White Sox Acquire RP Tony Pena from ARI for Brandon Allen

[whitesoxfan101]

Look if Pena can pitch as well as Matt Thornton has for the Sox, this is an excellent trade by Kenny and there's a good chance that could happen IMO.

 

Unfortunately, there's also a chance he could turn into Mike MacDougal v2.0.

 

The return for Allen should be much more of a sure thing than a risk/project type.

[prochisox]

So, now we can trade Dotel for a lesser prospect than Allen? That makes no sense. KW isn't a guy who does precursor trades. I don't get this one. I love KW, but he has made a lot of bad trades in his tenure, in addition to the good ones. I don't particularly like the Swisher trade (either time) or the Vasquez trade (either time). Quentin, yes. I just don't get this one; we are a middle reliever away?

 

Dotel will be a type A free agent at the end of the year so KW's asking price will and should be high. We just took a good young arm off the market, how many of those do u think are around or will be available by the trade deadline? We can ask for alot if we are the only ones listening to deals for arms.

[DBAHO]

The return for Allen should be much more of a sure thing than a risk/project type.

Well I don't think Pena is that much of a risk/project type, but you could argue all RP's are nowadays.

[ThunderBolt]

Meh, this sounds like a case of a prospect getting too hyped up but certain people and web sites. Besides, power hitting first baseman are pretty easy to come by. I like this move considering Linebrick has shown he is consistently awful in the second half.

I thought the reason that we all loved Allen was because he wasn’t just a power hitting 1b. The guy was a great athlete, with decent speed and a good glove. How is it that 24 hours ago, we had a decent consensus on the kid, and now that he’s been traded for a RP, half the board feels the need to turn on him? Are we that desperate to justify something we can't fully understand? I understand that some people like the move, its okay, but no need to act like those who don't are illogical for holding an opinion.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Thunderbolt

[danman31]

Futuresox, baseball cube, minorleaguebaseball, etc.. all has him born as January 12,1986. Unless I can't count I'm assuming/taking a shot at the dark here that he's an early 23.

For the record, I took his birthday off of baseball cube which has it 1/12. milb.com has it 2/12. I should have double checked. I'm sure milb is more accurate than the cube.

 

The return for Allen should be much more of a sure thing than a risk/project type.

Actually I think this trade is trading the riskier guy for the safer guy. Both players have upside and potential still, but the floor for Pena is mediocre reliever in the Majors. The floor for Allen is that he doesn't do anything in the Majors. The upside for Pena is a damn good setup guy or a closer. Allen's upside is an average/solid starting 1B. Pena has the higher floor, but the lower ceiling.

[whitesoxfan101]

Actually I think this trade is trading the riskier guy for the safer guy. Both players have upside and potential still, but the floor for Pena is mediocre reliever in the Majors. The floor for Allen is that he doesn't do anything in the Majors. The upside for Pena is a damn good setup guy or a closer. Allen's upside is an average/solid starting 1B. Pena has the higher floor, but the lower ceiling.

 

Even if I agree with every word of this (and I'd have a hard time arguing with you), I thought we were going away from the lower ceiling BS. Plus, I don't think taking a risk on a relief pitcher is all that attractive a prospect with how weird they can be.

[danman31]

I thought the reason that we all loved Allen was because he wasn’t just a power hitting 1b. The guy was a great athlete, with decent speed and a good glove. How is it that 24 hours ago, we had a decent consensus on the kid, and now that he’s been traded for a RP, half the board feels the need to turn on him? Are we that desperate to justify something we can't fully understand? I understand that some people like the move, its okay, but no need to act like those who don't are illogical for holding an opinion.

Saying he has a good glove is pushing it. He plays capable first after people thought he was going to be a DH. He is a good athlete and has decent speed for his size. I understand the complaints, but I don't have to agree with them.

[danman31]

Even if I agree with every word of this (and I'd have a hard time arguing with you), I thought we were going away from the lower ceiling BS. Plus, I don't think taking a risk on a relief pitcher is all that attractive a prospect with how weird they can be.

If you want to hate the trade because it's the safer move that's fine, but I just think a lot of people are hating the trade for the wrong reasons. Allen isn't going to be a superstar and he isn't the only option the Sox have for first base in the future.

[prochisox]

In my opinion, the minute we draft Phegley to be the future catcher, we knew we would move Flowers to 1st and that made Allen expendable. We got an arm for him where the market right now says that arms are very valuable. Now a Dotel trade can be made easier and we can wait for the right deal because we will be dealing from strength, again. This was a very good trade IMO.

[whitesoxfan101]

If you want to hate the trade because it's the safer move that's fine, but I just think a lot of people are hating the trade for the wrong reasons. Allen isn't going to be a superstar and he isn't the only option the Sox have for first base in the future.

 

My only issues with the trade are I think Allen had more potential return value than this, or on the flipside if we wanted Pena that much, we could have got him for less than Allen. Those are 2 significant issues though.

[caulfield12]

Dotel will be a type A free agent at the end of the year so KW's asking price will and should be high. We just took a good young arm off the market, how many of those do u think are around or will be available by the trade deadline? We can ask for alot if we are the only ones listening to deals for arms.

 

 

In order to get those draft picks, we'd be in the same exact situation we were in with Orlando Cabrera last season.

 

The max you can cut a guy in arbitration is 20%, and most cases go to the players, certainly Dotel would probably be guaranteed an even higher salary than 2009 with the Sox if they offered $4.8 million and he asked for, let's say $6.5-7.0 million, we would have an incredibly high-priced, sometimes inconsistent 7th inning set-up man who, like Vazquez, has great numbers but the reality of him isn't quite as good as it looks on paper with K/BB/IP ratios.

 

KW basically dared Cabrera and his agent to blink, but a lot of the Type A's will have learned their lessons (unless they change the compensation system again because of the economic landscape) and accept arbitration so as not to end up like Varitek, Cabrera, Garland, etc.

 

It took Juan Cruz forever to find a home because of his Type A status this past offseason.

 

Dotel will likely be traded before the end of the season (because you can move him much more easily than Linebrink) and Pena essentially replacing him...supported by Omogrosso, Ely, Link, Santeliz, Nunez, Rodriguez, Russell, etc.

Edited July 8, 2009 by caulfield12

[ThunderBolt]

I understand the complaints, but I don't have to agree with them.

Exactly, this is true for both sides of the debate. I for one never thought Allen would be a superstar, but I did see a lot of potential in him, and it pains me to learn that he'll either reach it or fall short of it with another organization. At the same time, this is what being a White Sox fan is, like it or not, we have a GM who’s not afraid of taking these risks. A couple of these risks brought us a World Series. So, tomorrow I’ll wake up and be fine with the knowledge that this is what KW thinks he needs to do to improve this team, but for now you can't begrudge a guy for wishing we got just a bit more for Brandon Allen.

[prochisox]

In order to get those draft picks, we'd be in the same exact situation we were in with Orlando Cabrera last season.

 

The max you can cut a guy in arbitration is 20%, and most cases go to the players, certainly Dotel would probably be guaranteed an even higher salary than 2009 with the Sox if they offered $4.8 million and he asked for, let's say $6.5-7.0 million, we would have an incredibly high-priced, sometimes inconsistent 7th inning set-up man who, like Vazquez, has great numbers but the reality of him isn't quite as good as it looks on paper with K/BB/IP ratios.

 

KW basically dared Cabrera and his agent to blink, but a lot of the Type A's will have learned their lessons (unless they change the compensation system again because of the economic landscape) and accept arbitration so as not to end up like Varitek, Cabrera, Garland, etc.

 

It took Juan Cruz forever to find a home because of his Type A status this past offseason.

 

Dotel will likely be traded before the end of the season (because you can move him much more easily than Linebrink) and Pena essentially replacing him...supported by Omogrosso, Ely, Link, Santeliz, Nunez, Rodriguez, Russell, etc.

 

I dont deny any of this, but we gave Dotel 13 million for 2 years in the first place, and I know the market has gone down, but he is more consistent then 2/3 of the rest of the bullpen arms in the league, some team will look at this and will offer arbitration and wont care about the outcome - whether having Dotel on for 1 more year at around 6 -7 million, or getting the picks. Many teams are in the hunt this year and someone will overpay, someone usually does.

[kev211]

My only issues with the trade are I think Allen had more potential return value than this, or on the flipside if we wanted Pena that much, we could have got him for less than Allen. Those are 2 significant issues though.

I'm thinking if KW could of gotten Pena for less he probably would have.

[witesoxfan]

On the bright side, the Sox bullpen is definitely the best in the AL Central (it was before, but just got stronger) and it might be the best bullpen in the AL. If games become 6 or 7 inning affairs, the Sox are going to win a lot more games.

[The Ginger Kid]

Pena contract status?

where is kalapse, on sabbatical?

[knightni]

where is kalapse, on sabbatical?

 

 

No idea. Around somewhere.

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?s=...t&p=1940452

[JPN366]

The thing that bugs me besides that he probably had more value than that, is that he is a tremendous athlete. Not just a 1B/DH type like some have said. If you saw him play for almost a year like me, you'd know he's so much more that.

[JPN366]

Saying he has a good glove is pushing it. He plays capable first after people thought he was going to be a DH. He is a good athlete and has decent speed for his size. I understand the complaints, but I don't have to agree with them.

 

He played tremendous defense for B'ham this year. He did full splits many times to catch a ball.

[JPN366]

If kenny thought Flowers couldn't catch, he would have been traded already.

 

Don't rule it out, might want to get another meh reliever.

[Soxfest]

KW loves to trade good prospects for marginal players this guy had to be had for alot less player than Allen!

[beck72]

On paper, Pena actually looks better than most people give him credit for. Doing a quick search of ESPN stats, in the past two seasons [his 2nd and 3rd full years], Pena is 3rd in MLB holds. Only Scot Shields [62] and Heath Bell [57] have had more holds than Pena [53]. That is more than Okajima [50] and Scott Downs [48]. Not coughing up leads and keeping inherited runners from scoring are key tasks for relievers. I'm not sure what his numbers are for not allowing IR from scoring, but he's done well in protecting leads.

 

Even this year, with the D-backs horrible, he's got 8 holds. Dotel has 10 and Thornton has 12.

[santo=dorf]

Holds is the stupidest stat out there. A team with a manager like LaRussa can really rack 'em up.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I didn't learn about this trade until late last night. And the first thing that popped into my head was that I'm 100% certain that all of Soxtalk is going absolutely apes*** right about now. And after reading through this thread, you guys certainly didn't disappoint.

 

First of all, who the hell is anybody from this god damn message board to say with absolute certainty (or even 50% certainty) that the Sox "could've gotten more" for Brandon f***in' Allen? Unless you can find a direct quote from any one of the 28 other general managers in baseball clearly stating they would've traded the Sox a lot more than Tony Pena for Brandon Allen then please, with all due respect, STFU! Because all you do is make yourself look and sound incredibly stupid. I like this board overall. But the ignorance/arrogance around here at times is simply incomprehensible. Unless your JPN or Scenario or BHAMBARONS and you happen to live close by one of our minor league affiliates or you're a subscriber to MILB.com, most of you have never seen a single f***ing live Brandon Allen at-bat. And that includes me. s***, I love to track prospects. But I have no first-hand knowledge about any of these guys. All I can do is go by stats, scouting reports, ect. Yet we've got message board "experts" around here on their f***ing high horses acting like they know more than guys that get PAID FOR A LIVING to scout and break these guys down? Get the f*** outta here. Brandon Allen for the most part appears to be a solid prospect. He could be really good, bad or somewhere inbetween. Who knows? And we won't know for a while. So let's stop acting like we traded away the next Ryan Howard.

[beck72]

Holds is the stupidest stat out there. A team with a manager like LaRussa can really rack 'em up.

Meaningless or not, if you look at each years top 10, top 15 leaders in holds, there are few names there that are horrible. It's mostly about consistency. A guy who can consistently keep his team in games, by not blowing leads, is valuable.

 

So far, Pena has done that the last 2 years. Few other names have been able to do that on a year in, year out basis. And IIRC, Ariz. uses their relievers like the Sox do, in set roles, not like LaRussa who uses his entire bullpen each day.