White Sox GM Hampered by low Attendance

[SoxFan562004]

I'm not disputing the poor performance and the bad weather. What my argument is is that Sox fans are using the economy for an excuse when it isn't the reason fans are going to less games. It's just one that seems more justifiable.

it's a mix, I don't think the economy is 100% the reason. I think they will draw well if they continue to play better, Q comes back healthy and throw in the Bos and NYY series.

 

However, for me the economy has cost me money in and health insurance. I got a nasty infection and had to pay out of pocket for the doctors visit and some meds, that cost me a Sox game... also have 2 friends who are bros and in the same union, they are working 20-30 hours a week when they were working 40+ last year, my brother-in-laws company cut down hours and may close a branch of their company (luckily not his), my dad is a computer consultant and the company he consults for (located on the south side and big number of Sox fans) had consultants take 1 week of unpaid vacation and cut their hourly rate and employees had to take 2 weeks of unpaid vacation... I can go on and on about personal experiences I know of people being hit by the economy on their day to day pay, not just 401ks or investements. It's a mix of reasons, but the economy is certainly one of them

[iamshack]

The truth is the fans haven't come because the product was crap. JR said the 2008 was boring. Its like a restaurant winning some prestigious award, but saying their food wasn't really so good. To fix it, they are going to use cheaper ingredients and raise the prices on the menu. That should fix things.

 

The White Sox raised ticket prices and lowered payroll. What other team did that? They had the season ticketholder playoff money held hostage. I think that is something that is very important. If they sell off and aren't in a position to collect non refundable playoff money from season ticketholders, the poster suggesting a huge drop in renewals, probably will be right if the Sox try raise prices again. Considering JR's edict is to not lose money, so you would have to assume they didn't lose any last year, wouldn't the White Sox actions suggest they were anticipating a drop?

 

Just remember, the only teams more expensive for a family to see are the Mets, Yankees, Red Sox and Cubs. Even the Red Sox had trouble selling out playoff games last year. Gammons wrote they had tickets available day of game, and they weren't give backs. The White Sox gave the Dodger series a very high pricing tier. They priced a lot of people out. The numbers speak for themselves. That's not on the fans, that's on whoever tried to get an extra 15-20 a seat.

 

Ok, so tell me, why do the White Sox not belong on that list of teams? Are the White Sox not from a major market like the NY teams, or the Red Sox? Are they not in fact in the same city as the Cubs are? I don't understand why the White Sox should not be amongst that group?

 

As for the fact that they lowered their payroll and increased prices, this team is the last team that should be considered cheap. They have consistently been amongst the highest in payrolls despite the middle in attendance. How can you argue that they should do more?

[iamshack]

it's a mix, I don't think the economy is 100% the reason. I think they will draw well if they continue to play better, Q comes back healthy and throw in the Bos and NYY series.

 

However, for me the economy has cost me money in and health insurance. I got a nasty infection and had to pay out of pocket for the doctors visit and some meds, that cost me a Sox game... also have 2 friends who are bros and in the same union, they are working 20-30 hours a week when they were working 40+ last year, my brother-in-laws company cut down hours and may close a branch of their company (luckily not his), my dad is a computer consultant and the company he consults for (located on the south side and big number of Sox fans) had consultants take 1 week of unpaid vacation and cut their hourly rate and employees had to take 2 weeks of unpaid vacation... I can go on and on about personal experiences I know of people being hit by the economy on their day to day pay, not just 401ks or investements. It's a mix of reasons, but the economy is certainly one of them

 

And I am not disputing that.

 

What I am disputing is when every single fan says the economy the economy the economy.

 

All KW said was that their numbers have been down this year and it could preclude them from making a big acquisition.

 

Why is that so offensive to people? It's the truth.

 

Honestly, this organization goes beyond the call of duty to put a competitive team on the field. Much more so than it's fan base supports it economically. To seem offended by these comments is just another example of our fanbase being an angry, defensive, and stubborn group.

 

That is all I am saying.

[southsideirish71]

The truth is the fans haven't come because the product was crap. JR said the 2008 was boring. Its like a restaurant winning some prestigious award, but saying their food wasn't really so good. To fix it, they are going to use cheaper ingredients and raise the prices on the menu. That should fix things.

 

The White Sox raised ticket prices and lowered payroll. What other team did that? They had the season ticketholder playoff money held hostage. I think that is something that is very important. If they sell off and aren't in a position to collect non refundable playoff money from season ticketholders, the poster suggesting a huge drop in renewals, probably will be right if the Sox try raise prices again. Considering JR's edict is to not lose money, so you would have to assume they didn't lose any last year, wouldn't the White Sox actions suggest they were anticipating a drop?

 

Just remember, the only teams more expensive for a family to see are the Mets, Yankees, Red Sox and Cubs. Even the Red Sox had trouble selling out playoff games last year. Gammons wrote they had tickets available day of game, and they weren't give backs. The White Sox gave the Dodger series a very high pricing tier. They priced a lot of people out. The numbers speak for themselves. That's not on the fans, that's on whoever tried to get an extra 15-20 a seat.

 

Maybe Kenny should pick up a paper, or watch the news because they keep talking about the worst financial crisis since the great depression. Maybe some of the people who would normally go to a game, are trying to figure out how to pay their mortgage. Maybe some of them are worried about the future stability of their job, and might not want to fork down 160 to 240 bucks to take the family to the game. I consider myself a pretty well off fella. But when my company decides to close 20 percent of its locations in the US, I start to curb back some of my discretionary spending.

 

Kenny and Ozzie also have been talking about fire sales and unpopular moves all year long. That sends a message. You can't talk about breaking up the team, and then after a quick run then wonder why large amounts of people are not paying 20 bucks more a ticket to see the team you called crap 10 days before.

 

Sometimes I wonder about perspective of Kenny and Jerry.

Edited July 8, 2009 by southsideirish71

[SoxFan562004]

And I am not disputing that.

 

What I am disputing is when every single fan says the economy the economy the economy.

 

All KW said was that their numbers have been down this year and it could preclude them from making a big acquisition.

 

Why is that so offensive to people? It's the truth.

 

Honestly, this organization goes beyond the call of duty to put a competitive team on the field. Much more so than it's fan base supports it economically. To seem offended by these comments is just another example of our fanbase being an angry, defensive, and stubborn group.

 

That is all I am saying.

I see your point, I just don't think KW should have said it due to the beating may are taking in this economy.

 

I 100% agree that this org has done a great job being competative and what they have done with the farm system the last year has been awesome.

 

Although, judging attendance trends in the past, pure hypothetical, if the Sox add Halladay or another big name tomorrow they get a bump in attendance. I think in this division the Sox will stick around all year and attendance will be down from last year, but not at the level it is right now

[Dick Allen]

Ok, so tell me, why do the White Sox not belong on that list of teams? Are the White Sox not from a major market like the NY teams, or the Red Sox? Are they not in fact in the same city as the Cubs are? I don't understand why the White Sox should not be amongst that group?

 

As for the fact that they lowered their payroll and increased prices, this team is the last team that should be considered cheap. They have consistently been amongst the highest in payrolls despite the middle in attendance. How can you argue that they should do more?

Why does it cost more for a beer at USCF than at Wrigley Field? They can belong on the list, but except for 2005, the White Sox haven't won a playoff series since when, 1919? Its not like they have this tradition of winning they are trying to sell. They have had some nice seasons, and a few not so nice ones. I really can't say they are a top 5 organization in baseball. They know what they are up against attendance-wise. Everyone knew they would have to win to get a decent walk up. They haven't won until recently.

 

This is my 20th season with season tickets. This has been the first year I called them cheap. I

[Dick Allen]

Maybe Kenny should pick up a paper, or watch the news because they keep talking about the worst financial crisis since the great depression. Maybe some of the people who would normally go to a game, are trying to figure out how to pay their mortgage. Maybe some of them are worried about the future stability of their job, and might not want to fork down 160 to 240 bucks to take the family to the game. I consider myself a pretty well off fella. But when my company decides to close 20 percent of its locations in the US, I start to curb back some of my discretionary spending.

 

Kenny and Ozzie also have been talking about fire sales and unpopular moves all year long. That sends a message. You can't talk about breaking up the team, and then after a quick run then wonder why large amounts of people are not paying 20 bucks more a ticket to see the team you called crap 10 days before.

 

Sometimes I wonder about perspective of Kenny and Jerry.

You make some excellent points. I'm doing fine right now, but I work for someone else. I could walk into the office tomorrow and be told I'm out of a job. Then what? It makes you a little hesitant to spend money on something that really isn't necessary. I just heard yesterday the ratio of people looking for jobs vs. the amount of available openings is pretty ugly. I'm confident I won't be laid off, but who knows what's next and if you lose your job, how long until you find another one? There was another article I read were most execs who lose their jobs these days will NEVER make the money they were making again.

[iamshack]

Why does it cost more for a beer at USCF than at Wrigley Field? They can belong on the list, but except for 2005, the White Sox haven't won a playoff series since when, 1919? Its not like they have this tradition of winning they are trying to sell. They have had some nice seasons, and a few not so nice ones. I really can't say they are a top 5 organization in baseball. They know what they are up against attendance-wise. Everyone knew they would have to win to get a decent walk up. They haven't won until recently.

 

This is my 20th season with season tickets. This has been the first year I called them cheap. I

 

What have the Mets won? The Cubs? It's not just about winning, it's about the market you're in.

 

 

[fathom]

Walk-up sales are so important to our attendance. Cubs basically sell out their games well before they ever start. It's a lot harder for some families to justify going to a Sox game on impulse and having to spend 250 dollars for entertainment. I've tried to get a lot of my friends to go to a Sox game and buy tickets on the day of the game, but far too often this year they've said that they need to watch how they spend their money. That didn't happen in previous years.

[WCSox]

I really don't get the anger over his comments.

 

He didn't say the fans sucked, he didn't say the team was unappreciated, he said their numbers are off of what they expected. I don't understand why that is such a venomous statement.

 

I swear, White Sox fans are incredibly thin-skinned and defensive, whether it comes to the Cubs, the attendance, or an outsider being objective about the organization.

 

I don't agree with the ticket prices and Kenny's comments could probably be taken the wrong way by some. Fair enough.

 

But I agree with shack that a disproportionately large percentage of Sox fans are a bunch of whiners. Not that Kenny has been a perfect GM, but he's done nothing but spend, spend, and spend on veteran talent since 2005. And Sox attendance was right back at the MLB average just two years after he brought home a championship. Guess what, people? No organization can sustain a $100 million payroll indefinitely with average-to-mediocre attendance. If you don't like it, feel free to drive 8 miles north to watch the Cub out-spend the Sox and have fewer results to show for it.

 

And when you whine about Wise and Lillibridge being on the Opening Day roster this season, keep in mind that the same "arroagant" GM responsible for that completed a deal for Jake Peavy two months later. Seriously, some of you are in need of perspective.

 

[caulfield12]

What have the Mets won? The Cubs? It's not just about winning, it's about the market you're in.

 

 

I think the White Sox would do well to study the Angels' example of how to compete and be perceived as almost "even" with the Dodgers in a city/region that probably had a similar split (60/40) of Dodgers to Angels fans.

 

Moreno has reasonable prices, lots of new/innovative ideas because of his advertising and marketing background, reasonable parking prices...bringing in marquee names like Guerrero and Hunter and Texeira, etc. We will never compete on the same level as the Big 4 (Yankees/Cubs/Red Sox/Mets), but why can't we be close to the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim?

 

Or look at the A's as an example of the "second team" in a market being left in the dust and practically begging for relocation.

 

Of any franchise I hope we could become it terms of consistency, attendance, tradition...it would probably be the Cardinals, who are the singular obsession in St. Louis, and they also have had two of the games' biggest superstars in McGwire in the 90's and Pujols now.

 

 

[WCSox]

I think the White Sox would do well to study the Angels' example of how to compete and be perceived as almost "even" with the Dodgers in a city/region that probably had a similar split (60/40) of Dodgers to Angels fans.

 

Moreno has reasonable prices, lots of new/innovative ideas because of his advertising and marketing background, reasonable parking prices...bringing in marquee names like Guerrero and Hunter and Texeira, etc. We will never compete on the same level as the Big 4 (Yankees/Cubs/Red Sox/Mets), but why can't we be close to the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim?

 

Because the Sox aren't in a market of 20 million. I agree that Moreno is an outstanding owner (the best in MLB, IMO), but he has a massive advantage with SoCal's population. It also helps that the Angels are big in Orange County, which is relatively affluent.

 

[iamshack]

I think the White Sox would do well to study the Angels' example of how to compete and be perceived as almost "even" with the Dodgers in a city/region that probably had a similar split (60/40) of Dodgers to Angels fans.

 

Moreno has reasonable prices, lots of new/innovative ideas because of his advertising and marketing background, reasonable parking prices...bringing in marquee names like Guerrero and Hunter and Texeira, etc. We will never compete on the same level as the Big 4 (Yankees/Cubs/Red Sox/Mets), but why can't we be close to the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim?

 

Or look at the A's as an example of the "second team" in a market being left in the dust and practically begging for relocation.

 

Of any franchise I hope we could become it terms of consistency, attendance, tradition...it would probably be the Cardinals, who are the singular obsession in St. Louis, and they also have had two of the games' biggest superstars in McGwire in the 90's and Pujols now.

 

The Angels are an outstanding franchise. No disputing that.

 

However, the level of knowledge the average Angel fan has about that franchise is far above and beyond that of the average Sox fan.

 

I truly believe a huge step in the process of raising revenues for the ballclub is to educate the fanbase. I think they would then be more willing to support the franchise because they would understand just how special this current ownership group and GM are. We are truly blessed, people. This group makes EVERY EFFORT to win year in and year out, with a very limited fanbase. Imagine what it could do with more support...

[maki]

The Angels are an outstanding franchise. No disputing that.

 

However, the level of knowledge the average Angel fan has about that franchise is far above and beyond that of the average Sox fan.

 

I truly believe a huge step in the process of raising revenues for the ballclub is to educate the fanbase. I think they would then be more willing to support the franchise because they would understand just how special this current ownership group and GM are. We are truly blessed, people. This group makes EVERY EFFORT to win year in and year out, with a very limited fanbase. Imagine what it could do with more support...

there is pretty much NO reason to believe the Angels' fanbase is any more or less knowledgeable about the game than the average sox fan. what would be the reasoning behind this? baseball as a sport is not scrutinized by the masses and there's not much out there saying the fans of the Angels are any different.

 

[Chicago White Sox]

This thread is ridiculous. Here is what Kenny said:

 

"We expected a little more fan support than we have gotten. It's a reflection of the economy. And I don't know if we've played consistent enough or been exciting enough for people to get behind us yet."

 

So first he states attendance is down because of the economy, which is a true statement. Then he points out that the team has had it's share of struggles and implies that less fans have showed up for that reason, which is also true. Where does he does he call Sox fans cheap? I don't see the insult.

 

Oh yeah and he said this:

 

"We had been a little aggressive in our projections initially, and we might have to take a lot closer look at it because the Dodgers series certainly was an eye-opener for us."

 

Now he admits they overestimated demand and/or priced tickets too highly. He admits the Dodgers series was an "eye-opener" for his staff, which it should have been. I'm not going to argue that raising ticket prices 11% and cutting payroll by $20 million makes a lot of sense. They obviously had their reasons for it, whether wrong or right. However, no one should fault Kenny or the White Sox for admitting they can't spend big dollars on a trade when revenues from attendance have been so low. The Sox are probably already several million in the red. It's unfair and borderline crazy to expect they to go even further in that direction without seeing some sort increase in fan support first.

[iamshack]

there is pretty much NO reason to believe the Angels' fanbase is any more or less knowledgeable about the game than the average sox fan. what would be the reasoning behind this? baseball as a sport is not scrutinized by the masses and there's not much out there saying the fans of the Angels are any different.

 

No? Have you read message boards before? Let's face it, the midwest, and the White Sox fanbase in particular, is a very "blue-collar" fanbase. It's a fanbase that, relative to others, does not spend as much of its time in front of a computer, due in large part to the occupations it holds. That is not necessarily to say it does not get paid well, but it does not spend as much time reading about farm systems, learning the newest offensive and defensive metrics, etc. It gets most of its knowledge from sports radio as well as the team's beat writers.

 

Unfortunately, the White Sox beat writers, and the characters on Chicago sports radio, have grown to cater to its fanbase. They do not seek to inform them on the newest information available, or the players in the Organization's farm system, as apparently they believe what attention they do get should be spent on the big league club and the statistics that most casual baseball fans generally understand. But as we all know, the game has changed.

 

Baseball is more a game of data and economics than ever before. Those economics have made farm systems more important than they have been in recent history. Until the average fan understands these concepts, he/she will not understand the direction the Organization is going in or the reasons for their decisions.

 

There is no reason why our beat writers and our sports radio commentators cannot step things up a notch and educate our fan base. There is no reason why our fanbase cannot gain a better understanding of what the Organization is attempting to accomplish on a year-to-year basis and thus gain a better perspective on whether to support them by going out to the games or not.

[dmbjeff]

we lost about 20,000 in attendence having a straight doubleheader with seattle back in april. we had a horribly cool april/may/june weather wise forcing smaller crowds. we had a horrible mediocre team until about 2 weeks ago. our attendence always goes up when the weather warms like it is now and aren't forced to pay premium prices for series they dont want to see. if last year we avg. 30,000 fans, that is over a whole season. wait til the summer continues and we continue to see larger crowds with the nice weather. also add in that this ball club is now looking like a contender, more and more people will go to games down the stretch if they are meaningful.

 

stop your crying KW. i love what you do, but you are out of line on this one.

[santo=dorf]

No? So you are going to argue that the 4k drop in attendance is entirely due to the economy and higher parking and concessions?

That, KW's (generally) mediocre team, and some questionable pricing strategies set by the marketing group. Don't blame the fans entirely for that.

[BigSqwert]

Doesn't trading for a marquee player boost attendance?

[Jordan4life_2007]

I'm not going to make a big ass deal out of what Kenny said. But we've had attendance issues for years. Not just recently because of the economy. That's a lame ass excuse. We have a fickle, front-running fanbase. That's the bottomline. All those crying economy when it comes to not going to as many games this year, let the Sox get to the World Series and I bet those same folks won't even remember what an economy is. They'll be doing whatever they can possibly do to get to the park in that case.

[Dick Allen]

This thread is ridiculous. Here is what Kenny said:

 

"We expected a little more fan support than we have gotten. It's a reflection of the economy. And I don't know if we've played consistent enough or been exciting enough for people to get behind us yet."

 

So first he states attendance is down because of the economy, which is a true statement. Then he points out that the team has had it's share of struggles and implies that less fans have showed up for that reason, which is also true. Where does he does he call Sox fans cheap? I don't see the insult.

 

Oh yeah and he said this:

 

"We had been a little aggressive in our projections initially, and we might have to take a lot closer look at it because the Dodgers series certainly was an eye-opener for us."

 

Now he admits they overestimated demand and/or priced tickets too highly. He admits the Dodgers series was an "eye-opener" for his staff, which it should have been. I'm not going to argue that raising ticket prices 11% and cutting payroll by $20 million makes a lot of sense. They obviously had their reasons for it, whether wrong or right. However, no one should fault Kenny or the White Sox for admitting they can't spend big dollars on a trade when revenues from attendance have been so low. The Sox are probably already several million in the red. It's unfair and borderline crazy to expect they to go even further in that direction without seeing some sort increase in fan support first.

 

The product until recently hasn't warranted more support. Its the catch 22 that seems to apply to the White Sox every year. The bottom line is the White Sox know and have known exactly how many tickets they have sold. They can also project pretty well what kind of walk-up to expect. How is it that they had plenty of money to assume the $63 million Jake Peavy was owed 2 months ago, but now have don't have the money to pick up anything but spare parts? Its either a smokescreen, some sort of gamesmanship or delusional.

 

[clyons]

The Angels are an outstanding franchise. No disputing that.

 

However, the level of knowledge the average Angel fan has about that franchise is far above and beyond that of the average Sox fan.

 

I'd like to see the survey data that forms the basis for this most interesting conclusion.

[lostfan]

So if the Cubs fans can pay to go to their bar, why can't the White Sox fans pay to go to their team's games?

This is a serious question? Of all things to try to defend, why this?

[lostfan]

Ok, so tell me, why do the White Sox not belong on that list of teams? Are the White Sox not from a major market like the NY teams, or the Red Sox? Are they not in fact in the same city as the Cubs are? I don't understand why the White Sox should not be amongst that group?

Again, you really have to ask why the Sox don't pull in the same revenue as the Yankees or the Red Sox? That really should be common knowledge.

[maki]

No? Have you read message boards before? Let's face it, the midwest, and the White Sox fanbase in particular, is a very "blue-collar" fanbase. It's a fanbase that, relative to others, does not spend as much of its time in front of a computer, due in large part to the occupations it holds. That is not necessarily to say it does not get paid well, but it does not spend as much time reading about farm systems, learning the newest offensive and defensive metrics, etc. It gets most of its knowledge from sports radio as well as the team's beat writers.

 

Unfortunately, the White Sox beat writers, and the characters on Chicago sports radio, have grown to cater to its fanbase. They do not seek to inform them on the newest information available, or the players in the Organization's farm system, as apparently they believe what attention they do get should be spent on the big league club and the statistics that most casual baseball fans generally understand. But as we all know, the game has changed.

 

Baseball is more a game of data and economics than ever before. Those economics have made farm systems more important than they have been in recent history. Until the average fan understands these concepts, he/she will not understand the direction the Organization is going in or the reasons for their decisions.

 

There is no reason why our beat writers and our sports radio commentators cannot step things up a notch and educate our fan base. There is no reason why our fanbase cannot gain a better understanding of what the Organization is attempting to accomplish on a year-to-year basis and thus gain a better perspective on whether to support them by going out to the games or not.

 

Sounds like a conspiracy theory at its finest. Outside of a few outliers, ie Florida teams, maybe san diego, you will find very small discernable differences in the general knowledge of the game amongst the fanbase. A single good talk show radio host who reaches an extremely limited audience, many of which are not actually listening at the time, is not changing a fanbase. This notion is fairly absurd.