buerhle (Lefty)

3. Floyd (Righty)

4. Danks (Lefty)

5. Poreda/Richard (Lefty)

 

Nice situation to have and we do have a couple of good righty prospects in the mix but they meay not be ready until 2011) - Hudson/Ely ** Sorry forgot to add Shirek as another strong righty candidate **

 

Any thoughts on this strategy for next year? Our SP may not actually be an area of weakness depending on what KW does before the trade deadline or in the winter.

 

I pretty much agree with you. And I think KW does as well (as evidenced by the almost Jake Peavy acquisition). I don't want to see us making any move that involves any of our starting pitching prospects that doesn't net us a legitimate ace. Anything else would be foolish and not make a bit of sense.

[RME JICO]

If Poreda and Richard pan out as decent starters, do we even need to pick up another starter? Also, does it really matter if that pickup would be a RHP? Many teams have 4 RHP and 1 LHP or even 5 RHP, so would it matter if we had 4 LHP and 1 RHP?

[chisoxfan09]

RME, I don't disagree with you but I think either a combo of 3-2 left/righty of vice versa gives the opposition more to think about and it balances out the lineups we will face with a righty/lefty mix. Out of Poreda/Richard I only see Poreda with the stuff or potential to be Ace or strong number 2. Richard I peg for more of a strong backend starter or long relief/spot starter. Another righty who will be in his option year is Beckett but man no way the Red Sox let him go. Maybe trade material? he has been lights out now the last 3-4 starts. We can dream.

[maggsmaggs]

The only way we will get an Ace IMO is by developing one of our own. There really makes no sense to go out in FA and try to buy one. First, we won't outbid some bigger market teams and two, long-term, big-deal deals for pitchers always end poorly. We have shown by winning the WS that you can with with four #2s. An ACE is great to have, but not a necessity to win.

[SkokieSox]

If Freddy Garcia gets healthy and his velocity comes back, you almost have to consider him as well for 2010.

[Balta1701]

If Poreda and Richard pan out as decent starters, do we even need to pick up another starter? Also, does it really matter if that pickup would be a RHP? Many teams have 4 RHP and 1 LHP or even 5 RHP, so would it matter if we had 4 LHP and 1 RHP?

In our division right now, the only big RH bat that scares me is Cabrera. On the other hand, from the LH side, you have the thing Minnesota has catching that I'm convinced isn't human, Morneau, Granderson, Sizemore, HGHafner if he ever comes around, possibly some day Alex Gordon, Mark Teahen, etc. There can be some advantages to having extra lefties in a division that is loaded with strong lefty hitters.

 

And anyway...it's shaping up right now that our 6th starter next year will be Hudson if everyone keeps up what they're doing right now, so we'll have a RHP available to fill a gap if we need one.

[Chisoxfn]

Dan Hudson, get used to that name. And who knows if someone gets hurt or whether Richard/Poreda both pan out, etc. Plenty can happen. Expect the Sox to make a run at a corner OF though.

[Balta1701]

Dan Hudson, get used to that name. And who knows if someone gets hurt or whether Richard/Poreda both pan out, etc. Plenty can happen. Expect the Sox to make a run at a corner OF though.

It's somewhat hard to see how they can get around that. They have a potential CF on the way up for next year in D2: the mighty Danks, They have reinforcements at every other position on the diamond, they appear to be deep with young starting pitching, their bullpen is expensive but has a lot of good parts, and we're going to have money to spend this offseason.

[NorthSideSox72]

Dan Hudson, get used to that name. And who knows if someone gets hurt or whether Richard/Poreda both pan out, etc. Plenty can happen. Expect the Sox to make a run at a corner OF though.

Who arrives first - Hudson or Shirek?

 

[Chisoxfn]

Who arrives first - Hudson or Shirek?

Hudson is a much better prospect and arrives first.

[Chisoxfn]

It's somewhat hard to see how they can get around that. They have a potential CF on the way up for next year in D2: the mighty Danks, They have reinforcements at every other position on the diamond, they appear to be deep with young starting pitching, their bullpen is expensive but has a lot of good parts, and we're going to have money to spend this offseason.

Danks/Quentin/????. Dye probably moves to DH.

[Melissa1334]

so jeff marquez is officially a bust?

[beautox]

The only way we land an established ace is if we deplete our farm; and i would prefer we don't.

 

I don't know which of CR/AP is going to stick in the rotation but im sure one will be able to handle the back end with the other making the transition into a Matt Thornton role, which will be great to continue to have young cheap talent to plug into this roster.

 

Honestly I think in the very near future we're going to be selllers and that previously thought Homer for Dye trade goes down with one difference; we send dotel as well to the reds.

 

The Reds need a RH bat and JD fits it to a T. They like most teams also need a bit of bullpen help; add to the fact Dotel is most likely going to be a type A free agent and you have the makings of what looks to be a good trade partner.

 

Reds Get:

Jermaine Dye

Octavio Dotel

 

Sox Get:

Homer Bailey

Zack Cozart or Todd Frazier

Chris Heisey or Drew Stubbs

 

I'm well aware of the sort of stigma the phrase "coop can fix him" brings to sox fans but there is a reason it gets said; if we want a future ACE we're going to have to draft and develop him or we're going to have to take on a reclamation project like homer.

 

[Chisoxfn]

I'd be thrilled with that deal. I love Heisey and Stubbs. Both are stellar prospects. But I doubt the Reds give up all that. You are talking about some very good prospects. I realize we are also talking about very good players. It is much more likely that Dotel will be the only guy we end up getting draft pick compensation for next season.

 

If the Sox are going to deal someone it would be Liney as they might figure they could sell him (I doubt it). And right now they aren't going to make some massive sale, especially not when Quentin is due back and the starting rotation is really coming along. Plus the offense is looking better and better.

[JorgeFabregas]

It is much more likely that Dotel will be the only guy we end up getting draft pick compensation for next season.

 

It seems unlikely that Dotel would be offered arbitration because of the potential cost, no? He'd likely accept.

 

Beautox, do ya think we can avoid calling our young lefties CR/AP? It doesn't bode well.

[chisoxfan09]

I'd be thrilled with that deal. I love Heisey and Stubbs. Both are stellar prospects. But I doubt the Reds give up all that. You are talking about some very good prospects. I realize we are also talking about very good players. It is much more likely that Dotel will be the only guy we end up getting draft pick compensation for next season.

 

If the Sox are going to deal someone it would be Liney as they might figure they could sell him (I doubt it). And right now they aren't going to make some massive sale, especially not when Quentin is due back and the starting rotation is really coming along. Plus the offense is looking better and better.

 

I wonder if Matt Cain is even a remote possiblity? He also can be counted on to be a potantial Ace. The Giants are not in selling mode but with KW you can never be sure what will happen. I saw quite a few rumors linking Cain to the White Sox this past offseason. I wouldn't mind KW exploring the potential cost of landing an Ace via FA as it would be easier and not as big a hit on the farm system. But given Reinsdorf's and KW's history they are not believers in doling out multi year contracts with huge salaries to Ace type SP's. Buerhle has been the exception to extend well because he is Buerhle and the face of the franchise so to speak.

[chisoxfan09]

If Freddy Garcia gets healthy and his velocity comes back, you almost have to consider him as well for 2010.

 

I don't see Garcia long term with the White Sox. I think he may stay one year at best and as a spot starter. I don't believe his stuff will be back.

[chisoxfan09]

Hudson is a much better prospect and arrives first.

 

Chisoxfn, is Hudson on the same fast track as Poreda was? Or are his circumstances a little bit different? JPN does Hudson have a better arsenal of 3-4 pitches as oppsoed to Poreda who is continuing to improve/develop his secondary pitches with Coop?

[Chisoxfn]

Chisoxfn, is Hudson on the same fast track as Poreda was? Or are his circumstances a little bit different? JPN does Hudson have a better arsenal of 3-4 pitches as oppsoed to Poreda who is continuing to improve/develop his secondary pitches with Coop?

Hudson has a better feel for pitching so to speak, but doesn't necessarily have the plus plus pitch that Poreda has. Poreda's sinking fastball from the left side is very very legit. However, Hudson appears to be very polished as he's at his third stop in the organization this year (Low A, High A, AA). Nice mixture of pitches, good movement, and according to JPN his velocity topped out at 98 in his first start. Pitched more in the low to mid 90's though.

[chisoxfan09]

Hudson has a better feel for pitching so to speak, but doesn't necessarily have the plus plus pitch that Poreda has. Poreda's sinking fastball from the left side is very very legit. However, Hudson appears to be very polished as he's at his third stop in the organization this year (Low A, High A, AA). Nice mixture of pitches, good movement, and according to JPN his velocity topped out at 98 in his first start. Pitched more in the low to mid 90's though.

 

It would probably be more advantageous long term to have a complete arsenal of pitches with good commannd along with a mid 90's fastball. If that is going to tbe the case (I just looked at his K/BB rate and it is good) along with his WHIP then maybe he really does have a good future. 2010 seems to early fr me with Hudson although maybe a mid season call up. What I do see is a ST invite and then AAA if he does really well with BHam (Although this is my own pure speculation). :-)

[ILMOU]

Reds Get:

Jermaine Dye

Octavio Dotel

 

Sox Get:

Homer Bailey

Zack Cozart or Todd Frazier

Chris Heisey or Drew Stubbs

 

I'm well aware of the sort of stigma the phrase "coop can fix him" brings to sox fans but there is a reason it gets said; if we want a future ACE we're going to have to draft and develop him or we're going to have to take on a reclamation project like homer.

 

The Reds are fading, and they'll be sellers before we are, so I think the window of trading JD to them is all but closed. Anyway, Bailey's value is going down, not up.

 

A guy I'd like to target for the "Coop can fix him" category is Franklin Morales, currently in AAA Colorado Springs in the Rockies' system. The Rockies are a bullpen arm (or two) away from being a VERY dangerous wild card team, and a guy like Dotel could really help them. It would take a bit more to get Morales, likely, but he is still young, with a high ceiling.

 

KW will be hunting for an Ace still, now and in the offseason, and lord knows he hasn't been afraid to deplete the farm system in the past. Of course, he probably thinks a little higher of the current crop of prospects, so that may not be his MO this time. Should be interesting.

 

[chisoxfan09]

The Reds are fading, and they'll be sellers before we are, so I think the window of trading JD to them is all but closed. Anyway, Bailey's value is going down, not up.

 

A guy I'd like to target for the "Coop can fix him" category is Franklin Morales, currently in AAA Colorado Springs in the Rockies' system. The Rockies are a bullpen arm (or two) away from being a VERY dangerous wild card team, and a guy like Dotel could really help them. It would take a bit more to get Morales, likely, but he is still young, with a high ceiling.

 

KW will be hunting for an Ace still, now and in the offseason, and lord knows he hasn't been afraid to deplete the farm system in the past. Of course, he probably thinks a little higher of the current crop of prospects, so that may not be his MO this time. Should be interesting.

 

Stan, what do you think would be our chances to engage SF for Matt Cain? They want a power bat and JD does fit that bill to a tee plus maybe 1-2 prospects. Dunno just throwing it out there as it relates to the thread.

[ILMOU]

Stan, what do you think would be our chances to engage SF for Matt Cain? They want a power bat and JD does fit that bill to a tee plus maybe 1-2 prospects. Dunno just throwing it out there as it relates to the thread.

 

Yer dadgum right Cain would look great in a Sox uni, but the Giants are contending for the first time in awhile (I think they currently lead the WC standings) and Cain is a huge part of it. I'm sure they'd love JD, but they'll be more likely to part with prospects to get him, and I can't say I know much about their system.

 

If they traded Cain now, Sabean would get launched into the Bay, IMO. Saw the following article:

 

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/comments/gia...eed-249509.html

 

and it appears that Holliday is in their rumor mill. Of course, LOTS of teams will be lining up for his services, depending on the price tag.

 

[chisoxfan09]

Yer dadgum right Cain would look great in a Sox uni, but the Giants are contending for the first time in awhile (I think they currently lead the WC standings) and Cain is a huge part of it. I'm sure they'd love JD, but they'll be more likely to part with prospects to get him, and I can't say I know much about their system.

 

If they traded Cain now, Sabean would get launched into the Bay, IMO. Saw the following article:

 

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/comments/gia...eed-249509.html

 

and it appears that Holliday is in their rumor mill. Of course, LOTS of teams will be lining up for his services, depending on the price tag.

 

Yeah I know we would welcome him in a heartbeat. I kinda believe that KW went for broke with Peavy with the thought that if we had at least 4 legit starters (2 lefty/2 righty) the 5th spot would work itself out. Man was that really ever good timing that Peavy invoked the no-trade. That whole series of events lead me to believe that KW does really want an Ace type righty front liner. Problem is as many have pointed out no way other teams are gonna part with their Ace (the few that have them) and accept the same packages Towers did for SD. Gonna take at least one more MLB ready propsect to really entice a team to think about it. But the number of Aces that are tradeable are next to nothing. All of this posts are kinda inter-related but trying to stay focused on that righty front line starter.