fathom Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 QUOTE (Heads22 @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 08:47 PM) Fathom, I thought you said the other day you weren't sure where exactly KW would be looking to upgrade? I'm pretty sure that 5th spot is it. problem right now is that a 5th starter would likely cost you a package worthy of a 2nd starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heads22 Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 03:48 PM) But Danks throws a lot more over the top and has the cutter and potentially great change-up. I do love Richard's chances against lefties though, as he has good command of his slider against them. I'd love him as a swing guy out of the pen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderBolt Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Richard throws bullets when he's on, but he needs to develop his slider. The only way to do that is to give him innings, and he hasn't been a disaster in the rotation, just a work in progress. I'd still like to see Poreda start though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 I like Richard and all but why are we comparing him to Danks in terms of future performance? Danks was always thought of as a future ace and the one thing holding him back was his lack of reliable offspeed pitches. He went on and developed that in the offseason, came back and dominated, and continues to do so (start of this season notwithstanding). Richard's ceiling is nowhere near that, maybe as a #3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 (edited) I feel very strongly both ways about Clayton being in the starting rotation. But, I think Poreda needs to get a chance to start a game or three also Edited July 5, 2009 by elrockinMT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan101 Posted July 5, 2009 Author Share Posted July 5, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 03:47 PM) I would bet you we heard the exact same stuff about Danks in 2007. That is simply silly. Richard doesn't have 1/5th the celing that Danks or Floyd did as they developed, and he doesn't have 1/5th the ceiling that Aaron Poreda does either. Richard is at best a 4th or 5th starter and more likely a long relief arm. He shouldn't be in the rotation right now, especially since Poreda is on the major league club and double especially since this team is in contention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 (edited) Bringing in someone like Yadel Marti would be great, potentially he could have a Takatsu-like impact against teams unfamiliar with his stuff...pair with Contreras/Ramirez/Viciedo and give us yet another bargaining chip with young Mr. Chapman. Cubano, what's the latest with his visa/immigration/residency status? Edited July 5, 2009 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 05:18 PM) That is simply silly. Richard doesn't have 1/5th the celing that Danks or Floyd did as they developed, and he doesn't have 1/5th the ceiling that Aaron Poreda does either. Richard is at best a 4th or 5th starter and more likely a long relief arm. He shouldn't be in the rotation right now, especially since Poreda is on the major league club and double especially since this team is in contention. Richard has a very good fastball (especially for a lefty), decent/above average change-up, decent slider and so-so curveball. A lot of teams see any young lefty throwing 92-96, they salivate and think they can take the time to develop him further and improve the crispness of his secondary stuff...versus someone like Sisco who was pretty much a one-pitch thrower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 03:18 PM) That is simply silly. Richard doesn't have 1/5th the celing that Danks or Floyd did as they developed, and he doesn't have 1/5th the ceiling that Aaron Poreda does either. Buehrle didn't have a high ceiling when he was drafted either. Without implying that Richard has anywhere near Danks' talent level, there is sometimes too much reliance on scouting and projections. After draft day, those reports go out the window and players are ranked by what they do on the field. And while I agree that Richard will most likely be a 4th or 5th starter at best, we'll never know if we run him out of town and don't give him time to develop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 06:44 PM) Buehrle didn't have a high ceiling when he was drafted either. Without implying that Richard has anywhere near Danks' talent level, there is sometimes too much reliance on scouting and projections. After draft day, those reports go out the window and players are ranked by what they do on the field. And while I agree that Richard will most likely be a 4th or 5th starter at best, we'll never know if we run him out of town and don't give him time to develop. It's kind of unfair to compare Richard to Buehrle, too. When Buehrle had his first full season he got slapped around a little bit at first but he could pretty much be called an instant-impact guy after that and never looked back. If Richard was going to be compared to Buehrle he'd have to be doing that right about now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heads22 Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Plus Mark was a draft and follow guy who would have been drafted quite a bit higher by the time he was signed, as well as outstanding performances through the minors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 I think Richard is still in the rotation to build his trade value just as I think Poreda is being kept out of the rotation to keep his trade value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 07:38 PM) I think Richard is still in the rotation to build his trade value just as I think Poreda is being kept out of the rotation to keep his trade value. I've never gotten the impression that Kenny gives a s*** about trade value for his own players, if he did, he would've tried to unload Swisher later. Edited July 5, 2009 by lostfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 06:41 PM) I've never gotten the impression that Kenny gives a s*** about trade value for his own players, if he did, he would've tried to unload Swisher later. Swisher was a move driven by economics, IMO. And the right move I might add. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 04:19 PM) It's kind of unfair to compare Richard to Buehrle, too. When Buehrle had his first full season he got slapped around a little bit at first but he could pretty much be called an instant-impact guy after that and never looked back. If Richard was going to be compared to Buehrle he'd have to be doing that right about now. So is it more fair to compare Richard to Randy Johnson, who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn during his first few years in the majors and only threw two pitches effectively for most of his career? Not that Richard has even a fraction of Johnson's talent, but geez... let's at least give the guy a full year in the rotation before we start calling for his head. Due only has 18 major league starts under his belt, spread over two half-seasons. Edited July 5, 2009 by WCSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 07:50 PM) So is it more fair to compare Richard to Randy Johnson, who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn during his first few years in the majors and only threw two pitches effectively for most of his career? Not that Richard has even a fraction of Johnson's talent, but geez... let's at least give the guy a full year in the rotation before we start calling for his head. Due only has 18 major league starts under his belt, spread over two half-seasons. I don't have any issues with Richard being given a long leash. I do think Poreda is going to be a better pitcher and I want to see him getting starts, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 04:59 PM) I don't have any issues with Richard being given a long leash. I do think Poreda is going to be a better pitcher and I want to see him getting starts, though. I'm not yet sold on Poreda being a starter, but I agree that he should at least throw more innings (if not get a few starts). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 QUOTE (whitesoxbrian @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 09:39 PM) Great arm? He throws 91-93 with a medicore change-up and an average slider. His ceiling is about 4 stories lower then Danks, if you get my drift. Are we talking about Clayton Richard? He runs a fastball up there at around 97 MPH and is learning a great change up from Buerhle. He can be a legit starter for us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 03:16 PM) It depends on what your goal is. If it's the 5th starter spot, you've got 4 other guys rolling, and you're looking to develop a young pitcher for the future, then you can certainly keep throwing someone out there who struggles to get through the 5th and has bad numbers. Give you a perfect example. Full season WHIP: 1.540. Got worse every month; 2nd half 1.642 WHIP, 7.11 ERA, 1-7 record. Who am I looking at? That's John Danks, 2007. Face it, Clayton has some talent, he just needs work. He's not getting that sitting on the bench. You want to develop a young starter in to something solid, you have to put up with some struggles. Would I have a problem moving Poreda in for some starts? No. Would I expect him to go more than 4 innings? No. That's how I see it. Let's face it, we might win this season, but 2009 is about breaking some guys in to get ready for the future. Richard could very well be one of those guys. We have lived through Garland struggles and Danks struggles, and Floyd struggles. No one doubts the stuff, it is a matter of learning on the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 01:28 AM) Are we talking about Clayton Richard? He runs a fastball up there at around 97 MPH and is learning a great change up from Buerhle. He can be a legit starter for us He throws a fastball in the 92-93 mph range. The gun today was skewed, and the 96 mph last start was an anomaly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 The only pitchers on are team with legit FB's at 96-97-98 are Jenks and Thornton at times...Thornton's more consistently at 96-97 and Jenks is the only one who can reach 98/99. Poreda and Richard might both touch 96, but they're a tick or two slower by all accounts, 92-95. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Someone in this thread is talking bout Bill Bradsky but i'm not sure who Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heads22 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 03:42 PM) Yeah, he definitely doesn't have the potential that Danks does. A big issue with Richard is that his arm slot is going to make it extremely difficult for him to consistently get righties out. I can't imagine his arm slot is real conducive to any good breaking stuff outside of a slider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 QUOTE (Heads22 @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 10:07 PM) I can't imagine his arm slot is real conducive to any good breaking stuff outside of a slider. Isn't this basically the same issue with Poreda and Thornton in terms of throwing a consistent, over the top curveball, ala Doc Gooden, Zito (a bit more of an angle) or Gavin Floyd? Richard's change is getting some K's, but he really needs that change (see Danks/Buehrle) to keep the hitters from timing his FB. Maybe he can develop a slurve/frisbee pitch like Marte or Takatsu that's a 15+ MPH differential with his FB without changing his arm speed/delivery/mechanics too much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 My memory of his good outings are fading, but Richard looked great in his first couple starts. He ought to watch game tape of those games. I'd like to see some of the threads after those games. Everybody was pretty stoked and happy we didn't trade him as I recall. I'm sure our skipper and pitching coach and GM won't trot him out there much longer if he's just a four, five inning man. WHy the f*** was he so effective in his first couple starts? He was really good. Got to get him back to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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