White Sox GM Hampered by low Attendance

[iamshack]

The state of Illinois has one of the highest unemployment rates in the country. People are hurting. If they are only going to go to one or two games all season, why wouldn't they pick Boston or the Yankees, they are far more interesting than a Manny-less Dodger team? Or why not save a lot of money and see the Tigers or Twins in a divison match up that means a little more?

 

Whoever priced the game is trying to live off the 59 WS. They already celebrated that in 2005. If people were really that interested in the Dodgers they can go see them 8 miles north every season.

 

And they do go see them 8 miles north.

 

I understand the demographics of the two teams in Chicago, but from the way you describe things, Dick, it certainly doesn't seem to follow on the North side from what I can tell...

[SoxFan562004]

Attendance is down like 4,000 a game from 2008 right now, and if we continue to remain in the race, I'd bet by the end of the year the drop per game is even less than that. Fact is, there are a couple/few thousand people a night who aren't going to games this year because they can't afford it right now. That's a fact, not an excuse.

it wouldn't make up for the 4,000 a game, but didn't one of the Tigers game count as a zero attendance?

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

This is Chicago, not Kansas City, not Minnesota, not Detroit, not Baltimore, not Milwaukee. This is a major market with a relatively high standard of living being achieved. Prices are not going to be what they are in Cincinnati. Get over it.

 

Sox fans are probably some of the most finnicky, most prone to complaining and whining, and defensive people in all of sports.

 

The Dodgers series should have drawn better; it was a series against the best team in baseball right now, one of the mlb's historic franchises, a team from another major market, etc. I don't think there is any question that the team should have drawn better that series.

The Sox always do lots in walk-ups and purchases within the last few days before a game,and playing like s*** doesn't help that cause. The Dodgers have been to town before and will be again. The novelty of interleague play isn't going to last forever, and personally, the Dodgers don't do anything for me. I'd rather see a game vs. the Royals because there's at least a bit of a rivalry there and I know all the players.

[SoxFan562004]

And they do go see them 8 miles north.

 

I understand the demographics of the two teams in Chicago, but from the way you describe things, Dick, it certainly doesn't seem to follow on the North side from what I can tell...

well, at the risk of being labled an overreacting Sox fan or something along those lines, the Cubs flatout have a bigger fan base, especially in the business world. The White Sox are not on the same level as the Yankees (nobody is) the Red Sox, Cubs and another team or two.

[whitesoxfan101]

it wouldn't make up for the 4,000 a game, but didn't one of the Tigers game count as a zero attendance?

 

I do not know, but if that's the case, that does hurt certainly.

[Dick Allen]

I'm sorry, but I really just don't buy into this. I think people are going waaaayyy too far in crying about this economy. Sure, the economy is bad. Sure, people are losing their jobs. Sure, people lost money in the stock market. But honestly, how many of us here have had their lives changed in the past 18 months so significantly so that we can no longer afford to go to White Sox games? It's like a massive social excuse for everything bad that happens to people now...the economy, the economy, the economy.

 

While it's certain some people have had their lives significantly changed, whether it be through losing their jobs, losing some of their 401k, etc., this has not been such a great disaster that 95% of our fans cannot continue to support the team as they always have.

Also keep in mind until recently the Sox have been below .500 for most of the season. They were 33-36 coming into the Dodgers series. When you have a team that had Corky Miller batting 6th, Lillibridge and Wise leading off at times, it really doesn't inspire a very good walk-up especially considering they jacked up the prices for that series. As I stated earlier, its more expensive to go to a White Sox game than to go to any other team's games except for 4, and those 4 all have payrolls significantly higher than the White Sox. The Red Sox were the closest and there's is $26 million higher. Blaming the fans for not showing up when your team has played like the White Sox have played most of the season isn't going to go well.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Dick Allen

[iamshack]

I'm sorry, some of you may certainly have been affected significantly by the economic downturn, but you will not convince me that that is the reason for the drop in attendance.

 

It's not an actual change in earnings. It's an attitude. The fans are not happy with this team, they know fewer and fewer players from the WS team, their are probably lesser company season ticket packages that were purchased, etc. But there is still PLENTY of money in the City of Chicago and the suburbs to support this team at a higher clip. It's being proven year in and year out on the Northside.

 

This is just another instance of White Sox fans being less than educated about the team and it's players, and being whiny and stubborn.

 

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

And they do go see them 8 miles north.

 

I understand the demographics of the two teams in Chicago, but from the way you describe things, Dick, it certainly doesn't seem to follow on the North side from what I can tell...

How many of those tickets per game belong to corporate functions and the like though? The last time I was there I was waiting for someone to fall backwards on top of me hoping I catch him, or waiting for the camp counselor to come out and explain the safety rules of helping your coworker across a rope bridge. Plus it's a heavy tourist area as well.

[iamshack]

Also keep in mind until recently the Sox have been below .500 for most of the season. They were 33-36 coming into the Dodgers series. When you have a team that had Corky Miller batting 6th, Lillibridge and Wise leading off at times, it really doesn't inspire a very good walk-up especially considering they jacked up the prices for that series. As I stated earlier, its more expensive to go to a White Sox game than to go to any other team's games except for 4, and those 4 all have payrolls significantly higher than the White Sox. The Red Sox were the closest and there's is $26 million higher. Blaming the fans for not showing up when your team has played like the White Sox have played most of the season isn't going to go well.

 

It's not blaming as much as it's just being honest. Why is the truth so offensive to you?

 

And secondly, for as many high payroll teams the White Sox have put out there, and amongst the group of teams you mention, they certainly have the most volatile fan base to try and impress.

 

And to claim that the White Sox are not concerned about their fanbase, and don't go above and beyond to make the experience a pleasurable one for all types of fan, is just ludicrous.

[caulfield12]

Attendance is down like 4,000 a game from 2008 right now, and if we continue to remain in the race, I'd bet by the end of the year the drop per game is even less than that. Fact is, there are a couple/few thousand people a night who aren't going to games this year because they can't afford it right now. That's a fact, not an excuse.

 

 

Even if you cross out the Tigers' DH, it would put us around 26800 per game.

 

That would leave us at 18th, just a bit behind TEX/SEA/MINN.

 

Texas and Seattle have played better than us for most of the season, and this is the last year in the Dome for the Twins (priority for season tickets in the new season being connected to having 2009 season tickets factors in).

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/attendance

Edited July 8, 2009 by caulfield12

[whitesoxfan101]

I'm sorry, some of you may certainly have been affected significantly by the economic downturn, but you will not convince me that that is the reason for the drop in attendance.

 

It's not an actual change in earnings. It's an attitude. The fans are not happy with this team, they know fewer and fewer players from the WS team, their are probably lesser company season ticket packages that were purchased, etc. But there is still PLENTY of money in the City of Chicago and the suburbs to support this team at a higher clip. It's being proven year in and year out on the Northside.

 

This is just another instance of White Sox fans being less than educated about the team and it's players, and being whiny and stubborn.

 

The Cubs draw year in and year out because they play at a bar, and they are now even more popular since they have been a contender the last few years. The Sox aren't drawing less fans per game this year because of the business men in the lower deck not showing up, they are drawing less because the college kids and blue collar families and people like that who sit in the upper deck aren't coming out as much because they're broke and can't afford 23 dollar parking and more expensive tickets to watch a .500 team play ball.

[SoxFan562004]

I'm sorry, some of you may certainly have been affected significantly by the economic downturn, but you will not convince me that that is the reason for the drop in attendance.

 

It's not an actual change in earnings. It's an attitude. The fans are not happy with this team, they know fewer and fewer players from the WS team, their are probably lesser company season ticket packages that were purchased, etc. But there is still PLENTY of money in the City of Chicago and the suburbs to support this team at a higher clip. It's being proven year in and year out on the Northside.

 

This is just another instance of White Sox fans being less than educated about the team and it's players, and being whiny and stubborn.

Could you explain this? This team had Wise leading off and as the starting CF, Corky Miller as a backup catcher, a wing and a prayer 4 and 5th starter and haven't played very well at home all year. They've just started playing better with The Count working his stuff out in the minors, Gavin and Danks turning it around and Beckham coming up. There was very little to be excited about this team for a long time, and they were playing like it.

[iamshack]

Could you explain this? This team had Wise leading off and as the starting CF, Corky Miller as a backup catcher, a wing and a prayer 4 and 5th starter and haven't played very well at home all year. They've just started playing better with The Count working his stuff out in the minors, Gavin and Danks turning it around and Beckham coming up. There was very little to be excited about this team for a long time, and they were playing like it.

 

I'm talking about the general lack of knowledge the average White Sox fan has about the team. This is due, as I have argued in the past several times before, to the fact that Chicago beat writers, at least those that cover baseball, are absolutely brutal. They do not do their homework and it shows in their reporting. There are probably 25-50 posters on this website alone that are more knowledgeable about the White Sox organization than our beat writers are, and this isn't a well-paying job for those posters!

 

Our fanbase might be more apt to support the team if it actually understood the position the team was in, why it was doing what it was doing, why we had no leadoff hitter, why Corky Miller is the backup catcher, etc. There are reasonable answers for these questions, it's just that no one bother to give them to the fanbase. It's unfortunate.

[whitesoxfan101]

I'm talking about the general lack of knowledge the average White Sox fan has about the team. This is due, as I have argued in the past several times before, to the fact that Chicago beat writers, at least those that cover baseball, are absolutely brutal. They do not do their homework and it shows in their reporting. There are probably 25-50 posters on this website alone that are more knowledgeable about the White Sox organization than our beat writers are, and this isn't a well-paying job for those posters!

 

Our fanbase might be more apt to support the team if it actually understood the position the team was in, why it was doing what it was doing, why we had no leadoff hitter, why Corky Miller is the backup catcher, etc. There are reasonable answers for these questions, it's just that no one bother to give them to the fanbase. It's unfortunate.

 

Well this I actually do agree with 100 percent, but I don't think it's an explanation for the attendance drop.

[iamshack]

The Cubs draw year in and year out because they play at a bar, and they are now even more popular since they have been a contender the last few years. The Sox aren't drawing less fans per game this year because of the business men in the lower deck not showing up, they are drawing less because the college kids and blue collar families and people like that who sit in the upper deck aren't coming out as much because they're broke and can't afford 23 dollar parking and more expensive tickets to watch a .500 team play ball.

 

So if the Cubs fans can pay to go to their bar, why can't the White Sox fans pay to go to their team's games?

[iamshack]

Well this I actually do agree with 100 percent, but I don't think it's an explanation for the attendance drop.

 

No? So you are going to argue that the 4k drop in attendance is entirely due to the economy and higher parking and concessions?

[whitesoxfan101]

So if the Cubs fans can pay to go to their bar, why can't the White Sox fans pay to go to their team's games?

 

Because our fanbase is much smaller and less economically blessed than the one to the north, as we've all known for a long time now.

[greg775]

I don't think Kenny's comments were that mean or condescending.

But once again nobody mentions the Dodger series being premium priced.

I think being 4,000 down per game is about right considering the horses*** start this team had at home.

I mean the Sox totally sucked at home for a long time, just now sort of getting it together in the Cell.

All those shutouts and horrific offensive performances at home.

I've been amazed that baseball has survived with parking costs so high and ticket prices so high, but it has.

A drop of 4,000 is reasonable to me. This team was painful to watch when Lilly and those other automatic outs were in the lineup.

And when Jose sucked early when he was rushed back, and the elderly Colon were being trotted out there I'd find it tough to buy a ticket/parking.

[whitesoxfan101]

No? So you are going to argue that the 4k drop in attendance is entirely due to the economy and higher parking and concessions?

 

That's a large part of it, but a poor product on the field, lousy weather, and the team not hitting or playing well at all at home aren't helping either. I would LOVE to know why you think attendance is down.

[iamshack]

Because our fanbase is much smaller and less economically blessed than the one to the north, as we've all known for a long time now.

 

See, I agree it is smaller and less-affluent, but not as much as to reflect the difference in monetary support that exists. I truly think Sox fans are stubborn bastards.

[SoxFan562004]

I'm talking about the general lack of knowledge the average White Sox fan has about the team. This is due, as I have argued in the past several times before, to the fact that Chicago beat writers, at least those that cover baseball, are absolutely brutal. They do not do their homework and it shows in their reporting. There are probably 25-50 posters on this website alone that are more knowledgeable about the White Sox organization than our beat writers are, and this isn't a well-paying job for those posters!

 

Our fanbase might be more apt to support the team if it actually understood the position the team was in, why it was doing what it was doing, why we had no leadoff hitter, why Corky Miller is the backup catcher, etc. There are reasonable answers for these questions, it's just that no one bother to give them to the fanbase. It's unfortunate.

I do agree with you that the media has completely glossed over the fact that the Sox have completely done a 180 on their farm system and that they're playing out some of the larger contracts. I have posted many times before, especially when everyone was trying to say the Peavy deal was being done only for the short term.

 

However, the economy is crippling people and stepping away from the economy, this team had bad players on it and was playing like crap until the last 2-3 weeks, that had a big effect on attendance.

[whitesoxfan101]

See, I agree it is smaller and less-affluent, but not as much as to reflect the difference in monetary support that exists. I truly think Sox fans are stubborn bastards.

 

I agree with this too, but it still doesn't explain why 4,000 less people a night who were showing up last year aren't showing up this year.

[iamshack]

That's a large part of it, but a poor product on the field, lousy weather, and the team not hitting or playing well at all at home aren't helping either. I would LOVE to know why you think attendance is down.

 

I'm not disputing the poor performance and the bad weather. What my argument is is that Sox fans are using the economy for an excuse when it isn't the reason fans are going to less games. It's just one that seems more justifiable.

[whitesoxfan101]

I'm not disputing the poor performance and the bad weather. What my argument is is that Sox fans are using the economy for an excuse when it isn't the reason fans are going to less games. It's just one that seems more justifiable.

 

Well I can't speak for those people or even to the idea that they might exist because I'm actually going to go to more games this year than I did last year it appears even with the economy and the team not as good in 2009 as it was in 2008.

Edited July 8, 2009 by whitesoxfan101

[Dick Allen]

It's not blaming as much as it's just being honest. Why is the truth so offensive to you?

 

And secondly, for as many high payroll teams the White Sox have put out there, and amongst the group of teams you mention, they certainly have the most volatile fan base to try and impress.

 

And to claim that the White Sox are not concerned about their fanbase, and don't go above and beyond to make the experience a pleasurable one for all types of fan, is just ludicrous.

The truth is the fans haven't come because the product was crap. JR said the 2008 was boring. Its like a restaurant winning some prestigious award, but saying their food wasn't really so good. To fix it, they are going to use cheaper ingredients and raise the prices on the menu. That should fix things.

 

The White Sox raised ticket prices and lowered payroll. What other team did that? They had the season ticketholder playoff money held hostage. I think that is something that is very important. If they sell off and aren't in a position to collect non refundable playoff money from season ticketholders, the poster suggesting a huge drop in renewals, probably will be right if the Sox try raise prices again. Considering JR's edict is to not lose money, so you would have to assume they didn't lose any last year, wouldn't the White Sox actions suggest they were anticipating a drop?

 

Just remember, the only teams more expensive for a family to see are the Mets, Yankees, Red Sox and Cubs. Even the Red Sox had trouble selling out playoff games last year. Gammons wrote they had tickets available day of game, and they weren't give backs. The White Sox gave the Dodger series a very high pricing tier. They priced a lot of people out. The numbers speak for themselves. That's not on the fans, that's on whoever tried to get an extra 15-20 a seat.