White Sox GM Hampered by low Attendance

[greg775]

This flap with KW is funny considering just last week Oz said our fans were smarter than Cubs fans because our fans don't show up cause "they know we are horses***" or something like that.

Oz already pointed out why our fans won't go to the games.

[Leonard Zelig]

Wow, I can't believe this many people can get so angry about a comment taken out of context from a person they do not know personally.

[bighurt574]

Having been to seven games already this year, which is low by my standards, I'd personally like to tell KW to shove it. I average 20-30 games per year (40 in '05) and one thing I've noticed is that the park has grown less fan-friendly year after year, price-wise.

 

Of course we have the insulting tier system, where an April game against KC is $33 for bleachers but of course for the Cubs they're magically $40 for the same seat. Granted the Cubs series is always a sellout but then to make the LA series premium?!?!? In the middle of the week? No wonder you got 20,000 fans only.

 

And of course, beer prices up, parking up, everything up, up, up even when we knew going into the season that the economy was the worst in my lifetime. Half-price promotions few and far between... really, this is all a mystery to KW? Really?

 

Add to that the Sox didn't exactly get off to a rousing start (although looking much better now) and we have our mystery solved here.

 

If the Sox were more flexible as an organization they would realized going into the season that with the economy they could work on the fly and make the Sox a budget-saving alternative to the Cubs or other activities... drop the ticket prices, offer family packages, realize that a full park with discounted tix is better than a half-empty one at premium prices.

 

But none of that happened.

 

And yet you whine about "support" when you've offered none in these dismal economic times.

 

Sit down and STFU.

 

 

 

All true, but the Sox are hardly alone in any of these respects.

 

[WCSox]

Wow, I can't believe this many people can get so angry about a comment taken out of context from a person they do not know personally.

 

From reading this thread, one might think that Kenny was quoted as saying, "Our attendance numbers didn't meet our projections, because our fans are a bunch of whiny little b*tches."

 

[caulfield12]

I think you're seeing that half of this is really about the idea of insensitivity towards people are struggling economically (who isn't worried just a LITTLE bit?), not the specific words, but more the overall/general tone of the comments.

 

People aren't comfortable with discretionary spending on luxury items (like taking fans to baseball games) when they're more concerned about rising interest rates and fees on their credit cards, declaring bankruptcy or walking out on a home that's lost 30-40% of its value (yes, I know Chicago is a bit more insulated than FL, Vegas, AZ, CA, etc.) or trying to decide between a family vacation or NOT taking one this year...

 

No matter what, KW and JR come off a little bit like Mr. Potter from "It's a Wonderful Life."

 

Iamshack has presented his views diligently throughout this thread, and, yes, the White Sox fanbase is more skeptical/fickle and not trusting, but this was built up over a long history of having the rug pulled out from under them with this team...it's like "love," once you're hurt deeply as a fan (too), you distance yourself and don't get as emotionally involved for fear of being hurt again. But I would think that 50% of this distrust or suspicion of the front office would have been cleared up by 2005 and the spending that has taken place (albeit spending incorrectly in many ways, spending nonetheless) on our payroll since then and now seems to be in the process of levelling back off to previous Sox teams (not 20-30 in payroll but closer to 15-20 than 5-10 overall in spending).

 

 

[rangercal]

Too many sensitive people in here.

 

Facts are facts. We are towards the top half in payroll and bottom half in attendance.

[caulfield12]

Too many sensitive people in here.

 

Facts are facts. We are towards the top half in payroll and bottom half in attendance.

 

 

Do you honestly think that we are producing less revenue (including broadcast/media) with our higher ticket prices, premium pricing, parking, concessions and souvenirs than:

 

Minnesota

Seattle (could be close, SEA is a more expensive city than most)

Texas

Milwaukee

Colorado

Houston

Atlanta

Detroit (probably very close, we kill them with our national t.v. though, compared to their local media)

 

All those teams are ahead of us to varying degrees in attendance, but I would argue we're actually between 10-12 in actual revenues produced....which is a different animal and I would need a recent sports marketing survey of stadium prices to prove my point.

 

Yankees, Phillies, Dodgers, Angels, Cardinals, Cubs, Mets, Giants and Red Sox I won't argue are generating more revenues/income.

 

But we VERY EASILY could be #10 at revenue production even at #18 in attendance, and that's BARELY trailing TEX/SEA/MINN.

 

Is our payroll pretty much right around 8-12 in the majors?

 

This is a false argument by KW just to look at numbers (20000 for Dodgers) and not make the comment that this 20000 produced almost the same amount as 30000 at the 8 stadiums listed above, if you take into consideration all revenue streams.

 

 

 

 

[WCSox]

I think you're seeing that half of this is really about the idea of insensitivity towards people are struggling economically (who isn't worried just a LITTLE bit?), not the specific words, but more the overall/general tone of the comments.

 

Kenny stated that the reason that attendance has not met projections is the economy, not the spending decisions of Sox fans. Note that Kenny didn't mention that the Cubs fans who pack Wrigley for every home game live in that same economy.

 

Iamshack has presented his views diligently throughout this thread, and, yes, the White Sox fanbase is more skeptical/fickle and not trusting, but this was built up over a long history of having the rug pulled out from under them with this team...it's like "love," once you're hurt deeply as a fan (too), you distance yourself and don't get as emotionally involved for fear of being hurt again. But I would think that 50% of this distrust or suspicion of the front office would have been cleared up by 2005 and the spending that has taken place (albeit spending incorrectly in many ways, spending nonetheless) on our payroll since then and now seems to be in the process of levelling back off to previous Sox teams (not 20-30 in payroll but closer to 15-20 than 5-10 overall in spending).

 

Cubs fans have put up with inept front office people and even more inept teams. They haven't won a WS since 1908. Yet they still buy tickets.

 

I'm sick and tired of the whining. You don't want to buy tickets? Fine, nobody is judging you. But stop b*tching when your GM cites the economy and ticket sales as a factor for them being more hesitant around the trade deadline... AFTER THREE STRAIGHT YEARS of $96+ million payrolls yielded mediocre attendance. The Sox have been over-spending for the past 2 1/2 years, and now's the time for the other shoe to drop. It's economic reality. Deal with it.

 

[caulfield12]

Kenny stated that the reason that attendance has not met projections is the economy, not the spending decisions of Sox fans. Note that Kenny didn't mention that the Cubs fans who pack Wrigley for every home game live in that same economy.

 

 

 

Cubs fans have put up with inept front office people and even more inept teams. They haven't won a WS since 1908. Yet they still buy tickets.

 

I'm sick and tired of the whining. You don't want to buy tickets? Fine, nobody is judging you. But stop b*tching when your GM cites the economy and ticket sales as a factor for them being more hesitant around the trade deadline... AFTER THREE STRAIGHT YEARS of $96+ million payrolls yielded mediocre attendance. The Sox have been over-spending for the past 2 1/2 years, and now's the time for the other shoe to drop. It's economic reality. Deal with it.

 

WC Sox, imagine you're in charge of a public relations firm and your client is the Chicago White Sox.

 

How, in any, way, shape or form...can be making these types of comments be positive or constructive? Wouldn't it be much better to have said:

 

"Boy, we really learned our lesson in the marketing department from that Dodgers series. We learned that Sox fans would rather see the Cubs or other divisional opponents like the Tigers or Twins at regular prices than pay premium prices for a team, that, albeit the best record-wise in baseball, doesn't have very many identifiable players outside of Manny Ramirez to casual baseball fans. Along with the fact that we really hyped up this series once in 2005 (bringing back the 1959 players to reminisce), when he had the best team in baseball at the time, it was a mid-week series, some afternoon games AND the economy is taking a toll on some of our casual or walk-up fans, possibly because the team just hasn't played good baseball at home or even looked like a contending team until recently...that's my fault, I take full responsibility for the team we fielded Opening Day, but I promise that, as in years past, we will exhaust all avenues and apply all resources to competing for the ALCD crown and constructing the type of team that's capable of winning another World Series for our great White Sox fans that have been loyal for so many years."

 

Why can't he simply say that?

Edited July 9, 2009 by caulfield12

[WCSox]

WC Sox, imagine you're in charge of a public relations firm and your client is the Chicago White Sox.

 

How, in any, way, shape or form...can be making these types of comments be positive or constructive? Wouldn't it be much better to have said:

 

"Boy, we really learned our lesson in the marketing department from that Dodgers series. We learned that Sox fans would rather see the Cubs or other divisional opponents like the Tigers or Twins at regular prices than pay premium prices for a team, that, albeit the best record-wise in baseball, doesn't have very many identifiable players outside of Manny Ramirez to casual baseball fans. Along with the fact that we really hyped up this series once in 2005 (bringing back the 1959 players to reminisce), when he had the best team in baseball at the time, it was a mid-week series, some afternoon games AND the economy is taking a toll on some of our casual or walk-up fans, possibly because the team just hasn't played good baseball at home or even looked like a contending team until recently...that's my fault, I take full responsibility for the team we fielded Opening Day, but I promise that, as in years past, we will exhaust all avenues and apply all resources to competing for the ALCD crown and constructing the type of team that's capable of winning another World Series for our great White Sox fans that have been loyal for so many years."

 

Why can't he simply say that?

 

Because Kenny's the GM, not the head of PR. It's not just job to kiss the rear ends of illogical, overly-emotional fans.

 

Earlier in this thread, I clearly stated that I don't agree with the Sox's ticket pricing. But I understand the reasoning behind it. That ticket pricing is one consequence of the Sox spending $96+ million for years and not garnering the fan support to pay for it. And this goes way beyond the stupid Dodgers series. Ticket sales have been down this year AND have been right at the MLB average since 2007.

 

The reality is that the Sox can't continue to spend wildly on high-priced vets with average-to-mediocre ticket sales. Articulating this is not taking a shot at the fan base, it's just stating reality. Sheesh, you'd think that this was a message board from 1999. Let's not pretend that we're back in the Ron Schueler era, where the Sox were NEVER buyers at the trade deadline and spending on marquee players in general was a big no-no. The people who are getting their nuts in a twist over this are irrationally biting the hand that has gone out of its way to feed them generously over the past 3 1/2 years. Guess what, people? If the fans don't go through the turnstile, either the spending has to stop or the ticket/concessions prices go up. The revenue to support $96+ million in payroll for years on end has to come from somewhere.

Edited July 9, 2009 by WCSox

[Dick Allen]

How long b4 he starts crying the old, you can't spend a dollar when you only have 50 cents???

That's what the fans were saying during that Dodgers series.

[iamshack]

Because Kenny's the GM, not the head of PR. It's not just job to kiss the rear ends of illogical, overly-emotional fans.

 

Earlier in this thread, I clearly stated that I don't agree with the Sox's ticket pricing. But I understand the reasoning behind it. That ticket pricing is one consequence of the Sox spending $96+ million for years and not garnering the fan support to pay for it. And this goes way beyond the stupid Dodgers series. Ticket sales have been down this year AND have been right at the MLB average since 2007.

 

The reality is that the Sox can't continue to spend wildly on high-priced vets with average-to-mediocre ticket sales. Articulating this is not taking a shot at the fan base, it's just stating reality. Sheesh, you'd think that this was a message board from 1999. Let's not pretend that we're back in the Ron Schueler era, where the Sox were NEVER buyers at the trade deadline and spending on marquee players in general was a big no-no. The people who are getting their nuts in a twist over this are irrationally biting the hand that has gone out of its way to feed them generously over the past 3 1/2 years. Guess what, people? If the fans don't go through the turnstile, either the spending has to stop or the ticket/concessions prices go up. The revenue to support $96+ million in payroll for years on end has to come from somewhere.

 

A great series of posts, WC. Our fans have truly not appreciated the attitude of "win at all costs" that Kenny and JR have brought to the table the last several years. Certainly there have been some decisions that have not worked out, including the disaster that has been CF since 2006, but I find it particularly infuriating when this fanbase claims the organization is cheap or is hiding profits, or is blaming them for the lack of options this coming trade deadline. KW and JR have shown a willingness to explore all options, even those that are not based on revenue projections (Jake Peavy), in order to make this team a contender year in and year out.

 

For the fanbase to take insult to these comments is just another example of the defensive, angry and whiny attitude it has had over the course of the last 15 years. It's a real shame.

[Dick Allen]

Our fans have truly not appreciated the attitude of "win at all costs"

Considering what this thread is based on, to say the Sox have had the attitude you have described is wrong. Its never been win at all costs, in fact, I think White Sox fans have taken budgets into account more than any other fanbase I know the past several years when discussing trades and possible signings. On this board no one ever suggests the White Sox raise payroll $50 million. People have some crazy ideas but usually they make the money pretty even in trades and the like. I can tell you as a season ticketholder, the White Sox for the most part this season, have been a pretty boring team to watch. For the first time since John Kruk, I'm really not all that excited attending games this year until I made the trip to Milwaukee. The Sox have played in bad weather. They were playing brutally at home. The weather was crap. Its never been win at all costs, you know that.

[greg775]

For the fanbase to take insult to these comments is just another example of the defensive, angry and whiny attitude it has had over the course of the last 15 years. It's a real shame.

 

Back in the day, when it was about as expensive to go to a game as a movie, I got mad at the Sox poor attendance. Now I can understand why anybody would chose to not go to a game. A family of four with good seats? Wanting to enjoy the experience with food, cokes, beers, hats for the kids, etc? And parking? My god you could easily drop 300 bills or more. I don't know how fans can go to 15-20 games a year and afford it unless they do the nosebleed and buy no food.

Now the way the team has been playing lately? it's easier to stomach, not the piss poor efforts in bad weather earlier this year.

Edited July 9, 2009 by greg775

[Dick Allen]

Back in the day, when it was about as expensive to go to a game as a movie, I got mad at the Sox poor attendance. Now I can understand why anybody would chose to not go to a game. A family of four with good seats? Wanting to enjoy the experience with food, cokes, beers, hats for the kids, etc? And parking? My god you could easily drop 300 bills or more. I don't know how fans can go to 15-20 games a year and afford it unless they do the nosebleed and buy no food.

Where the Sox really lose are when companies cancel their tickets. First off they usually have 4 or more, then they give them to customers or employees. Some mom or dad gets them for their family and they are there for nothing so they are already ahead, that means tons of concessions and souveniers for all his little ones.

[mr_genius]

I really don't get the anger over his comments.

 

He didn't say the fans sucked, he didn't say the team was unappreciated, he said their numbers are off of what they expected. I don't understand why that is such a venomous statement.

 

yea i didn't think what he said was an insult . he was just saying that lower income is going to lower payroll.

[greg775]

Where the Sox really lose are when companies cancel their tickets. First off they usually have 4 or more, then they give them to customers or employees. Some mom or dad gets them for their family and they are there for nothing so they are already ahead, that means tons of concessions and souveniers for all his little ones.

 

I can see that. Great point. If you get the tickets for free, it's go for broke on all the food, beers, shirts, hats, etc., especially if you get a parking pass too.

[Balta1701]

I can see that. Great point. If you get the tickets for free, it's go for broke on all the food, beers, shirts, hats, etc., especially if you get a parking pass too.

My dad used to on occasion get stadium club passes at the same time as he got tickets via one of his friends. That was worth the money.

[StrangeSox]

I can see that. Great point. If you get the tickets for free, it's go for broke on all the food, beers, shirts, hats, etc., especially if you get a parking pass too.

 

Yep. I get decent work tickets (145 maybe?) every once in a while and I'll definitely spend a little more than I would if I was paying the $35-45 a seat.

[iamshack]

Considering what this thread is based on, to say the Sox have had the attitude you have described is wrong. Its never been win at all costs, in fact, I think White Sox fans have taken budgets into account more than any other fanbase I know the past several years when discussing trades and possible signings. On this board no one ever suggests the White Sox raise payroll $50 million. People have some crazy ideas but usually they make the money pretty even in trades and the like. I can tell you as a season ticketholder, the White Sox for the most part this season, have been a pretty boring team to watch. For the first time since John Kruk, I'm really not all that excited attending games this year until I made the trip to Milwaukee. The Sox have played in bad weather. They were playing brutally at home. The weather was crap. Its never been win at all costs, you know that.

Dick, I'm just not sure which Franchise you've been watching the last 10 years or so. This is a GM, who under his regime, the Organization has been as active in the trade market as any in the league. He has tried to bring in virtually every impact player made available on the trade market over the past decade. Sure, some deals were not able to be made, some deals were made but the player refused to come here, and some players he has brought in. Whether it be David Wells, Freddy Garcia, Jim Thome, Carlos Delgado, Miguel Cabrera, Jake Peavy, Ken Griffey Jr., Randy Johnson, Javier Vazquez, Jose Contreras, he has tried to put this team in position to win time and time and time again. The GM and the Owner have stretched the payroll to its limits year in and year out. What more do you want?

 

Outside of going into the red $50 million every year, I'm not sure what would make you happy...

[southsider2k5]

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/hayes/16588...-neil09.article

 

Sox GM Williams just being honest about attendance dip

Sox GM's comments about attendance angered some, but truth can be painful

Comments

 

July 9, 2009

BY NEIL HAYES [email protected]

 

Timing is everything in baseball, which is why the advice here is to never complain about finances unless it's during the worst economic crisis in a generation. That's why it's hard to muster up the outrage to rail against White Sox general manager Ken Williams saying low attendance may prevent him from pumping up the payroll.

 

Everybody is feeling the pinch. Why should Williams be immune?

» Click to enlarge image

Neil Hayes

 

 

 

Baseball's attendance drop

 

Twenty of 30 teams have seen their attendance drop this season.

 

-8.7%

 

'08: 28,566

 

'09: 26,089

 

Through 41 games

 

-1.2%

 

'08: 40,398

 

'09: 39,913

 

Through 40 games

THREE UP

 

FLA 20.5%

 

KC 19.8%

 

TB 13.6%

THREE DOWN

 

WAS 22.6%

 

DET 22.1%

 

NYM 19.5%

 

Let's not confuse the White Sox and their sweetheart stadium deal with GM or Chrysler. Don't expect to find Sox owner Jerry Reinsdorf on a street corner with a tin cup. (Hey, brother, can you spare a dime?) Reinsdorf, who also owns the Bulls, is even trying to buy the Phoenix Coyotes. Reinsdorf has a winter home in the Phoenix area. Evidently, he wants a sports franchise to oversee when he escapes Chicago's winters. He is a man for all seasons.

 

It was Reinsdorf who once made a habit of telling Sox fans he would increase the payroll if they started coming to the park. Annoyed fans made the opposite argument. Give us a product worth paying to see, and we'll open our wallets. This wasn't one of those regrettable spats. What spurred the latest mini-controversy was Williams answering a question about his ability to land an impact player before the July 31 trade deadline.

 

To some, it sounded as if he was crying poor. To these ears, it sounded honest.

 

''I don't give a damn what people are saying,'' Williams said when asked about the fallout from Tuesday's comments. ''I was asked a question, and I gave an honest answer, as people have grown to understand. I'm not going to b.s. anybody. When I tell you I think we can compete, it means I think we can compete. When I tell you I think we're in trouble, it means we're in trouble. When I tell you we have resources and are going down an aggressive road, I mean exactly that. What I mean now is that we have to take a step back and survey the landscape. It's no different than what you have to or anybody has to do in their own households to make ends meet.''

 

All Williams originally said was that money has become more of an issue when considering potential trades because attendance was down 2,477 fans per game heading into Wednesday night's game against the Indians. He went on to say the dropoff in attendance is partially the result of the team not being consistent or exciting enough, which is absolutely a factor in the Sox' gate receipts dropping more than the 1,653 league average.

 

The Sox have looked terrific and terrible. The difficult part has been trying to figure out where in the middle of those extremes reality resides.

 

''That observation is fair,'' captain Paul Konerko said. ''We've been kind of Jekyll and Hyde at times. We've had some winning streaks and some losing streaks where not only have we lost, but we've looked horrific. Early in the season, our offense wasn't going. That always looks the worst. It makes you look flat.''

 

The team's premium-ticket pricing plan has been blamed by some. Maybe that's why attendance at last month's series against the first-place Dodgers averaged just over 20,000 per game. That the lowly Indians were also considered a ''prime'' game and priced accordingly may help explain a similar crowd Tuesday.

 

Rain pounded down before the game. It was cold and gray, making it feel more like April than July to the 26,772 who showed up Wednesday. The weather has been another factor.

 

''This has probably been the worst weather since I've been a White Sox,'' said Konerko, who came to the South Side in 1999. ''It was pretty cold earlier. There have been a couple other seasons where there have been colder days, but this year it has stayed colder longer, and there's been a lot of rain. It's not good.''

 

If the Sox are looking for ways to save money to compensate for the attendance decline, they could ask fans to return foul balls to the concession stand in exchange for a piece of gum, just like they do in Little League. If there has been a plus side to Bartolo Colon's mysterious absence, it's that the cost of the team's postgame buffet has been greatly reduced, which may not be enough to afford Roy Halladay but might buy an extra insole for Carlos Quentin's aching foot.

 

How much the Cubs missed Aramis Ramirez has dominated baseball conversation in Chicago. Fans may be clamoring for Williams to make a big splash before the trade deadline. Williams wants to see what kind of impact Quentin makes when he recovers from plantar fasciitis.

 

''We're getting ready, right after the break, to add a guy who almost won an MVP last year,'' Williams said. ''That might be considered a big thing in some places. Would people feel better if I traded for a guy who almost won an MVP? Would that make it look better?''

 

Williams didn't say anything wrong. There's no reason for fans to apologize for the lower-than-projected attendance, either. The truth hurts, sometimes even more so during uncertain times.

[lostfan]

He slipped a Bartolo fat joke towards the end of that article.

[103 mph screwball]

Why not do a buy one get one free sale for upper deck. Especially in April. It would allow budget tickets for fans who want to see a lot of games or just can't afford to take a family otherwise. Heck, it might even increase revenues if the bargain tickets increase concession sales and parking fees. Don't do the 1/2 price nights again. There doesn't seem to be a problem filling the $50 seats. Do something to help fill the upper deck. There has to be a way to make the upper deck somehow special to make up for not being able to access the concourse. I don't see the point of unsold tickets.

[greg775]

They finally mentioned the premium pricing for the dodger series, but didn't ask KW to comment on it.

[Marky Mark]

He slipped a Bartolo fat joke towards the end of that article.

 

 

I initially was too lazy to read the article until I saw that you pointed out the incentive. It was well worth it.