BearSox Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 QUOTE (kwolf68 @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 02:59 PM) Why is Flowers untouchable? He's a future DH...he's definately a masher, but he's not graded to be a major league catcher at all... Cause right now it looks like he will stay behind the plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 (edited) The interesting thing about Flowers is...he could actually improve offensively but take a huge dip in trade value. If he's not a C in the future. So, in a way that has nothing to do with his offensive future, it might be sell high time. He's not super-young, just young. Edited July 6, 2009 by Princess Dye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 QUOTE (kwolf68 @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 02:59 PM) Why is Flowers untouchable? He's a future DH...he's definately a masher, but he's not graded to be a major league catcher at all... The guy hasn't caught that much in his career. To be honest, no one quite knows what his future is behind the dish. We have to let the kid play and see if he is going to grow into it or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 03:01 PM) The guy hasn't caught that much in his career. To be honest, no one quite knows what his future is behind the dish. We have to let the kid play and see if he is going to grow into it or not. It seems like he's improved a lot behind the plate. He still has a long way to go but it's very encouraging to see him improve this much already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxbrian Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 QUOTE (kwolf68 @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 01:59 PM) Why is Flowers untouchable? He's a future DH...he's definately a masher, but he's not graded to be a major league catcher at all... Flowers is growing defensively behind the plate. I think he stays there. BTW- Guzman is a real solid player. He's a switch-hitter. I'd rather he started at 2B and Getz came off the bench 1 or 2 days a week to spell Cristian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Hates Prospects Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 12:49 PM) When has KW not mortgaged the future for the present? There is a poster here called Kenny Hates Prospects for a reason. +10, lol QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 12:49 PM) remember KW saying a few years ago that if players had value in the minor leagues he wanted to find a way to translate that value to the big league club. KW has never been shy about trading away prospects, maybe he has turned over a new leaf, but his track record says anyone in the minors can be had in the right deal. Halladay will net Type A compensation after the 2010 season, Haren will cost a ton, but will solidify the rotation through 2013, Johnson is injury prone and has Boras as his agent so I dont see KW spending the farm on him. But KW will trade prospects if it lands the guy he covets. I don't see Kenny dealing everything we've got for one player like would have to be the case with Haren, but Halladay is a guy we might be able to pick up for 1-2 of our top guys and some pieces. If we can do that I am all for it. It just doesn't make sense to trade absolutely everything. BTW the Danks and Hudson love here is astounding. Not that they're not two of our best prospects, but come on, we're talking about Doc Halladay here! We're not ever going to land anyone of Halladay's caliber without giving up prospects who at least have the potential to be above average regulars in the Majors. Jeremy Reed was an awesome prospect, and was viewed as a better prospect at the time than Danks is now. Miguel Olivo was our stud catcher of the future and was practically untouchable, and Morse was the dangerous under-the-radar guy who would have made the whole deal terrible for the Sox if he hit for average and power as a MIF like some were projecting him to. And when we dealt for Freddy back then, Freddy was a soon-to-be free agent and he wasn't anywhere near as awesome as Halladay has been throughout his career. So why would anyone actually expect us to get a much better player who is also under control for longer by offering significantly less than what we offered for Freddy? I don't get all the comments about Halladay's age either. Halladay has never struck me as a guy who was on the edge of disaster. For a veteran pure power pitcher, he's about as low-risk as you're going to find. And why is it so bad that he's a workhorse? Isn't that exactly what you WANT in a pitcher? If he'd been averaging just slightly less than 200IP per season then I wouldn't consider him a true ace anyway. Halladay knows how to pitch too, so even if something did happen, it's not like he'd all of the sudden never be effective again if he lost a couple notches off his fastball. Peavy IMO would have been a much bigger risk than Halladay would be, age questions aside. If Doc actually is out there then we need to definitely explore it. Again though, I wouldn't want to mortgage everything because we're going to be counting on a young core, but if we could use one of our top guys as a centerpiece, then throw in Poreda, and then add in some other pieces who are a bit further away, I'd do it. Edited July 6, 2009 by Kenny Hates Prospects Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Jeremy Reed was an awesome prospect Mother f***er he's still awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Hates Prospects Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 03:22 PM) The interesting thing about Flowers is...he could actually improve offensively but take a huge dip in trade value. If he's not a C in the future. So, in a way that has nothing to do with his offensive future, it might be sell high time. He's not super-young, just young. I don't really think so, I mean, any team looking to acquire him knows he hasn't been catching very long, so any team that wants him is going to want him because of his bat. As I saw it, the biggest question going into the season with Flowers was not whether he'd be able to stick at C but whether his bat would play at 1B. If so, then it doesn't really matter if he sticks at C or not. It's great if he does, but if he's going to be hitting 30 HR and getting on at a .370+ clip in the Majors then you probably want him in your organization regardless. So far, Flowers has shown this year that you can expect his bat to handle 1B in case it doesn't work out at C and that is nothing but a huge plus. As for selling high, how do we know we'd be selling high? Why not let him tear up Charlotte first and let him get tons of press as being a guy who had been knocking on the door and now is about ready to bust it down? And do we have any reason to expect him to tank it in the immediate future which would force us to sell him now? Selling high is a term you normally reserve for guys who play above their heads (Marco Scutaro, Russell Branyan as examples this year) or injury-prone guys who are finally a bit healthy (the Harden deal last year) or just players with very limited ceilings in general, or players who have one exceptional tool and nothing else but are highly overrated because of their age and position. There are probably other types too, but Flowers isn't exactly a "sell high" guy IMO. You only deal him if you get something that can help you as much as you think he can, both now and in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbaho-WG Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 QUOTE (kwolf68 @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 02:59 PM) Why is Flowers untouchable? He's a future DH...he's definately a masher, but he's not graded to be a major league catcher at all... To go further, why would Hudson or Jordan Danks be untouchable? If anything, they would be prime players to be traded because their stock is extremely high right now. You're talking about a GM who flipped de los Santos after one phenomenal year (and a better one than Hudson is currently having), so I don't see why anyone outside of Beckham and possibly Vicideo should be untouchable unless you're just ignorantly latching onto someone. Are the aforementioned players extremely valuable? Absolutely. Should they be untouchable? Of course not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 QUOTE (Cerbaho-WG @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 03:49 PM) To go further, why would Hudson or Jordan Danks be untouchable? If anything, they would be prime players to be traded because their stock is extremely high right now. You're talking about a GM who flipped de los Santos after one phenomenal year (and a better one than Hudson is currently having), so I don't see why anyone outside of Beckham and possibly Vicideo should be untouchable unless you're just ignorantly latching onto someone. Are the aforementioned players extremely valuable? Absolutely. Should they be untouchable? Of course not. Hudson...yeah I could see moving him. But right now, you move him as a centerpiece of a deal. Not as Hudson + Poreda + Richard or something like that; he's climbing too rapidly. D2: the mighty Danks is untouchable because of his brother, quite frankly. We're not getting both Danks brothers to change agents away from Boras so that we can sign D2 and then trading away D2 while pissing off D1. Flowers is untouchable in the sense that we need a catcher; AJ's no spring chicken right now, and Flowers is on the perfect schedule to replace him. So basically, if you're moving Flowers, it's also as the centerpiece of a deal, and it's got to be such a good deal that you don't mind having a major hole appear at the Catcher's spot in 2 seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 QUOTE (CanOfCorn @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 01:51 PM) Agreed, but look at the quality of prospects then to now. And no, I'm not overvaluing. I think there are a lot more untouchables in the system now than there were in the recent memory. And really, how many of those prospects Kenny dealt/cut have done anything? Frank Francisco (minus mental instability) is about the only guy we've let go you'd say would definitely have a place on this team. Of course you can make arguments for Sweeney and Chris Young in CF...and Daniel Cortes MIGHT become something down the line, although I wouldn't count on it happening. Cunningham hasn't done that much. Jury's still out on C. Carter. Gio and DeLosSantos seem like even bigger long-shots at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 03:22 PM) The interesting thing about Flowers is...he could actually improve offensively but take a huge dip in trade value. If he's not a C in the future. So, in a way that has nothing to do with his offensive future, it might be sell high time. He's not super-young, just young. If he becomes a 40 homer guy with a .400 OBP, the Sox won't want him behind the plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 06:57 PM) If he becomes a 40 homer guy with a .400 OBP, the Sox won't want him behind the plate. Short-term yes, he gives your line-up a huge advantage, like Mauer/Piazza/Victor Martinez. IF IF IF you have other huge mashers to play those positions. If Konerko/Dye/Thome are gone, then it's between Viciedo, Allen, Fields and Flowers for that DH/1B spot in all likelihood. Preferably, you have the athletic Allen at 1B (maybe in a platoon with a Ross Gload/Conine type from the RH side) and Flowers at catcher, simply to balance the line-up a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 08:07 PM) Short-term yes, he gives your line-up a huge advantage, like Mauer/Piazza/Victor Martinez. IF IF IF you have other huge mashers to play those positions. If Konerko/Dye/Thome are gone, then it's between Viciedo, Allen, Fields and Flowers for that DH/1B spot in all likelihood. Preferably, you have the athletic Allen at 1B (maybe in a platoon with a Ross Gload/Conine type from the RH side) and Flowers at catcher, simply to balance the line-up a bit. Catching takes a lot out of you physically. Flowers is a big guy, he's going to take a lot of shots behind the plate. If he ever becomes a huge offensive force, especially considering he probably will only be average at best defensively, they will move him to another position to keep him healthier, and in the line-up more. Piazza was a guy the Dodgers always considered moving, but he balked. There was talk of moving Rodriquez to second as there has been talk about moving Mauer from behind the plate, and those two are or were premiere defensive catchers. Hopefully all the guys like Flowers, and Allen and Jordan Danks and Mitchell and Viciedo pan out. Chances are at least a couple will not. At least we have hope. I think Beckham will be a star and I also think the White Sox veteran players know he will be one too. Edited July 7, 2009 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 08:34 PM) Catching takes a lot out of you physically. Flowers is a big guy, he's going to take a lot of shots behind the plate. If he ever becomes a huge offensive force, especially considering he probably will only be average at best defensively, they will move him to another position to keep him healthier, and in the line-up more. Piazza was a guy the Dodgers always considered moving, but he balked. There was talk of moving Rodriquez to second as there has been talk about moving Mauer from behind the plate, and those two are or were premiere defensive catchers. Hopefully all the guys like Flowers, and Allen and Jordan Danks and Mitchell and Viciedo pan out. Chances are at least a couple will not. At least we have hope. I think Beckham will be a star and I also think the White Sox veteran players know he will be one too. Having Martinez DH/1B with Shoppach hitting 20+ homers last year from the catcher's spot, that really gave them a potent offense at times, even without Hafner. The one player that doesn't quite seem to have a home on that team is Garko...so I hope Viciedo can be more powerful and productive than Ryan (who, by the way, also kills the White Sox). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearSox Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 What I'm hoping for is kind of a platoon at C and 1B/DH like the Indians do with Shoppach and Martinez. Martinez still gets a decent amount of time behind the plate, but he gets most of his time at 1B/DH now. Obviously, this is depends on both Flowers and Phegley panning out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 01:57 AM) If he becomes a 40 homer guy with a .400 OBP, the Sox won't want him behind the plate. IB/DH maybe? I wonder though why other folks were high on Flowers as a C, but not our fans? I was under the impression he was a pretty decent backstop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 05:51 PM) IB/DH maybe? I wonder though why other folks were high on Flowers as a C, but not our fans? I was under the impression he was a pretty decent backstop. I only read and heard reports of his defensive prowess up until spring training when I witnessed it myself. Supposedly he's improved some since, but if he was the everyday catcher for the Sox since opening day this year, he'd be on a first name basis with all the people in the front row of the scout seats. The way most Sox pitchers hold runners on, its really not that imperitve IMO to have a catcher with a cannon. They aren't going to throw most of these runners out anyway. You do need someone who can block the ball and call a decent game. I just think if Flowers progresses into a real big-time hitter, the Sox won't want him to take the abuse that catchers have to take, especially considering he really doesn't help you out there defensively. Edited July 7, 2009 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 The answer to this thread is Tony Pena. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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