chw42 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 08:37 PM) Mike Gonzalez was the main piece in that deal. Oh that's right. Well he was the main prospect in that deal then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderBolt Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 D-Backs think Brandon Allen is 2010 ready. http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman/status/2524547374 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Whoa, how good is this guy? I've never even heard of him, and I thought Allen was supposed to be one of our bigger prospects. I just looked him up, and his stats are mediocre at best and he's 27. I'm sure I missed an explanation somewhere in this thread, but could someone copy and paste it for me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 08:40 PM) D-Backs think Brandon Allen is 2010 ready. http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman/status/2524547374 They wouldn't have made the deal if they thought he sucked... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderBolt Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 09:41 PM) They wouldn't have made the deal if they thought he sucked... Clearly, you aren't familiar with how the D-Backs work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G&T Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 09:40 PM) D-Backs think Brandon Allen is 2010 ready. http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman/status/2524547374 If that's the case, then the move was terrible for the Sox. But somehow I doubt that will pan out. The Sox have done a great job of scouting their own talent in recent years. There is no reason to think, as of right now, that this was a mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderBolt Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (G&T @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 09:43 PM) There is no reason to think, as of right now, that this was a mistake. Except for those of us who don’t see Tony Pena as a worthy return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 I remember watching Pena throw in the 2007 postseason when he was part of the D-backs stellar bullpen and was pretty impressed. He had 30 holds that year and he would have been unattainable to start 2008. Looks like a good pick up. I also believe Dotel should be moving teams soon. When the market for relievers is stronger than it is for hitters [as Huston Street is supposed to have more value than the hitters out there, via numerous media reports], Dotel should be able to net a decent prospect with an upside of Brandon Allen. I have a strong suspicion that Brandon Allen won't live up the numbers he put up in AA this year. Kenny and Co. certainly do their homework on the guys in the sox system. Whether Pena lives up to his 2007 year or not, we'll see. But Allen probably won't come back and haunt the sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 08:29 PM) Honestly, I don't get it...We traded for Javy, everyone was upset. The prospect we gave up for him has been underwhelming at best. While Javy was here, hardly anyone wanted him. Kenny traded him away, and now people are complaining about the return. Even though the centerpiece of the deal is playing well in AA at a premium position. People just always need to complain about everything. Javy Vazquez was not traded for Brent Lillibridge. It's not the Vazquez deal alone (I did group it with Swisher for a reason), it's just that I've collectively linked them as proof that last offseason was not very good for our scouts and Williams. For Flowers to be the only thing decent coming out of Swisher and Vazquez is just a reality that is incapable of being spun positively. Mainly, the issue here is that you cant acquire a total of seven players in exchange for two of your major leaugers (who are both doing well for their respective teams, BTW), and hope that only ONE becomes productive. And Flowers better turn into something or else it will really be looked at as a terrible offseason of trades for Williams. Edited July 8, 2009 by Flash Tizzle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie Ball Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (G&T @ Jul 8, 2009 -> 02:43 AM) If that's the case, then the move was terrible for the Sox. But somehow I doubt that will pan out. The Sox have done a great job of scouting their own talent in recent years. There is no reason to think, as of right now, that this was a mistake. I don't see your logic. Just because you're a starter doesn't mean you're good especially in Arizona. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G&T Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (Ozzie Ball @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 09:47 PM) I don't see your logic. Just because you're a starter doesn't mean you're good especially in Arizona. I'm assuming that if he's starting, he actually deserves to start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPN366 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 I'm disgusted. I don't care what anybody else thinks. Was David Weathers not available? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G&T Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 09:44 PM) Except for those of us who don’t see Tony Pena as a worthy return. What would have been a worthy return? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Hates Prospects Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (Ozzie Ball @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 08:17 PM) If we want to look into some more advanced statistics (which obviously we do), we see that Pena's tRA and FIP over the past couple of years are very good and both those metrics are far better for predicting future success than ERA. But why hasn't his actual production matched his true ability? Bad luck? Whatever it is I'm sure Coop'll fix it. I'm sure bad luck accounts for his .276 BAA vs. righties, .317 BAA vs. lefties, and 1.938 WHIP on the road. AZ fans are sure happy to see him gone. Hopefully Coop sees something though, and I hope Kenny talked with Coop and gave Coop some video beforehand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderBolt Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (G&T @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 09:49 PM) What would have been a worthy return? I'd have packaged Allen in a three or four player deal for premium pitcher or bat. Edited July 8, 2009 by Thunderbolt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (Flash Tizzle @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 08:46 PM) It's not the Vazquez deal alone (I did group it with Swisher for a reason), it's just that I've collectively linked them as proof that last offseason was not very good for our scouts and Williams. For Flowers to be the only thing decent coming out of Swisher and Vazquez is just a reality that is incapable of being spun positively. Mainly, the issue here is that you cant acquire a total of seven players in exchange for two of your major leaugers (who are both doing well for their respective teams, BTW), and hope that only ONE becomes productive. And Flowers better turn into something or else it will really be looked at as a terrible offseason of trades for Williams. Well, I can't disagree with you in regards to Swisher, as I never understood that deal. But the Vazquez deal, if even Flowers turns into the player he in all past history appears he can be, that deal will have been worth it. Would I have liked to get some more out of the deal, of course, but you have to keep in mind that last offseason was probably the worst offseason to be dumping salary in recent history. I'm sure there wasn't a whole lot of interest out there for two guys making decent coin that were coming off mediocre years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 08:41 PM) Whoa, how good is this guy? I've never even heard of him, and I thought Allen was supposed to be one of our bigger prospects. I just looked him up, and his stats are mediocre at best and he's 27. I'm sure I missed an explanation somewhere in this thread, but could someone copy and paste it for me? This is about it -- we overrated Allen, many teams have an Allen-like player in the system, he wasn't showing the power numbers in Birmingham that would be expected of a power 1st baseman, Pena has good stuff, Pena will be projected to replaced Dotel, Coop will fix him, He's paid the league minimum. Basically, any and all excuses that come up positively for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (G&T @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 08:49 PM) What would have been a worthy return? Here's what I want to know -- is there not a younger, more productive relief pitcher in their minor league system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 08:50 PM) I'm sure bad luck accounts for his .276 BAA vs. righties, .317 BAA vs. lefties, and 1.938 WHIP on the road. AZ fans are sure happy to see him gone. Hopefully Coop sees something though, and I hope Kenny talked with Coop and gave Coop some video beforehand. I'm positive Kenny shows Cooper these guys on video and Coop gives him the thumbs up or thumbs down. My guess is Coop and Kenny identified this guy a long while ago, and he just became available now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 07:34 PM) I wholeheartedly disagree that this trade is a "no-brainer." A "no-brainer" means getting a guy who is awesome now and under control, not someone who doesn't miss bats in the National League. I have faith in Kenny's judgement so I'll wait and see, but this was definitely not a no-brainer. Carter and Allen were basically the same player, raw athletic 1B drafted out of high school with lots of power, except one hit lefty and the other righty. I have no idea why Carter would have a ton more potential than Allen. Allen to me looked like the better player. If Carter played in Birmingham and Allen had stayed in Birmingham then their numbers would likely almost mirror each other. I don't understand how we can just trade Allen and then talk about Fields. Allen is a lot better bet than Fields at this point. Look at it this way...if it does come to pass. Jim Thome (DH, assuming Konerko stays) and Tony Pena >>> Brandon Allen and Octavio Dotel for 2010 They'll just take the money from Dotel and that would be a nice number (maybe a bit higher) to keep Thome around one more year...he certainly doesn't have any reason to want to leave Chicago or go to the NL, so it seems his options are pretty limited. And getting to 600 homers in a White Sox uniform would be another nice story for the franchise. Edited July 8, 2009 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Hates Prospects Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (Flash Tizzle @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 08:46 PM) It's not the Vazquez deal alone (I did group it with Swisher for a reason), it's just that I've collectively linked them as proof that last offseason was not very good for our scouts and Williams. For Flowers to be the only thing decent coming out of Swisher and Vazquez is just a reality that is incapable of being spun positively. Mainly, the issue here is that you cant acquire a total of seven players in exchange for two of your major leaugers (who are both doing well for their respective teams, BTW), and hope that only ONE becomes productive. And Flowers better turn into something or else it will really be looked at as a terrible offseason of trades for Williams. Gilmore is still young, but I'd be lying if I said his numbers this year have been impressive. He's waaaay inconsistent and a butcher at third. Santos Rodriguez sounded like the #2 guy in that deal and he's just getting started, so we'll have to wait a while. Nunez I like as a future reliever. But you're right, Flowers is the only marquee guy from those deals at this point. Marquez doesn't exactly inspire a lot of confidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Bad trade I say from the cell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 See that piece of garbage that just gave up all those runs in tonight's game? The Indians gave up a PROVEN MLB player that plays multiple positions and has hit everywhere he's been for him, and we are pissed at moving Brandon Allen? There is some serious delusion on this board if you think adding another meh prospect to a group of meh prospects was going to net you an elite or even a great player. Pena slots directly into the 7th or 8th inning next year and gets to work with one of the best pitching coaches in the game. Good deal, but all in all nothing really that should warrant more than 5 pages on this board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G&T Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 09:51 PM) I'd have packaged Allen in a three or four player deal for premium pitcher or bat. Here's my problem: If his value is maximized in a trade package, then he has no real value at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderBolt Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 10:00 PM) See that piece of garbage that just gave up all those runs in tonight's game? The Indians gave up a PROVEN MLB player that plays multiple positions and has hit everywhere he's been for him, and we are pissed at moving Brandon Allen? There is some serious delusion on this board if you think adding another meh prospect to a group of meh prospects was going to net you an elite or even a great player. Pena slots directly into the 7th or 8th inning next year and gets to work with one of the best pitching coaches in the game. Good deal, but all in all nothing really that should warrant more than 5 pages on this board. Really, Rock? 'Cause Derosa for Perez and Allen for Pena are the same damn deal? We're dealing with upside, in a non-salary based move. Edited July 8, 2009 by Thunderbolt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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