Haren Available?

[GreatScott82]

Obviously Haren 'is not' available. But he is indeed the guy you make available. He's the guy you mortgage your future for. Not only is he an ACE, but he is AL proven, he is only 28 years old and he in under contract until at least 2012. Three plus year of Haren, Buerhle, Floyd and Danks makes me happy!

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Anderson, Cunningham, and Carter began the year as the A's #1, #4, and #6 prospects.

 

Anderson (#7 prospect in all of MLB according to Baseball America) has started 14 games for the A's this year... including a 7-1 win over the Tigers last week.

 

Greg Smith started 32 games for Oakland last year with a 4.16 ERA.

 

Aaron Cunningham is raking in AAA while waiting for a spot to open up in Oakland's crowded outfield.

 

Carter lead all of MiLB in homeruns last year and is tearing up AA this year.

 

CarGon was one of the keys to the A's getting Holliday... is only 23 and is tearing up AAA for Colorado this year.

 

I don't think I have to go on... that's an absolute boatload of talent... all given up for Haren.

 

I'll say it one last time, then I'll shut up...

 

Interesting to talk about but... NOT.GOING.TO.HAPPEN

Yeah, I agree. The D'backs gave up an absurd amount of talent to get him and now he's an even better deal than he was before due to the extension. The Angels can "talk" all they want, but if I'm the D'Backs and I'm seriously considering taking offers for Haren, I probably start with Atlanta, Boston, Baltimore, Tampa Bay, Texas, etc. because they've all got guys the Angels, Sox, and most other teams can't beat. We'd need a quantity of quality, and I think we'd only really get deep into discussions if nobody offered up Hanson, Heyward, Buccholz, Price, Wieters, etc. Haren isn't the type of player you just all of the sudden deal because some team offers an intriguing group of players. You shop him until you find the greatest offer possible and then deal him for the best package built around the best player.

[Reddy]

Yeah, I agree. The D'backs gave up an absurd amount of talent to get him and now he's an even better deal than he was before due to the extension. The Angels can "talk" all they want, but if I'm the D'Backs and I'm seriously considering taking offers for Haren, I probably start with Atlanta, Boston, Baltimore, Tampa Bay, Texas, etc. because they've all got guys the Angels, Sox, and most other teams can't beat. We'd need a quantity of quality, and I think we'd only really get deep into discussions if nobody offered up Hanson, Heyward, Buccholz, Price, Wieters, etc. Haren isn't the type of player you just all of the sudden deal because some team offers an intriguing group of players. You shop him until you find the greatest offer possible and then deal him for the best package built around the best player.

nobody's trading Hanson, Price or Wieters for Haren. Just not going to happen. Bucholz maybe, but those first three guys are our beckham - not going anywhere for anything.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

You are probably right this won´t happen. But another point lost in all of this is that the Sox farm is much better than in previous years and we could afford to give up a package of 5/6 prospects and still keep fielding competitive team at the A/AA levels. This year´s draft was also quite good.

No, that is not true. The reason the Sox farm system is so much better is because of the 2009 Birmingham Barons. If we trade the 2009 Birmingham Barons we end up with very, very little. We have some quality prospects behind them, but Phegley is no Flowers, Morel/Gilmore is no Viciedo, CJ Retherford/Tyler Kuhn is no Gordon Beckham, and so on.

 

BTW I don't think you understand how much run support this team is going to lose when PK, AJ, Dye, and Thome all are gone. I don't think you understand how bad our pen will probably be when we can't afford to keep paying Bobby arb and Dotel is gone. We may have some salary space this year, but I don't know if you understand that to just replace Dye's production alone with another younger MLB player you're talking about spending probably $75M over 5 years at minimum just on Matt Holliday. We can't just spend money every time we need to close a gap, we really, really need the farm system to start helping us, especially in this economic climate. If we trade 5-6 players and 3 turn into above average or better MLB players at extremely low salaries then we've just forced ourselves to spend another $20M+ plus just to become good enough to make the guy we traded for actually an upgrade and not just a luxury on a mediocre-to-bad baseball team.

 

I have no problem dealing prospects at all, but we do not in any way have the depth to absorb the type of loss a Haren trade would incur, and even if we did have the depth to absorb it in 2-3 years, now is not the team to make those deals because our veteran core is all gone after 2010, with a few guys probably leaving after this season. If we make that Haren deal, by the time we rebuild the top levels of the farm our young core is getting too expensive to keep intact, and now our window of contention is only 1-2 years tops. If we do it the right way, we should hopefully end up with at least a 4 year window.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

nobody's trading Hanson, Price or Wieters for Haren. Just not going to happen. Bucholz maybe, but those first three guys are our beckham - not going anywhere for anything.

Nobody's trading Haren either. That's my point.

 

And IMO Buchholz is going to be a better pitcher than Price. I don't see Buchholz going anywhere at all.

[DBAHO]

A few of the many reasons there is no freaking way the DBacks will trade Haren...

 

Haren, who turns 29 on Sept. 17, is a logical target, but he will remain the Diamondbacks' sole ace if the team declines its $8.5 million option on righty Brandon Webb, who is facing possible shoulder surgery.

 

The D-backs picture Haren continuing not only as their No. 1 starter, but also serving as a mentor for two of their younger pitchers, righty Max Scherzer and Class AA right-hander Jarrod Parker.

 

Haren also is signed to a club-friendly contract that includes salaries of $7.5 million this season, $8.25 million next season and $12.75 million in both '11 and '12, with a $15.5 million club option or $3.5 million buyout for '13.

 

The Diamondbacks paid a steep initial price for Haren, acquiring him from the A's along with pitcher Connor Robertson for six players on Dec. 14, 2007. The A's received pitchers Brett Anderson, Dana Eveland and Greg Smith, plus outfielders Carlos Gonzalez and Aaron Cunningham and first baseman Chris Carter.

 

So... the DBacks pay a small fortune in prospects to acquire an ace with a very reasonable contract... then sign him to an extension... and then are supposed to turn around 18 months later and trade him for prospects? One of those things that fans of other teams love to think about that will never ever happen.

Josh Byrnes made that trade on the basis of that team making the NL Finals series, so if you look at their record now, I think they have some justification if they got a package they couldn't refuse.

 

Not saying it's going to happen, but it's wouldn't surprise me if it did.

[chisoxfan09]

No, that is not true. The reason the Sox farm system is so much better is because of the 2009 Birmingham Barons. If we trade the 2009 Birmingham Barons we end up with very, very little. We have some quality prospects behind them, but Phegley is no Flowers, Morel/Gilmore is no Viciedo, CJ Retherford/Tyler Kuhn is no Gordon Beckham, and so on.

 

BTW I don't think you understand how much run support this team is going to lose when PK, AJ, Dye, and Thome all are gone. I don't think you understand how bad our pen will probably be when we can't afford to keep paying Bobby arb and Dotel is gone. We may have some salary space this year, but I don't know if you understand that to just replace Dye's production alone with another younger MLB player you're talking about spending probably $75M over 5 years at minimum just on Matt Holliday. We can't just spend money every time we need to close a gap, we really, really need the farm system to start helping us, especially in this economic climate. If we trade 5-6 players and 3 turn into above average or better MLB players at extremely low salaries then we've just forced ourselves to spend another $20M+ plus just to become good enough to make the guy we traded for actually an upgrade and not just a luxury on a mediocre-to-bad baseball team.

 

I have no problem dealing prospects at all, but we do not in any way have the depth to absorb the type of loss a Haren trade would incur, and even if we did have the depth to absorb it in 2-3 years, now is not the team to make those deals because our veteran core is all gone after 2010, with a few guys probably leaving after this season. If we make that Haren deal, by the time we rebuild the top levels of the farm our young core is getting too expensive to keep intact, and now our window of contention is only 1-2 years tops. If we do it the right way, we should hopefully end up with at least a 4 year window.

 

OK I see your point but not at the depth you are trying to imply. Will take me a few more months of growing with the farm system to understand the true value of each and every team and their roster. But what is also true is that not even a deep farm system is a guaranteed recipe for a WS ring. Look at TB. They have stocked up for years and although they made it to the WS they have not cashed in yet. And there is also luck to everything. SOme players that wallow for year in AA/AAA can have a miraculours break out season in the bigs. Anything can happen. BTW, only addressing the farm, not the veteran core that provides run support.

Edited July 5, 2009 by chisoxfan09

[103 mph screwball]

I'd still trade whoever it takes for Haren. It would be nearly impossible to get a starter of that quality via free agency and fit him into the Sox budget. If the Sox trade Flowers or any of the guys slated to take, Dye, Konerko, Thome's place, you could get players via free agency to be productive. If the DBacks can be persuaded, then I'd be putting in a nice bid for him if I were KW. I'd even blow them away.

 

No, that is not true. The reason the Sox farm system is so much better is because of the 2009 Birmingham Barons. If we trade the 2009 Birmingham Barons we end up with very, very little. We have some quality prospects behind them, but Phegley is no Flowers, Morel/Gilmore is no Viciedo, CJ Retherford/Tyler Kuhn is no Gordon Beckham, and so on.

 

BTW I don't think you understand how much run support this team is going to lose when PK, AJ, Dye, and Thome all are gone. I don't think you understand how bad our pen will probably be when we can't afford to keep paying Bobby arb and Dotel is gone. We may have some salary space this year, but I don't know if you understand that to just replace Dye's production alone with another younger MLB player you're talking about spending probably $75M over 5 years at minimum just on Matt Holliday. We can't just spend money every time we need to close a gap, we really, really need the farm system to start helping us, especially in this economic climate. If we trade 5-6 players and 3 turn into above average or better MLB players at extremely low salaries then we've just forced ourselves to spend another $20M+ plus just to become good enough to make the guy we traded for actually an upgrade and not just a luxury on a mediocre-to-bad baseball team.

 

I have no problem dealing prospects at all, but we do not in any way have the depth to absorb the type of loss a Haren trade would incur, and even if we did have the depth to absorb it in 2-3 years, now is not the team to make those deals because our veteran core is all gone after 2010, with a few guys probably leaving after this season. If we make that Haren deal, by the time we rebuild the top levels of the farm our young core is getting too expensive to keep intact, and now our window of contention is only 1-2 years tops. If we do it the right way, we should hopefully end up with at least a 4 year window.

 

[ThunderBolt]

I’d feel a bit more comfortable trading Allen with Phegley in the organization and Flowers hitting well. Given that one of them might have to move positions with 1st being an ideal scenario. If we could give a package centered on Allen and Hudson I’d be all for it.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I'd still trade whoever it takes for Haren. It would be nearly impossible to get a starter of that quality via free agency and fit him into the Sox budget. If the Sox trade Flowers or any of the guys slated to take, Dye, Konerko, Thome's place, you could get players via free agency to be productive. If the DBacks can be persuaded, then I'd be putting in a nice bid for him if I were KW. I'd even blow them away.

He's a great player no doubt, but I really don't think we need that much of an upgrade to win another title. Look, aces start Game 1, Game 4, and in a huge pinch, MAYBE a Game 7. In 2005 we had 4 guys who, despite their awesome seasons, we nowhere near the type of pitcher Haren has been. And then look at guys like CC Sabathia, Jake Peavy, etc. and what they have done in the playoffs. We don't NEED a Dan Haren to win it all, and even if we got one, there's no guarantee that, just because he's a better pitcher than Jose Contreras was for his whole career minus parts of 2 seasons, he'll pitch as good as Jose did.

 

All we need to do is do what Ozzie said when he first got this job, and that is acquire horses. "You don't take donkeys to the Kentucky Derby," was the quote IIRC. Instead of trading away everything we have got, I say we keep developing a core and then add those horses when we can afford them.

 

One guy who someone made a thread about here was Chien Ming Wang. Apparently he's for sale, and that is a guy we need to take a look at. Kenny built a winner by being smart and finding bargains and projects, and if he does it again it's going to be the same way because that is his MO.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

OK I see your point but not at the depth you are trying to imply. Will take me a few more months of growing with the farm system to understand the true value of each and every team and their roster. But what is also true is that not even a deep farm system is a guaranteed recipe for a WS ring. Look at TB. They have stocked up for years and although they made it to the WS they have not cashed in yet. And there is also luck to everything. SOme players that wallow for year in AA/AAA can have a miraculours break out season in the bigs. Anything can happen. BTW, only addressing the farm, not the veteran core that provides run support.

TB has to win strictly off their farm basically because of payroll constraints. We've got the best of both worlds at least to a degree. We'll never be the Yanks, Red Sox, Dodgers, etc. when it comes to massive payroll + massive farm resources + win-now mentality, but we do have a team that has been in the top-5 to top-10 or so in payroll for a long time, and we do have an aggressive GM who wants to win, and we are taking a more logical approach to the draft when it comes to talent with higher ceilings, and we have at least made a couple big signings out of Cuba. So, we can and will do lots of things other teams will not.

 

What I'd like to see us do is try to put out a good core of young players on small contracts and then supplement that with productive veterans we can afford, most of whom we'll end up acquiring in trade for prospects.

[Dick Allen]

I hope KW saves enough prospects if he trades for Haren so if St.Louis falls out of the race he can take what he has left and trade them for Pujols. I'd say you have about the same odds of acquiring either.

[caulfield12]

He's a great player no doubt, but I really don't think we need that much of an upgrade to win another title. Look, aces start Game 1, Game 4, and in a huge pinch, MAYBE a Game 7. In 2005 we had 4 guys who, despite their awesome seasons, we nowhere near the type of pitcher Haren has been. And then look at guys like CC Sabathia, Jake Peavy, etc. and what they have done in the playoffs. We don't NEED a Dan Haren to win it all, and even if we got one, there's no guarantee that, just because he's a better pitcher than Jose Contreras was for his whole career minus parts of 2 seasons, he'll pitch as good as Jose did.

 

All we need to do is do what Ozzie said when he first got this job, and that is acquire horses. "You don't take donkeys to the Kentucky Derby," was the quote IIRC. Instead of trading away everything we have got, I say we keep developing a core and then add those horses when we can afford them.

 

One guy who someone made a thread about here was Chien Ming Wang. Apparently he's for sale, and that is a guy we need to take a look at. Kenny built a winner by being smart and finding bargains and projects, and if he does it again it's going to be the same way because that is his MO.

 

 

Interesting trade partners....from Loaiza/Contreras to the Swisher trade. I do think there would be some hesitation at the very least for them to "dump" Wang without his value rebounding (which it has been doing recently). Especially to another AL club they might face, that 2005 season with El Duque and Contreras (not to mention Marte) playing key roles must have stung just a little, adding insult to injury.

 

 

[fathom]

Wang has shoulder issues. You can drop him from any discussions.

[Heads22]

I can't imagine the Sox would even consider trading Flowers. Even the backup catcher position has been such a f***ing s*** show, and I think they appreciate the stability they've had from Pierzynski and want that going forward with Flowers.