White Sox Acquire RP Tony Pena from ARI for Brandon Allen

[beck72]

Took me a few days to respond cause I'm just not sure how I feel about this deal. First off, hopefully there was something in his mechanics that Cooper saw that he can fix ala Thornton. As for Allen, I'm not high on him at all but I really think he could have at least been a piece to a bigger deal(not the center piece). Oh well, hopefully we get a new and improved Tony Pena.

It's probably more like Kenny and staff saw Pena pitch when he was lights out and had him "in their sights" list, of players to acquire should they come available. Coop probably isn't consulted on trades but can fix something if he sees a guy throw in person. IIRC, that's what Coop had said in some past trades, that he isn't really consulted before a deal goes through.

[JPN366]

IMO, the Sox probably felt Allen had higher trade value now than he would at the end of the year...

 

That memories of his outstanding performance in 2008 were still pretty recent and gave them a window to 'sell higher' than memories of his so-so performance in 2009 would...

 

Which is probably true given the way things were going for him in Charlotte. Unless things turned around for him in a big way during the 2nd half in Charlotte, his trade value would likely have fallen off the proverbial cliff.

 

So... I was initially surprised by his being dealt, but the more I think about it... the more logical it seems.

 

I wish we had gotten more for him, but... KW has a pretty respectable track record with deals involving our prospects, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

Richar/Cunningham didn't work out.

[Balta1701]

It's probably more like Kenny and staff saw Pena pitch when he was lights out and had him "in their sights" list, of players to acquire should they come available. Coop probably isn't consulted on trades but can fix something if he sees a guy throw in person. IIRC, that's what Coop had said in some past trades, that he isn't really consulted before a deal goes through.

They reportedly didn't consult Cooper before grabbing Gavin Floyd, that one I can understand. This one...if they didn't have Coop's opinion of his "Fixability" before making the deal, then they made a really stupid deal.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Richar/Cunningham didn't work out.

Or the Swisher deals, or the MacDougal deal.

 

But, I still stand behind him on the MacDougal deal as well as the second Swisher deal. The first Swisher deal I didn't like.

 

And BTW it doesn't necessarily matter if a prospect we trade pans out or not. What matters is whether or not we got appropriate value out of those prospects at the time they did have value. It's not a bad trade if you get a good player who helps you for a prospect who goes on to do some good things, but it is a bad trade if you get a guy who doesn't help you, regardless of whether the spects you gave up turn into anything.

[ThunderBolt]

Or the Swisher deals, or the MacDougal deal.

 

But, I still stand behind him on the MacDougal deal as well as the second Swisher deal. The first Swisher deal I didn't like.

Why? It was clearly a s*** deal from the time it was reported. It’s gotten progressively worse as the year goes on.

[G&T]

They reportedly didn't consult Cooper before grabbing Gavin Floyd, that one I can understand. This one...if they didn't have Coop's opinion of his "Fixability" before making the deal, then they made a really stupid deal.

 

Coop has repeatedly said that he is not consulted on any of KW's moves. Thornton was an exception. And remember, Coop wanted Thornton before KW did.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Why? It was clearly a s*** deal from the time it was reported. It’s gotten progressively worse as the year goes on.

Which one?

 

The MacDougal deal gave us a guy who was a dominant reliever to help out our garbage bullpen during a season where we were favorites for the Series.

 

The second Swisher deal dumped a guy who the Yankees couldn't even find a taker for once they signed Tex. Swisher might be the most overrated player that still gets discussed here. He was a s***ty CF and didn't have the bat to replace Dye or CQ in a corner, or Paulie at 1B, or Thome as a DH. He had no reason to be on this team and reportedly was stubborn and selfish to go along with it. Plus I've never seen a guy take so many called third strikes in so many crucial situations. At least swing the f***ing bat for Christ's sakes. His numbers are better this year, but I still don't want that guy on my team in CF and I have higher hopes at 1B/LF/RF/DH than Swisher's career line of .244/.356/.454. If you add above-average defense and some very good speed then it would be a different story, but Swisher = not the player Kenny thought he was getting. Dumping him was the right call.

[ThunderBolt]

Which one?

 

The MacDougal deal gave us a guy who was a dominant reliever to help out our garbage bullpen during a season where we were favorites for the Series.

 

The second Swisher deal dumped a guy who the Yankees couldn't even find a taker for once they signed Tex. Swisher might be the most overrated player that still gets discussed here. He was a s***ty CF and didn't have the bat to replace Dye or CQ in a corner, or Paulie at 1B, or Thome as a DH. He had no reason to be on this team and reportedly was stubborn and selfish to go along with it. Plus I've never seen a guy take so many called third strikes in so many crucial situations. At least swing the f***ing bat for Christ's sakes. His numbers are better this year, but I still don't want that guy on my team in CF and I have higher hopes at 1B/LF/RF/DH than Swisher's career line of .244/.356/.454. If you add above-average defense and some very good speed then it would be a different story, but Swisher = not the player Kenny thought he was getting. Dumping him was the right call.

Ah, another iteration of this moment in blind Nick Swisher hate. The Yankees never shopped Swish after acquiring him, why? Because he was a good acquisition they gave and we received absolutely nothing of value outside of a AA reliever. They got a high OPB, league-average defensively CF/1B with good pop. We got to start Dewayne Wise. Uh, yay?

[BearSox]

League average defensively in CF??? You sure about that?

[ThunderBolt]

League average defensively in CF??? You sure about that?

His rating tends to change depending on usage and park factors, but yes, he's more then adequate when your only other options are Wise and Owens. Can we nip this arguement in the bud and go back to Brandon Allen? I don't feel like doing this again.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Ah, another iteration of this moment in blind Nick Swisher hate. The Yankees never shopped Swish after acquiring him, why? Because he was a good acquisition they gave and we received absolutely nothing of value outside of a AA reliever. They got a high OPB, league-average defensively CF/1B with good pop. We got to start Dewayne Wise. Uh, yay?

 

The Yankees did look to trade him but Nady got hurt so early that put the kabash on that. And Swisher is far from league average in CF. All indications were that Swisher was problems in the clubhouse last year and has a reputation of being selfish. I'm completely fine having gotten rid of him. It's funny you say it is "blind Nick Swisher hate" when there are a lot of reasons to be disgusted with him. You apparently somehow havent seen any of them yet.

[ThunderBolt]

The Yankees did look to trade him but Nady got hurt so early that put the kabash on that. And Swisher is far from league average in CF. All indications were that Swisher was problems in the clubhouse last year and has a reputation of being selfish. I'm completely fine having gotten rid of him. It's funny you say it is "blind Nick Swisher hate" when there are a lot of reasons to be disgusted with him. You apparently somehow havent seen any of them yet.

Get over it, man. Nick Swisher is good at baseball. He had one bad year, just because it was our team, doesn’t make it logical to make baseless accusations about the guy. With every other team he’s been on he’s gotten along absolutely famously with every member of the team. We have no idea what happened least year outside of Joe Cowley pursing some weird sort of vendetta against the guy. Maybe Ozzie crossed a line, maybe Swisher just reaction poorly to being benched for Dewayne f***ing Wise. All I know is that the Yankees have no regrets over getting Nick Swisher, and the sox have Jeff Marquez and Wilson Betemit. Outside of last year, Nick Swisher was the class clown who kept the clubhouse light, now he’s the anti-Christ that’s an impressive fall from grace.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Get over it, man. Nick Swisher is good at baseball. He had one bad year, just because it was our team, doesn’t make it logical to make baseless accusations about the guy. With every other team he’s been on he’s gotten along absolutely famously with every member of the team. We have no idea what happened least year outside of Joe Cowley pursing some weird sort of vendetta against the guy. Maybe Ozzie crossed a line, maybe Swisher just reaction poorly to being benched for Dewayne f***ing Wise. All I know is that the Yankees have no regrets over getting Nick Swisher, and the sox have Jeff Marquez and Wilson Betemit. Outside of last year, Nick Swisher was the class clown who kept the clubhouse light, now he’s the anti-Christ that’s an impressive fall from grace.

 

Funny you telling someone to "get over it" after one post on the subject when you've complained about the trade in this thread about 20 separate times...

 

If you want to ignore what many other see so be it. The guy is a career .244 hitter and is unbelievably streaky. Even after his ridiculous hot start this year his average has managed to plummet below 250. If Nady didn't get Swisher would be riding the bench as a 4th OF. Most of my friends are glad to have him since Nady got hurt but they've begun to get annoyed with him recently as well.

[JPN366]

Rockies considering trading Garrett Atkins for David Weathers and Carlos Gonzalez for Freddy Sanchez. I guess in comparison, the Allen/Pena deal isn't so bad if the Rockies made those moves.

[kristofer]

Get over it, man. Nick Swisher is good at baseball. He had one bad year, just because it was our team, doesn’t make it logical to make baseless accusations about the guy. With every other team he’s been on he’s gotten along absolutely famously with every member of the team. We have no idea what happened least year outside of Joe Cowley pursing some weird sort of vendetta against the guy. Maybe Ozzie crossed a line, maybe Swisher just reaction poorly to being benched for Dewayne f***ing Wise. All I know is that the Yankees have no regrets over getting Nick Swisher, and the sox have Jeff Marquez and Wilson Betemit. Outside of last year, Nick Swisher was the class clown who kept the clubhouse light, now he’s the anti-Christ that’s an impressive fall from grace.

 

nick swisher's .239 average is so good.

[whitesoxfan101]

nick swisher's .239 average is so good.

 

No, but his .370 on base and .849 OPS (which are way more important than batting average) would look pretty good for us right now.

[caulfield12]

So you'd play Swisher in LF?

 

Swisher would be better than Anderson/Owens/Wise because of the disparity between their offensive games isn't enough to keep Swisher's D in CF out of the line-up...but with Quentin playing and healthy (IF IF IF?), he doesn't seem to have a clearly defined role yet again, with Pods obviously moving to CF and staying in the leadoff position, at least against RHP and some LHP.

[BearSox]

Nick Swisher is a terrible baseball player. I'm so tired of the OBP and OPS argument... Guess what, bottom of the 9th, runner on 2nd, 2 outs, down by 1. You don't need a walk or strikeout. You need a basehit.

 

Plus, Swisher was a baby in the clubhouse who cried about being benched after he sucked for so long. Plus, he was streaky as f***. And he had a god awful approach the plate. Anytime a hitter goes up to bat looking for a walk all the time, that's just bad baseball. And he sucks in CF.

 

I think batting average has easily become the most underrated stat in baseball. All people care about are OBP and OPS, and those stats are fine and all, but no matter how you put it, a career .240 hitter who strikeouts 130+ times a season better hit 30+ homers and drive in 100+ runs every year, and Swisher just doesn't do that.

Edited July 10, 2009 by BearSox

[CSF]

Take it FWIW, but in yesterday's Yankees-Twins game, Swisher did a hop ala Soriano when catching a popup, which apparently, didn't sit very well with Girardi. Probably doesn't mean anything, but wasn't character issues one of the reasons why Swisher was dealt?

[lostfan]

Nick Swisher is a terrible baseball player. I'm so tired of the OBP and OPS argument... Guess what, bottom of the 9th, runner on 2nd, 2 outs, down by 1. You don't need a walk or strikeout. You need a basehit.

 

Plus, Swisher was a baby in the clubhouse who cried about being benched after he sucked for so long. Plus, he was streaky as f***. And he had a god awful approach the plate. Anytime a hitter goes up to bat looking for a walk all the time, that's just bad baseball. And he sucks in CF.

 

I think batting average has easily become the most underrated stat in baseball. All people care about are OBP and OPS, and those stats are fine and all, but no matter how you put it, a career .240 hitter who strikeouts 130+ times a season better hit 30+ homers and drive in 100+ runs every year, and Swisher just doesn't do that.

After the last post that said he was good at baseball, I was going to post "correction, he is OK at baseball" but passed. Now I'll say it, he's not terrible, and he's not good either. He's ok. He's about a league average outfielder, and has a crappy batting average (albeit with some pop) and strikes out a lot, but a really good OBP raises his status from "bad baseball player" to "all right player." People get carried away talking about his OBP making him underrated, this doesn't mean he's good. It just means he's not bad.

[WhiteSoxfan1986]

The problem with the Swisher trade is that we traded him at his lowest possible value. We trade DLS, Gio, and Sweeney for him than trade him for nothing a year later. He's not a great player, but it was stupid to trade him at his lowest value getting nothing in return.

[WhiteSoxfan1986]

Rockies considering trading Garrett Atkins for David Weathers and Carlos Gonzalez for Freddy Sanchez. I guess in comparison, the Allen/Pena deal isn't so bad if the Rockies made those moves.

 

The Rockies would be retarded to make those moves.

[SoxFan1]

Rockies considering trading Garrett Atkins for David Weathers and Carlos Gonzalez for Freddy Sanchez. I guess in comparison, the Allen/Pena deal isn't so bad if the Rockies made those moves.

Yikes.

 

[BearSox]

Rockies considering trading Garrett Atkins for David Weathers and Carlos Gonzalez for Freddy Sanchez. I guess in comparison, the Allen/Pena deal isn't so bad if the Rockies made those moves.

They'd be selling low on Atkins, but they gotta get rid of him to get his sucky-ness out of the lineup and allow Stewart (big fan of his) to become the clear cut 3B. I don't see what use the Reds would have for him unless they feel they should shut down Encarcion for the rest of the season to play it safe. Maybe they figure if he does decent they could get more value from some team in the offseason.

 

Atkins really should have been traded in the offseason when he had some value. He is the classic example of a mediocre player becoming good because he played half of his games in Coors. Look at his splits from 07 and 08, and even a bit this year, his OPS drops around 200 or more points away from Colorado. In 06, his splits were great on the road at home mainly because it was his first time around the league, IMO. He does play solid D though, IIRC, and does hit lefties well. His best role in the future will likely be a platoon player at 3B/1B.

 

Plus, considering the Rockies really need a setup guy who doesn't blow, Weathers makes some sense. If I'm colorado, I make the trade. It gives you a better chance at competing for the Wild Card.

 

As for the Carlos Gonzalez - Freddy Sanchez trade, if the Pirates pick up some of the money for his vesting option, I do that trade in a heartbeat if I'm colorado. Even if they don't pick up any of his contract, I still think I do it. Carlos Gonzalez is still riding on that hype he had back in Arizona, and the fact he could be traded for the 3rd time in 3 years tells you something. He's like a glorified Ryan Sweeney right now, IMO. I don't see why the Pirates would want another "potential filled OF" who hasn't shown he can hit for power, but they've done a lot of stupid things this year, IMO. I guess their plan is throw s*** at the wall and see what sticks.

 

Freddy Sanchez, while I think is a bit overrated, would thrive in Coors, and really make them a better contender. They could use him at 2B and make Barmes (who is doing solid this year) the utility guy.

 

Both of these trades would be good, IMO, for the Rockies if they want to be serious Wild Card contenders.

[BearSox]

After the last post that said he was good at baseball, I was going to post "correction, he is OK at baseball" but passed. Now I'll say it, he's not terrible, and he's not good either. He's ok. He's about a league average outfielder, and has a crappy batting average (albeit with some pop) and strikes out a lot, but a really good OBP raises his status from "bad baseball player" to "all right player." People get carried away talking about his OBP making him underrated, this doesn't mean he's good. It just means he's not bad.

Stats are only a part of why I call him a bad baseball player. I call him a bad baseball player mainly because he doesn't act/play like a baseball player should. I don't like the way he carries himself on the field, I think he's got a god awful approach at bat, he doesn't seem to take anything seriously, he crys when he gets benched, etc. Big whoop, he walks a lot. I still say he's a bad baseball player.

 

I also throw BA and Fields into the category of bad baseball players. Neither of them seem to know the fundamentals of the game. Well, BA knows how to field and run, but he has no clue at bat and is just going basically got by so far with god given talent. But with both of them, you see little leaguers with better swings then them. Good athletes with talent, but just bad baseball players.