What the Sox need

[Pants Rowland]

Watching this team and the potential emergence of Beckham made me consider the biggest needs this team has to put it in the driver's position for the division and the long term success of the team. In addition to every team always wanting to upgrade the starting pitching, I thought of ways to improve the total runs given up (ie unearned) without sacrificing offense or the bullpen.

 

It appears the best trading chip the Sox have is Dye but his offense is way too valuable to a fragile lineup to ship him out right now. However, if TCQ comes back strong and shows (2-4 weeks of no pain and solid play) that he is back for the long haul, would it make sense to ship Dye for some good prospects? The thought is you move TCQ to RF, leave pods in LF, and put BA in CF with Wise on the bench. Then move Beckham to 2B where his defense won't be as much of a liability, have Getz be the first backup in the infield, and turn those prospects from the Dye trade into a decent hitting, good glove 3B?

 

Someone mentioned Mark Teahan in a thread the other day. I doubt either the Sox or KC would be eager to help the other in the short or long term, but for the right prospects, that might be a deal worth making for both sides. I am sure there are some other candidates that also might make sense but I am too lazy to look them up right now.

 

I will back away from the keyboard and prepare to be flamed for this outrageous idea now.

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

No flaming from me. I just don't think the Sox will make any major position changes this year. Right now we are what we are. Beckham will stay at 3rd, Dye in right and if Quentin can come back will play left with Pods moving to center. It will be interesting to see who gets moved when/if we get a healthy Q.

[NorthSideSox72]

Quentin is not much of a defensive upgrade from Dye.

 

And Beckham and Alexei are still learning their positions, they are both likely to get better as the season goes on.

 

[Kyyle23]

The Royals and Sox have actually traded sort of frequently in the last couple years. Off the top of my head, MacDougal, Ramirez and Sisco. I wouldnt completely discount trading for Teahen at this point

[Buehrle>Wood]

We are absolutely not trading Dye.

 

 

Even so, you know it's July 1st. Q would have to basically comeback now if we wanted to evaluate him, which isn't happening.

[qwerty]

Quentin is not much of a defensive upgrade from Dye.

 

And Beckham and Alexei are still learning their positions, they are both likely to get better as the season goes on.

 

Dye is one of the very worst fielders annually in all of baseball. Dye is simply disgusting to watch out there. Dye's throwing arm just so happens to be one of the worst in the majors also. Quentin has long proven to be a better right fielder than left fielder, he is actually a plus defender out in right. While quentin in left is no where near as good as he is in right, he is several times better out there than dye on his best day. All the numbers and visuals suggests that much.

[NorthSideSox72]

Dye is one of the very worst fielders annually in all of baseball. Dye is simply disgusting to watch out there. Dye's throwing arm just so happens to be one of the worst in the majors also. Quentin has long proven to be a better right fielder than left fielder, he is actually a plus defender out in right. While quentin in left is no where near as good as he is in right, he is several times better out there than dye on his best day. All the numbers and visuals suggests that much.

I'm going on what I have seen from TCQ in left, having not seen him in right, so I'll take your word for it. I see Dye as below average in RF, but not as bad as some characterize him, and TCQ as slightly below avg in LF (thus, not a big upgrade). But if you are saying TCQ is better relatively in RF, then that's great, I'm happy with that.

 

[hogan873]

Dye is one of the very worst fielders annually in all of baseball. Dye is simply disgusting to watch out there. Dye's throwing arm just so happens to be one of the worst in the majors also. Quentin has long proven to be a better right fielder than left fielder, he is actually a plus defender out in right. While quentin in left is no where near as good as he is in right, he is several times better out there than dye on his best day. All the numbers and visuals suggests that much.

 

Granted Dye is not a great RFer, and is probably below par, but I don't think he's horrible. Certainly lacks some speed, but he still makes some good plays.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Granted Dye is not a great RFer, and is probably below par, but I don't think he's horrible. Certainly lacks some speed, but he still makes some good plays.

 

Dye is alright as long as he doesn't have to move laterally (I.E. he has the range of a pregnant walrus).

[caulfield12]

The Royals and Sox have actually traded sort of frequently in the last couple years. Off the top of my head, MacDougal, Ramirez and Sisco. I wouldnt completely discount trading for Teahen at this point

 

Scott Sullivan also comes to mind.

 

DJ Carrasco didn't come directly from the Royals, but he spent most of his career there. Same with Gobble. Dotel, etc.

 

Teahen? He's not much more than a career 700-725 OPS type of player, and his defense is very shaky at 3B...but he doesn't hit for enough power to hold down 3B or RF. Trading him to the White Sox, they would ask for a "premium" return.

 

Perhaps if it was a one or two year "band aid" and we'd given up on Josh Fields entirely, in which case you'd be putting Getz on the bench, moving Beckham to 2B, or moving Ramirez into CF with Getz at 2B and Gordon at SS.

 

If KW had done something logical in the offseason, it would have been to go out there and get Casey Blake.

 

 

As far as the OP goes, trading your best offensive player for what? Someone that can actually play CF on an everyday basis?

 

Beckham and Ramirez have to be considered average to below average at their positions now, Getz average or a bit above, Konerko average (range made up for by scooping so many balls out of the dirt, but he can make some bad defensive plays, too)...the only one in the outfield better than average is Anderson, although lots of metrics had/have Quentin as average/above average for LF, especially this season, where he looked like he had adjusted a bit.

 

The only player on the roster that can really play D is Nix, along with Brian. Unfortunately, the jury is still out on both of them being capable of producing enough offense to be starters on a consistent basis.

Edited July 1, 2009 by caulfield12

[qwerty]

Granted Dye is not a great RFer, and is probably below par, but I don't think he's horrible. Certainly lacks some speed, but he still makes some good plays.

 

These ''good'' plays you speak of even a mediocore player gets there with ease. Generally when a player has to dive or jab at a ball it was due to a bad jump, read, or overall speed getting to the ball. Very rarely is the ball placed perfectly in which the only way to get there is by doing everything perfect in return to hunt it down, whenever you see andruw jones dive, it was necessary. When dye dives, not so much. Dye fits into the rare group that can read the ball off the bat well, get a good jump, and yet it doesn't matter because he is just that damn slow. This is the worst group to be associated with because there is no turning back. You can learn how to get a better jump, a better read, but you cannot learn how to get faster (technically i suppose you can) at dye's age.

 

For how great dye has been here offensively in his tenure with the sox... he is a large part of the reason why the sox have been awful defensively going on four years now.

[chw42]

Quentin is not much of a defensive upgrade from Dye.

 

And Beckham and Alexei are still learning their positions, they are both likely to get better as the season goes on.

 

Actually, Dye is one of the worst outfielders in baseball. Quentin is at least mediocre to a bit above average.

[elrockinMT]

Quentin is not much of a defensive upgrade from Dye.

 

And Beckham and Alexei are still learning their positions, they are both likely to get better as the season goes on.

 

 

Actually Jermaine Dye is a very good defensive outfielder

[qwerty]

Actually Jermaine Dye is a very good defensive outfielder

 

On opposite day.

[elrockinMT]

On opposite day.

 

 

Qwerty I respectfully and totally disagree. Dye is avery good defensive RF'er and has shown it.

[elrockinMT]

These ''good'' plays you speak of even a mediocore player gets there with ease. Generally when a player has to dive or jab at a ball it was due to a bad jump, read, or overall speed getting to the ball. Very rarely is the ball placed perfectly in which the only way to get there is by doing everything perfect in return to hunt it down, whenever you see andruw jones dive, it was necessary. When dye dives, not so much. Dye fits into the rare group that can read the ball off the bat well, get a good jump, and yet it doesn't matter because he is just that damn slow. This is the worst group to be associated with because there is no turning back. You can learn how to get a better jump, a better read, but you cannot learn how to get faster (technically i suppose you can) at dye's age.

 

For how great dye has been here offensively in his tenure with the sox... he is a large part of the reason why the sox have been awful defensively going on four years now.

 

 

Knee problems slowd him the last couple years and he appears healthy this year.

[jenksycat]

Qwerty I respectfully and totally disagree. Dye is avery good defensive RF'er and has shown it.

 

Making a diving catch because you are 9 steps too slow to get to the ball in the first place does not make you a "very good" fielder. He has made some good plays crashing into the wall/robbing homers, but other than that he is slower than me.

[chw42]

Actually Jermaine Dye is a very good defensive outfielder

 

Lol no he's not...

 

He's been the worst right fielder in baseball the last 3 years according to Plus/Minus with a -72. He's made 72 below average plays.

 

Only Pat Burrell has been worse in terms of outfielders and he plays left field.

 

And according to UZR he has cost the Sox 7 runs this year in the field.

Edited July 1, 2009 by chw42

[elrockinMT]

You all are missing the real J Dye. Listen to the baseball commentators and they will tell you also that Dye is a solid defender and has a great throwing arm

[jenksycat]

You all are missing the real J Dye. Listen to the baseball commentators and they will tell you also that Dye is a solid defender and has a great throwing arm

 

Now I can't tell if you're being serious or not....I really hope not.

[chw42]

You all are missing the real J Dye. Listen to the baseball commentators and they will tell you also that Dye is a solid defender and has a great throwing arm

 

Look man, we all love JD. But some of us need to realize that he's no longer a gold glove right fielder.

 

Yes, the knee problems took a toll on him and it's very obvious.

 

Unfortunately for him, it has made his defense in right field well below average.

 

He has trouble making plays on pop ups down the lines. He also has trouble getting a line drive hit over his head (not the ones that are unplayble).

 

He only does a couple of things well and that's rob the home run (that's from experience) and taking away some line drives hit just in front of him on some very painful looking dives. He doesn't need much range for those and that's why he still does them well. The announcers and ESPN embrace these plays because they look cool. They just don't show him running in place when trying to reach a pop up between he and Chris Getz.

Edited July 1, 2009 by chw42

[chw42]

Now I can't tell if you're being serious or not....I really hope not.

 

Same here...

[qwerty]

He is serious.

[chw42]

He is serious.

 

Then I have to ask: WHY SO SERIOUS?

[Pants Rowland]

Scott Sullivan also comes to mind.

 

DJ Carrasco didn't come directly from the Royals, but he spent most of his career there. Same with Gobble. Dotel, etc.

 

Teahen? He's not much more than a career 700-725 OPS type of player, and his defense is very shaky at 3B...but he doesn't hit for enough power to hold down 3B or RF. Trading him to the White Sox, they would ask for a "premium" return.

 

Perhaps if it was a one or two year "band aid" and we'd given up on Josh Fields entirely, in which case you'd be putting Getz on the bench, moving Beckham to 2B, or moving Ramirez into CF with Getz at 2B and Gordon at SS.

 

If KW had done something logical in the offseason, it would have been to go out there and get Casey Blake.

 

 

As far as the OP goes, trading your best offensive player for what? Someone that can actually play CF on an everyday basis?

 

Beckham and Ramirez have to be considered average to below average at their positions now, Getz average or a bit above, Konerko average (range made up for by scooping so many balls out of the dirt, but he can make some bad defensive plays, too)...the only one in the outfield better than average is Anderson, although lots of metrics had/have Quentin as average/above average for LF, especially this season, where he looked like he had adjusted a bit.

 

The only player on the roster that can really play D is Nix, along with Brian. Unfortunately, the jury is still out on both of them being capable of producing enough offense to be starters on a consistent basis.

 

The thought was to improve the defense on the left side of the infield, keep Pods in LF, keep BA's glove in CF and possibly upgrade your offense a bit. As of this moment there are two average to below average defenders on the left side. Putting Pods in CF when Quentin returns will only make the defense worse. I doubt the offensive improvement will be able to compensate for worse defense, especially when facing tougher starting pitching that typically shuts down even the best lineups.

 

The reason I brought up Quentin is if he is healthy and performing on par with 2008, you might be able to give up Dye's bat in the lineup, although without TCQ it should not be considered. So, assuming Quentin is healthy, you can keep Pods in LF, where he is less of a liability, put a plus defender BA in CF and Quentin can fill in adequately for the loss of Dye.

 

Meanwhile, if you can somehow turn Dye into a decent hitting 3B with a good glove (maybe Teahan isn't the best option overall, but you get the idea), you can shift Beckham to 2B and have a nice alternative in Getz on the bench. I think even with BA as a regular bat in the lineup, Quentin, Beckham and whoever you get for Dye could compensate for the loss of Dye even with BA's light bat in there. That would simultaneously give you an improvement on defense, not hurt your lineup much, if at all, and also cut payroll a bit.

 

The alternative, as some suggested, is to get a legit CF. I like this idea a little less because I believe the left side of the infield is hampering the team's ability to move to the next level far more than the weak bats of BA or Wise. I know it brings a flashback of 2006, but I believe if BA can play above average defense in CF, we can live with him hitting .230 or so.