Upgrade at 2b via Trade

[WCSox]

Weeks of practice? Beckham had maybe a little bit over a week at 3B before he got called up. And why exactly couldn't Beckham handle 2B? He'd have more reaction time, has plenty of range, is pretty athletic, and would have plenty of arm strength at 2B. I guarantee he's played more at 2B in his life than he has at 3B.

 

That last sentence is pure conjecture on your part. Your arguments seem to rely pretty heavily on that.

 

Moving from one side of the infield to the other is not an easy transition. It completely throws off your instincts, as all of your angles and moves are the opposite of what you're used to. One doesn't have to deal with that when moving from SS to 3B. Assuming that reaction time and arm strength aren't issues, 3B is actually much easier to play than SS or 2B.

 

I already stated that my experience is obviously different than the majors. I guess you missed that part.

 

But for some reason, you're foolishly applying it to Beckham's experience in the Majors. I guess you never considered that.

 

What the hell are you talking about? First off, Beckham isn't like every other rookie. And I don't think Beckham has to worry about financial situations anytime soon, with his 2+ million dollar bonus last year and the fact that even if he doesn't turn into a superstar, he'll still make a decent sum of money playing professional baseball.

 

Beckham stands to lose tens of millions of dollars (money that could secure his entire family for generations) if he doesn't pan out in the next three seasons. He also stands to lose a career that he loves. I'd say that's plenty of pressure.

 

Look at Nix, never really played anything but 2B in his professional career. However, so far this year he has been able to play SS, 3B, LF, and RF with no problem. And I guarantee you there was more pressure on Nix because his job was on the line.

 

Nix is also four years older than Beckham, and has played 3B, 2B, and SS extensively in the minors.

 

I know it isn't the best comparison, but if you know the game of baseball and are at least a decent athlete, and aren't a mental midget, you can make the adjustments needed to switch positions in season.

 

I'm glad that you're not managing the Sox. Because you don't have much of a handle on how competitive MLB is, how much pressure highly-touted rookies are under (from the team, from the media, from themselves), and how the money involved translates into little patience on the behalf of managers and GMs for poor play. And this is exactly why Beckham didn't join the Sox in April, even after putting up a very impressive spring in Arizona.

Edited July 4, 2009 by WCSox

[caulfield12]

That last sentence is pure conjecture on your part. Your arguments seem to rely pretty heavily on that.

 

Moving from one side of the infield to the other is not an easy transition. It completely throws off your instincts, as all of your angles and moves are the opposite of what you're used to. One doesn't have to deal with that when moving from SS to 3B. Assuming that reaction time and arm strength aren't issues, 3B is actually much easier to play than SS or 2B.

 

 

 

But for some reason, you're foolishly applying it to Beckham's experience in the Majors. I guess you never considered that.

 

 

 

Beckham stands to lose tens of millions of dollars (money that could secure his entire family for generations) if he doesn't pan out in the next three seasons. He also stands to lose a career that he loves. I'd say that's plenty of pressure.

 

 

 

Nix is also four years older than Beckham, and has played 3B, 2B, and SS extensively in the minors.

 

 

 

I'm glad that you're not managing the Sox. Because you don't have much of a handle on how competitive MLB is, how much pressure highly-touted rookies are under (from the team, from the media, from themselves), and how the money involved translates into little patience on the behalf of managers and GMs for poor play. And this is exactly why Beckham didn't join the Sox in April, even after putting up a very impressive spring in Arizona.

 

 

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/N/jayson-nix.shtml

The only other position Nix played in the minors was SS, and that was a LONG time ago.

 

I'll agree that 2B should be an easier transition for a middle infielder than moving from SS to 3B. The game is so much faster at third than up the middle...even "slow" (running-wise) players like Crede can excel there with excellent anticipation and first step "quickness" whereas some more athletic players (like Fields) consistently struggle and show almost no range over there.

 

Beckham obviously played SS for most of his career...and probably a bit more 2B (especially in Spring Training) than 3B before he was recalled.

 

Uribe and Nix are two of the few players who look/ed like they could play all three positions in a comparable fashion...a lot of it has to do with arm strength, and both those guys had/have really soft hands. You can make up for a lot of mistakes at 2B and 3B with a superior 65/70-80 arm, but it will be interesting to see how all of this shakes out with SS and Ramirez coming close to a "Soriano-esque" tipping point where they might have to put him in the OF. Then again, Ramirez was very good the first half last year at 2B before seriously fading mentally and physically during the stretch run.

Edited July 4, 2009 by caulfield12

[elrockinMT]

Let's please consider our own talent and not try and trade for someone elses maybe

[WCSox]

I'll agree that 2B should be an easier transition for a middle infielder than moving from SS to 3B. The game is so much faster at third than up the middle...even "slow" (running-wise) players like Crede can excel there with excellent anticipation and first step "quickness" whereas some more athletic players (like Fields) consistently struggle and show almost no range over there

 

It all depends on the player. Ripken and A-Rod had no trouble moving from SS to 3B. Beckham seems to be handling the transition from physical range (SS) to reaction time (3B). I don't see the point in making him learn to play SS "backwards" (2B) on top of it, especially when Alexei is already proficient at 2B.

 

This talk of moving Beckham to 2B mid-season is silly. For starters, the Sox would have to acquire a better option at 3B. And even then, it would make more sense to move Beckham to SS and Alexei to 2B. For the long-term, Beckham at 2B might not be a bad idea. But not now.

 

[BearSox]

That last sentence is pure conjecture on your part. Your arguments seem to rely pretty heavily on that.

 

Moving from one side of the infield to the other is not an easy transition. It completely throws off your instincts, as all of your angles and moves are the opposite of what you're used to. One doesn't have to deal with that when moving from SS to 3B. Assuming that reaction time and arm strength aren't issues, 3B is actually much easier to play than SS or 2B.

LOL, is this serious? 3B, yeah, probably easier than SS, but 2B is arguably the easiest spot on the infield. At 2B you can get away with a weak arm and slow reflects if you have decent athleticism and range.

 

Oh yeah, 3B isn't known as the hot corner because Joe Crede played there. There are only a hand full of great defensive 3B in the past several years. If you don't have fantastic quickness and reflexes, 3B is very tough. SS gets the nod as the toughest and most important though because you need to be extremely smart, be the leader, have a LOT of range, and a strong arm.

 

And like I have said several times, if you aren't baseball retarded or a mental midget, if you have the tools Beckham has, making the transition from SS to 3B, SS to 2B, 3B to SS, 3B to 2B should really be no big deal. I'm not saying we should shift him around the infield, but if we could get a vet 3B to help us with the playoff push and move Beckham to 2B, that'd help us out a lot more.

 

But for some reason, you're foolishly applying it to Beckham's experience in the Majors. I guess you never considered that.

You asked me if I ever played baseball and I answered your damn question, which I would say was irrelevant to begin with. However, I guess you never considered the fact that I did stat they were different.

 

All I merely said is if you know what the hell you're doing out there and not fragile mentally, it should be, at the very least, do-able.

 

Beckham stands to lose tens of millions of dollars (money that could secure his entire family for generations) if he doesn't pan out in the next three seasons. He also stands to lose a career that he loves. I'd say that's plenty of pressure.

So what? What exactly is your point? There's a lot of pressure on everyone. And if you can't handle the pressure, get the f*** out of the fire. So far, Beckham has shown he can handle most of that pressure.

 

Nix is also four years older than Beckham, and has played 3B, 2B, and SS extensively in the minors.

By extensively, do you mean that he spent his first year in pro baseball at SS and then played only 2B for the majority of his professional career until this year? And I don't really see how age is relavant here. It's not like Nix has been in the majors for the past 3 years, this is his rookie year as well.

 

According to the baseballcube, the number of games he played at each spot, prior to this year:

2B - 807

SS - 40

3B - 9

everywhere else - 0

 

But you know what, that transition from SS to 2B has been really tough on Nix. And he's handled the transition from 2B to SS, 3B, LF and RF horribly. What were we thinking moving him from position to position? WAY too much pressure on him, Ozzie and KW are sooooo stupid.

 

I'm glad that you're not managing the Sox. Because you don't have much of a handle on how competitive MLB is, how much pressure highly-touted rookies are under (from the team, from the media, from themselves), and how the money involved translates into little patience on the behalf of managers and GMs for poor play. And this is exactly why Beckham didn't join the Sox in April, even after putting up a very impressive spring in Arizona.

I'm glad you're not managing the Sox either.... and I'm sure you know exactly how competitive the MLB is, as well as the exact amount of pressure every single player has on them.

 

And the reason Beckham didn't join the club out of ST, it was because he had a grand total of like 60 PA in minor league ball. I'd say he needed a little more seasoning, not matter how good he looked in ST.

[fathom]

If we signed Orlando Hudson, we wouldn't have Jared Mitchell coming into our organization. Also, Hudson has cooled off in a huge way since his hot start.

[sircaffey]

LOL, is this serious? 3B, yeah, probably easier than SS, but 2B is arguably the easiest spot on the infield. At 2B you can get away with a weak arm and slow reflects if you have decent athleticism and range.

 

Oh yeah, 3B isn't known as the hot corner because Joe Crede played there. There are only a hand full of great defensive 3B in the past several years. If you don't have fantastic quickness and reflexes, 3B is very tough. SS gets the nod as the toughest and most important though because you need to be extremely smart, be the leader, have a LOT of range, and a strong arm.

 

And like I have said several times, if you aren't baseball retarded or a mental midget, if you have the tools Beckham has, making the transition from SS to 3B, SS to 2B, 3B to SS, 3B to 2B should really be no big deal. I'm not saying we should shift him around the infield, but if we could get a vet 3B to help us with the playoff push and move Beckham to 2B, that'd help us out a lot more.

 

I gotta agree with WC on this one. The switch from SS to 2B is much more of a technical switch. Beckham's footwork around the bag would be attrotious to start of with. Sure, he has the range and instincts to play the position, but learning the footwork takes a lot of time. Not to mention you risk injury putting an inexperienced player at 2B without the correct skills to avoid runners. I'd rather keep him at 3B for this season, at the very least.

[knightni]

How cheap would Freddie Sanchez from Pittsbugh be?

 

Getz and Hudson?

 

 

[fathom]

How cheap would Freddie Sanchez from Pittsbugh be?

 

Getz and Hudson?

 

Gross...I wouldn't give up our top pitching prospect for an overpaid 2nd baseman.

[scenario]

I gotta agree with WC on this one. The switch from SS to 2B is much more of a technical switch. Beckham's footwork around the bag would be attrotious to start of with. Sure, he has the range and instincts to play the position, but learning the footwork takes a lot of time. Not to mention you risk injury putting an inexperienced player at 2B without the correct skills to avoid runners. I'd rather keep him at 3B for this season, at the very least.

 

He played 2B in the Arizona Fall League last year and looked pretty good.

 

I saw a couple of his games and he played well there... had several very good defensive plays.

 

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

 

 

Yeah, forgot about the AFL...

 

Kenny's private stomping/hunting grounds for like likes of Tyler Flowers, Gavin Floyd, Jeff Marquez and many others over the last decade.

[WCSox]

LOL, is this serious? 3B, yeah, probably easier than SS, but 2B is arguably the easiest spot on the infield. At 2B you can get away with a weak arm and slow reflects if you have decent athleticism and range.

 

Again, you're completely missing the point. The footwork, body movement, arm angle, and throwing motion at 2B are completely different than at SS. It has nothing to do with physical skill, it's about transition time. And there's no point in Beckham making that transition when the Sox are in a tight division race. This isn't rookie development time.

 

And like I have said several times, if you aren't baseball retarded or a mental midget, if you have the tools Beckham has, making the transition from SS to 3B, SS to 2B, 3B to SS, 3B to 2B should really be no big deal.

 

Following your logic, Ozzie should be able to move Beckham to CF. Because, you know, he's "baseball retarded" and a "mental midget" if he can't pick it up in a day or two. I'm glad that you're not managing the Sox, because your baseball ignorance is off the charts.

 

So what? What exactly is your point? There's a lot of pressure on everyone. And if you can't handle the pressure, get the f*** out of the fire. So far, Beckham has shown he can handle most of that pressure.

 

I'm glad that you don't have Ozzie's job, because your expectations of rookies are completely unrealistic.

 

I'm glad you're not managing the Sox either.... and I'm sure you know exactly how competitive the MLB is, as well as the exact amount of pressure every single player has on them.

 

Since I'm an adult with a 50-60 hour/week job and a family to support, I'd say that my perspective on the stress of a high-pressure professional job is a bit more informed than yours.

 

By extensively, do you mean that he spent his first year in pro baseball at SS and then played only 2B for the majority of his professional career until this year? And I don't really see how age is relavant here.

 

Right, being 27 vs. 23 and having that much baseball experience has NO significance whatsoever. Nor does Nix being a career minor-leaguer (drafted in 2001) who didn't play a single Major League game until 2008. I mean, my God, that's an almost EQUAL background to Beckham trading in his aluminum bat last summer to join the Sox minor league system. Why don't you compare Beckham to Dewayne Wise while you're at it?

 

The Sox invested a first-round pick and a couple million dollars in Beckham last year. They would be smart to handle that large investment carefully at first, and give him time to develop. If Fields weren't so bad, there's no doubt that Beckham would still be at AA right now.

 

I don't even know why you're even talking about moving Beckham to 2B in the first place. First of all, who in the hell are the Sox going to acquire at 3B? Scott Rolen, who's overpaid, injury-prone, and hasn't had a good season since 2006? Secondly, why in the hell would you put Beckham at 2B, when Alexei was a defensive stud there last season and Beckham is a natural SS? That doesn't make any sense.

Edited July 5, 2009 by WCSox

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Gross...I wouldn't give up our top pitching prospect for an overpaid 2nd baseman.

I think Kenny is past his Todd Ritchie moments, and that trade would be one of those.

 

Really Kenny has only made two bad trades since then that I can remember, those being the MacDougal deal and the first Swisher deal. But even then, nobody involved has done anything significant yet and MacDougal actually helped us a ton in 2006 when we had a legit shot at repeating, so it's kind of hard to fault Kenny for the MacDougal deal. In hindsight it was a bad move, but at the time he did exactly what we wanted him to, which was give up a couple players who were several years away in order to help out that pathetic bullpen.

[BearSox]

Again, you're completely missing the point. The footwork, body movement, arm angle, and throwing motion at 2B are completely different than at SS. It has nothing to do with physical skill, it's about transition time. And there's no point in Beckham making that transition when the Sox are in a tight division race. This isn't rookie development time.

My god, what don't you get? Sure, I never said there isn't an adjustment. But it isn't a tough one. Beckham sure handled 2B well in the AFL and Spring Training, but you're right, we should just ignore all that.

 

Following your logic, Ozzie should be able to move Beckham to CF. Because, you know, he's "baseball retarded" and a "mental midget" if he can't pick it up in a day or two. I'm glad that you're not managing the Sox, because your baseball ignorance is off the charts.

Yeah, cause CF is so comparable! Get real dude. 2B and SS are very similar, and a fairly easy transition. Beckham's played it before, and he can handle it fairly easy.

 

And again, I'm glad you're not managing the Sox.

 

I'm glad that you don't have Ozzie's job, because your expectations of rookies are completely unrealistic.

lol, what? Expecting a rookie who's played 2B before to move there mid-season is unrealistic? I'm pretty damn positive Beckham would have felt more comfortble from the beginning at 2B instead of 3B.

 

Since I'm an adult with a 50-60 hour/week job and a family to support, I'd say that my perspective on the stress of a high-pressure professional job is a bit more informed than yours.

Cool! You want a cookie? Everyone has pressure, it's the people that can preform under pressure that succeed. Like I said before, if you can't handle the pressure, get the hell out of the fire.

 

Right, being 27 vs. 23 and having that much baseball experience has NO significance whatsoever. Nor does Nix being a career minor-leaguer (drafted in 2001) who didn't play a single Major League game until 2008. I mean, my God, that's an almost EQUAL background to Beckham trading in his aluminum bat last summer to joint the Sox minor league system. Why don't you compare Beckham to Dewayne Wise while you're at it?

LoL, wow. Did I ever say they had an equal background? All I said was that Nix sure handled being thrown from 2B to SS, to 3B, to LF, and to RF pretty good considering he never played anything but 2B except for 1 season, his first, in the minors.

 

And I think we all pretty much know Gordon is pretty superior to Nix, regarding talent.

 

The Sox invested a first-round pick and a couple million dollars in Beckham last year. They would be smart to handle that large investment carefully at first, and give him time to develop. If Fields weren't so bad, there's no doubt that Beckham would still be at AA right now.

Beckham is up here to hit, not because of his defensive abilities. And you're right, if Fields didn't suck, Beckham wouldn't be here. But guess what, the whole point is to put the best lineup out there every single day.

 

I don't even know why you're even talking about moving Beckham to 2B in the first place. First of all, who in the hell are the Sox going to acquire at 3B? Scott Rolen, who's overpaid, injury-prone, and hasn't had a good season since 2006? Secondly, why in the hell would you put Beckham at 2B, when Alexei was a defensive stud there last season and Beckham is a natural SS? That doesn't make any sense.

Have you even see Rolen play this year or even looked at his stats? He's the healthest he's been since 2006, and he's done nothing but hit, and he can still pick at 3B. Having a veteran like him at 3B would really help this team in the playoff run. And we all know Beckham won't be at 3B for the long run, but he could be a very good stop gap for a year or two while we wait for Viciedo. Plus, while he's expensive, we are going to be cutting a lot of payroll, and we wouldn't make a deal if we weren't getting cash back.

 

As for moving Alexei, that seems out of the question right now as Ozzie still thinks Alexei has potential at SS and won't move him for the rest of the season... but I'll pull your card, why move Alexei back to 2B? He'd just have to readjust and it'll be impossiblezzz!!!!!!!!!!

 

And to be honest, there's no point in moving Alexei at this point. We might as well commit to him at SS for the rest of the year because he possess GG talent out there, but he is dumber than a rock.

 

As for next year, I see Alexei in the OF or 2B with Gordon at SS.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Again, you're completely missing the point. The footwork, body movement, arm angle, and throwing motion at 2B are completely different than at SS. It has nothing to do with physical skill, it's about transition time. And there's no point in Beckham making that transition when the Sox are in a tight division race. This isn't rookie development time.

 

 

 

Following your logic, Ozzie should be able to move Beckham to CF. Because, you know, he's "baseball retarded" and a "mental midget" if he can't pick it up in a day or two. I'm glad that you're not managing the Sox, because your baseball ignorance is off the charts.

 

 

 

I'm glad that you don't have Ozzie's job, because your expectations of rookies are completely unrealistic.

 

 

 

Since I'm an adult with a 50-60 hour/week job and a family to support, I'd say that my perspective on the stress of a high-pressure professional job is a bit more informed than yours.

 

 

 

Right, being 27 vs. 23 and having that much baseball experience has NO significance whatsoever. Nor does Nix being a career minor-leaguer (drafted in 2001) who didn't play a single Major League game until 2008. I mean, my God, that's an almost EQUAL background to Beckham trading in his aluminum bat last summer to joint the Sox minor league system. Why don't you compare Beckham to Dewayne Wise while you're at it?

 

The Sox invested a first-round pick and a couple million dollars in Beckham last year. They would be smart to handle that large investment carefully at first, and give him time to develop. If Fields weren't so bad, there's no doubt that Beckham would still be at AA right now.

 

I don't even know why you're even talking about moving Beckham to 2B in the first place. First of all, who in the hell are the Sox going to acquire at 3B? Scott Rolen, who's overpaid, injury-prone, and hasn't had a good season since 2006? Secondly, why in the hell would you put Beckham at 2B, when Alexei was a defensive stud there last season and Beckham is a natural SS? That doesn't make any sense.

1. I would disagree with this not being rookie development time. Look at our team: Getz, Beckham, Poreda, Richard all expected to be contributors. Our next 5-6 years are much more important than this one.

 

2. Beckham already played 2B and by all accounts he did fine. When he was drafted most analysts predicted him as our future 2B. I don't see why he can't make the transition, and also, I don't see why it's such a terrible move. It's not like he's been Joe Crede over at 3B.

 

3. I disagree that the Sox only brought Beckham up because of Fields. If Fields was hitting the crap out of the ball then I think Beckham would have come up to replace Getz. Beckham was definitely in the plans. If the Sox needed another 3B that badly they would have acquired someone. Beckham's development trumps the 2009 Sox 3B situation so they would have never, ever called him up and asked him to play a new position unless they were 100% sure that he could handle it.

 

4. Scott Rolen's numbers. Since when is .332/.392/.490 a bad year? BTW Rolen has played in 69 games this year so far, 115 last year, 112 in 2007, and 142 in 2006. 2005 was the last season he missed a huge chunk of time. If we acquired him I would want to deal for a backup just in case

 

5. I've read since we got Beckham that his range at SS was a bit limited, although I've never seen him play there since I don't get to see the Barons. But again, when he was drafted that was the wrap on him from those who analyzed the pick and did see him play. Alexei has a better arm and probably is rangier, so I don't know why you would call Beckham a natural SS while Alexei is not. Alexei is still learning and should continue to get better with time. And BTW Beckham wasn't exactly Ozzie Smith over at SS in Birmingham from the reports. I believe it was the Barons announcer who said that Beckham made more than a few errors, and even though he termed it in a friendlier way, they basically were the type of errors fans refer to as "stupid" or "lazy," which is just like how Alexei is currently. And I'm not saying either player is in any way stupid or lazy, but they both have their brain cramps and miss their fair share of easy plays that they are expected to make as shortstops. So to expect Beckham, who makes the same type of mistakes as Alexei does, who also has a lesser arm and according to reports not as much range, to come in and be as good or better than Alexei is asking a bit much.

 

[WCSox]

My god, what don't you get? Sure, I never said there isn't an adjustment. But it isn't a tough one. Beckham sure handled 2B well in the AFL and Spring Training, but you're right, we should just ignore all that.

 

This isn't the time to be moving players to different positions in general. Especially rookies.

 

Yeah, cause CF is so comparable! Get real dude. 2B and SS are very similar, and a fairly easy transition.

 

Alexei also showed that CF to 2B mid-season was a pretty easy transition as well. So if Alexei can do it, Beckham can as well, right?

 

Beckham's played it before, and he can handle it fairly easy.

 

Yep, until he commits a few errors that cost his team some games. Guys like Derek Jeter can handle that level of adversity. Other younger players who are still lacking in confidence can't. Do you want to gamble that Beckham can in his rookie year? I don't. I'd rather bring him along carefully, and save those types of moves for next season.

 

Cool! You want a cookie? Everyone has pressure, it's the people that can preform under pressure that succeed. Like I said before, if you can't handle the pressure, get the hell out of the fire.

 

I'll bet that Beckham learning 3B and having to perform well at that position shortly after at the major league level with tens of millions of dollars on the line is a bit more pressure that what you experienced taking your SAT.

 

And I think we all pretty much know Gordon is pretty superior to Nix, regarding talent.

 

Again, you focus solely on raw talent and completely brush aside age, experience, and confidence. But I'm not surprised, since you've never managed anybody in a work environment in your life.

 

Have you even see Rolen play this year or even looked at his stats? He's the healthest he's been since 2006, and he's done nothing but hit, and he can still pick at 3B. Having a veteran like him at 3B would really help this team in the playoff run.

 

Rolen is 34 years old, he's lost most of his power, he's constantly injured, and he's getting paid $11 million this year. He's also got traded from the Cards because he's a prima donna who couldn't get along with LaRussa. Giving up talent for an expensive, declining player with an attitude problem is an incredibly bad idea.

 

As for moving Alexei, that seems out of the question right now as Ozzie still thinks Alexei has potential at SS and won't move him for the rest of the season... but I'll pull your card, why move Alexei back to 2B? He'd just have to readjust and it'll be impossiblezzz!!!!!!!!!!

 

Alexei played (an exceptional) 121 games at 2B last season and has several more years of baseball experience under his belt than Beckham. That's an even worse comparison than Beckham/Nix.

 

[BearSox]

I'm done with you. According to you moving from the left side of the infield to the right side is the toughest thing everzzzzzz and it'll cost Beckham millions of dollars. Just nonsense.

[WCSox]

4. Scott Rolen's numbers. Since when is .332/.392/.490 a bad year? BTW Rolen has played in 69 games this year so far, 115 last year, 112 in 2007, and 142 in 2006. 2005 was the last season he missed a huge chunk of time. If we acquired him I would want to deal for a backup just in case

 

Rolen also has a whole 6 HRs this year. His OPS is nice (due mostly to a very good OBP), but I expect a better slugging percentage for an $11 million player in this economy. I also don't consider 115 and 112 games played anything close to a full or healthy season, and have little confidence that he'll stay healthy down the stretch. I would've given my left nut for Rolen five years ago, but he's clearly on the decline and isn't anything close to a long-term option for hte Sox.. I don't have a problem with the Sox pursuing a veteran 3B, but it's going to have to be somebody who contributes past October (if we get there). Otherwise, it'll be another Griffey-esque waste.

 

5. I've read since we got Beckham that his range at SS was a bit limited, although I've never seen him play there since I don't get to see the Barons. But again, when he was drafted that was the wrap on him from those who analyzed the pick and did see him play. Alexei has a better arm and probably is rangier, so I don't know why you would call Beckham a natural SS while Alexei is not. Alexei is still learning and should continue to get better with time. And BTW Beckham wasn't exactly Ozzie Smith over at SS in Birmingham from the reports. I believe it was the Barons announcer who said that Beckham made more than a few errors, and even though he termed it in a friendlier way, they basically were the type of errors fans refer to as "stupid" or "lazy," which is just like how Alexei is currently. And I'm not saying either player is in any way stupid or lazy, but they both have their brain cramps and miss their fair share of easy plays that they are expected to make as shortstops. So to expect Beckham, who makes the same type of mistakes as Alexei does, who also has a lesser arm and according to reports not as much range, to come in and be as good or better than Alexei is asking a bit much.

 

Perhaps I shouldn't have characterized Beckham as a "natural" SS. What I meant to convey is that he's more comfortable playing SS than 2B right now. With Alexei having played most of a season at 2B last year and doing it exceptionally well, it would make a lot more sense to move Alexei back there and move Beckham to a more familiar SS for this season, if the Sox DO end up landing a veteran 3B.

 

Edited July 5, 2009 by WCSox

[WCSox]

I'm done with you. According to you moving from the left side of the infield to the right side is the toughest thing everzzzzzz and it'll cost Beckham millions of dollars. Just nonsense.

 

Your sophomoric characterization of my posts is about what I've come to expect from you.

 

[Kyyle23]

Your sophomoric characterization of my posts is about what I've come to expect from you.

 

honestly that is going both ways. You guys have a good argument going back and forth and neither of you need to stoop to that level. You can both disagree without the "Glad you arent the coach" comment that has come from both of you

 

Carry on, if you can argue with a civil tone

[BearSox]

I'm willing to shake hands and agree to disagree if you are, WCSox... Lets be honest here, this argument hadn't gone anywhere for like the past 5 replies, it's just the same points made over and over again, except with us getting nastier and more pissed at each other. It's obvious we aren't changing each other minds, and it's getting pointless.

[WCSox]

I'm willing to shake hands and agree to disagree if you are, WCSox... Lets be honest here, this argument hadn't gone anywhere for like the past 5 replies, it's just the same points made over and over again, except with us getting nastier and more pissed at each other. It's obvious we aren't changing each other minds, and it's getting pointless.

 

That's fine with me.

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Rolen also has a whole 6 HRs this year. His OPS is nice (due mostly to a very good OBP), but I expect a better slugging percentage for an $11 million player in this economy. I also don't consider 115 and 112 games played anything close to a full or healthy season, and have little confidence that he'll stay healthy down the stretch. I would've given my left nut for Rolen five years ago, but he's clearly on the decline and isn't anything close to a long-term option for hte Sox.. I don't have a problem with the Sox pursuing a veteran 3B, but it's going to have to be somebody who contributes past October (if we get there). Otherwise, it'll be another Griffey-esque waste.

 

I think this economy and our ability to pick up Rolen is actually why we should get him. I actually mentioned this awhile back too.

 

Viciedo is still developing and should be on a plan to start in 2011. Rolen's contract is up at the end of 2010, so if we got him, we know we have defense there and we know we have a bat. No, 6 HR is not a ton, but he's also playing very well on turf in a large ballpark and that is a major statement when it comes to his health questions and his power. Rolen was always more of a pure hitter than a slugger anyway. If we got Rolen, we wouldn't necessarily be counting on him for the playoffs. I'd bring back Uribe who should cost next to nothing and is only making $1M. If Rolen doesn't finish out September, put Uribe's defense there again. Same thing in 2010, maybe a different backup though. Moving Beckham to 2B and putting Rolen at 3B is a major offensive upgrade and should be a defensive upgrade as well given Rolen's ability at the hot corner, so that should hopefully give us another 2-3 wins or maybe even more which could be enough to put us in front this season. Then in 2010 we have a stopgap, and if he gets hurt midseason, oh well, because now Viciedo is probably ready to step up and learn.

 

The key with a Rolen deal is that we get a major upgrade now without sacrificing a big part of the future, plus we get a stopgap for Viciedo, and we do it because the Jays need salary relief. If you think Beckham is our future 3B then that's one way to look at it, but I see our future IF as Viciedo-Alexei-Beckham-Allen/Flowers so even though I like Getz I would be willing to deal him elsewhere. Probably not to Toronto because they have Aaron Hill, but the Braves need a 2B, so do the Mariners, and I'm sure there are others too, so I think we could get something useful there that would make us stronger now without hurting a future team.

 

I shouldn't have characterized Beckham as a "natural" SS. What I meant to convey is that he's more comfortable playing SS than 2B right now. With Alexei having played most of a season at 2B last year and doing it exceptionally well, it would make a lot more sense to move Alexei back there and move Beckham to a more familiar SS for this season, if the Sox

Beckham probably is more comfortable at SS, but he's still going to struggle there because he was struggling a bit there in AA too. I've said from the beginning that I want to see the Sox give him positional security so he can learn at the same position he's going to stick at long-term. If the Sox feel he's the SS of the future then Alexei should be the one at 3B or CF or wherever. If they feel he's the 2B of the future then I'm all in favor of putting him there and keeping him there. If they see him as their 3B with Viciedo converting to a corner spot or 1B, then leave him at 3B. I just think they see him as their 2B because that's what he was touted as coming out of the draft and because Viciedo has stayed at 3B in AA.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[WCSox]

I think this economy and our ability to pick up Rolen is actually why we should get him. I actually mentioned this awhile back too.

 

Viciedo is still developing and should be on a plan to start in 2011. Rolen's contract is up at the end of 2010, so if we got him, we know we have defense there and we know we have a bat. No, 6 HR is not a ton, but he's also playing very well on turf in a large ballpark and that is a major statement when it comes to his health questions and his power. Rolen was always more of a pure hitter than a slugger anyway. If we got Rolen, we wouldn't necessarily be counting on him for the playoffs. I'd bring back Uribe who should cost next to nothing and is only making $1M. If Rolen doesn't finish out September, put Uribe's defense there again. Same thing in 2010, maybe a different backup though. Moving Beckham to 2B and putting Rolen at 3B is a major offensive upgrade and should be a defensive upgrade as well given Rolen's ability at the hot corner, so that should hopefully give us another 2-3 wins or maybe even more which could be enough to put us in front this season. Then in 2010 we have a stopgap, and if he gets hurt midseason, oh well, because now Viciedo is probably ready to step up and learn.

 

The key with a Rolen deal is that we get a major upgrade now without sacrificing a big part of the future, plus we get a stopgap for Viciedo, and we do it because the Jays need salary relief. If you think Beckham is our future 3B then that's one way to look at it, but I see our future IF as Viciedo-Alexei-Beckham-Allen/Flowers so even though I like Getz I would be willing to deal him elsewhere. Probably not to Toronto because they have Aaron Hill, but the Braves need a 2B, so do the Mariners, and I'm sure there are others too, so I think we could get something useful there that would make us stronger now without hurting a future team.

 

Yeah, we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Rolen got hurt in late 2004 and has put up a grand total of ONE full season since then. A player of his caliber may be a good backup plan, but I don't want the Sox spending $17 million on a guy whose prospects for a healthy year and a half in Chicago aren't good. I agree that he's having a nice season so far, but that was after missing about two weeks at the beginning of April with more injury problems. If Ricciardi would pick up a large chunk of his contract and Kenny didn't have to give up much, I might be able to get on board with it. But $17 million for a declining, injury-prone place-holder/backup plan for Viciedo is way too much. I'd rather invest less money in one of the other players named earlier in this thread. That would provide the Sox with two advantages: (1) More money to spend this (or next) winter and (2) a backup plan for Viciedo if he doesn't pan out.

 

In addition, the Jays are going to have to fall out of contention before Ricciardi can move Rolen. I'm sure that they have a pressing need for financial relief, but Ricciardi's job is also on the line after much of his spending blew up in his face last year (not to mention his embarrassing remarks about Adam Dunn last year and the famous Ted Lilly/John Gibbons fistfight). Even if the Jays fall several games below .500 later this month and a firesale is deemed necessary, Ricciardi's going to have difficulty convincing a team to pay $6 million for two months of Rolen.

 

 

Beckham probably is more comfortable at SS, but he's still going to struggle there because he was struggling a bit there in AA too. I've said from the beginning that I want to see the Sox give him positional security so he can learn at the same position he's going to stick at long-term. If the Sox feel he's the SS of the future then Alexei should be the one at 3B or CF or wherever. If they feel he's the 2B of the future then I'm all in favor of putting him there and keeping him there. If they see him as their 3B with Viciedo converting to a corner spot or 1B, then leave him at 3B. I just think they see him as their 2B because that's what he was touted as coming out of the draft and because Viciedo has stayed at 3B in AA.

 

I have no problem with Beckham eventually moving to 2B. His skills set suggests that he'll play well there. But they'd have to secure a veteran 3B to justify screwing with Beckham's development even further this year.

Edited July 5, 2009 by WCSox

[caulfield12]

Tyler Wigginton, M. Aybar, Kouzmanoff...someone along those lines? Atkins? Melvin Mora?

 

Figgins won't go anywhere now.

 

Blalock and putting him back at 3B?

Edited July 5, 2009 by caulfield12