Time to shop some relievers

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Supposedly the Marlins were willing to give up Hermida for Capps, and this writer thinks they should be willing to give up Cody Ross, Hermida, or Uggla for a respectable closer, which shows how much they need one. We don't need all these relievers, and since Dotel is a FA after the year and probably won't get arb from us which means we get zero draft picks, we should shop him to teams like the Marlins who really need an arm at the back of the pen.

 

Also, I like Poreda and Thornton as lefties in the pen, so I'd shop Richard too. And it's time to shop Linebrink since we're at it. Maybe we can find a contender to give us a prospect plus take over the rest of his contract out of desperation. I'm not talking about becoming a seller either, just talking about getting some value out of some guys while we can.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[maggsmaggs]

I would definitely trade Dotel for Hermida, I really don't even care about the dip that our pen would take, subtracting a quality arm even though he has struggled. Hermida is a stud plain and simple who for some reason hasn't put it all together. Still he has had some solid years and could be a 30 HR guy at the cell. I have always loved him, especially after he owned the Cubs last year. However, I don't think the Marlins would have traded Hermida straight up for Capps, nor do I think they would give him up for Dotel. I also would legitimately consider Jenks for Hermida because Hermida's upside is tremendous and we have a lot of quality arms, but ultimately would probably need another piece along with Hermida to give away Bobby.

Edited July 10, 2009 by maggsmaggs

[GoSox05]

Is Hermida a corner outfielder or does he play center?

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I'm a Hermida fan too and wanted him over the offseason, but in a Jenks deal I'd want a lot more. For Dotel I think the deal would be pretty fair from the Marlins side because Hermida is a guy who will be getting too expensive for them rather quickly. And the Marlins have made some shockingly weak moves, like giving up Olsen and Willingham for half of their value last year.

 

The problem is where Hermida would play if CQ comes back healthy. I guess Dye could DH when Thome sits with Hermida in RF, and then Pods could be kind of like the rotating OF. But unless Hermida could play CF in the Cell it would still be hard to get everyone AB's.

 

Cody Ross is having a great year and he had a nice year last year too. Don't know a whole lot about him though, but he's a CF. The point is, if the Marlins are prepared to give up a lot for an arm then we should look to exploit that fact with Dotel.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[caulfield12]

I don't see the Marlins giving up Hermida or Ross for Dotel.

 

We'd either have to subsidize the leftover $2-3 million on Dotel's deal or send another prospect or two along to sweeten the pot, like a John Shelby III and Omogrosso/Santeliz/Ely/Nunez/Harrell caliber of pitcher.

[maggsmaggs]

I'm a Hermida fan too and wanted him over the offseason, but in a Jenks deal I'd want a lot more. For Dotel I think the deal would be pretty fair from the Marlins side because Hermida is a guy who will be getting too expensive for them rather quickly. And the Marlins have made some shockingly weak moves, like giving up Olsen and Willingham for half of their value last year.

 

The problem is where Hermida would play if CQ comes back healthy. I guess Dye could DH when Thome sits with Hermida in RF, and then Pods could be kind of like the rotating OF. But unless Hermida could play CF in the Cell it would still be hard to get everyone AB's.

Cody Ross is having a great year and he had a nice year last year too. Don't know a whole lot about him though, but he's a CF. The point is, if the Marlins are prepared to give up a lot for an arm then we should look to exploit that fact with Dotel.

 

You worry about that later. Hermida can be Dye's replacement in 2010 in RF and you can see if Dye would sign as a DH. Your outfield would be set with Q/Pods/Hermida as Pods will probably get a one-year deal with the Sox to bridge the gap to Danks in 2011. The money saved from losing Dye or Thome can go to a FA like Figgins. Then your lineup looks like Pods/Figgins/Q/Dye/Konerko/Ramirez/AJ/Beckham/Hermida. That's a damn good lineup. Regardless of where you can play him right now, if you can buy low on a guy like Hermida, you do so.

[maggsmaggs]

I don't see the Marlins giving up Hermida or Ross for Dotel.

 

We'd either have to subsidize the leftover $2-3 million on Dotel's deal or send another prospect or two along to sweeten the pot, like a John Shelby III and Omogrosso/Santeliz/Ely/Nunez/Harrell caliber of pitcher.

I think the Sox would definitely be willing to do that. Maybe not the money so much, but definitely adding another prospect, especially if it of those caliber. They are solid minor league players who are fringe major leaguers, if they even get that far. Dotel + third-tier Prospect for Hermida would be one the best moves in this organization's history, IMO.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I don't see the Marlins giving up Hermida or Ross for Dotel.

 

We'd either have to subsidize the leftover $2-3 million on Dotel's deal or send another prospect or two along to sweeten the pot, like a John Shelby III and Omogrosso/Santeliz/Ely/Nunez/Harrell caliber of pitcher.

They were going to give up Hermida in a deal for Capps, and Capps pretty much sucks. I'd much rather trade Hermida for Clayton Richard than Matt Capps, and supposedly the Pirates were the ones to nix that deal. If the sweetener was Ely, then I'd do it no doubt. I like Harrell (though I may be one of few at this point) and Santeliz and Omogrosso both have some pretty nice arms. Nunez would work though. Shelby wouldn't be a problem for me either. And it depends on the deal BTW because I'd give up any of those guys in the right deal.

 

Ideally I'd want to hit their farm system though. Hermida I'd target if the Sox aren't thinking about signing a RF after the offseason if Dye is gone. Ross I'd target if the Sox want D2 on a plan for Opening Day 2011. If the Sox are thinking of picking up another RF while starting D2 in CF for 2010 then I'd look for arms out of their system.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

You worry about that later. Hermida can be Dye's replacement in 2010 in RF and you can see if Dye would sign as a DH. Your outfield would be set with Q/Pods/Hermida as Pods will probably get a one-year deal with the Sox to bridge the gap to Danks in 2011. The money saved from losing Dye or Thome can go to a FA like Figgins. Then your lineup looks like Pods/Figgins/Q/Dye/Konerko/Ramirez/AJ/Beckham/Hermida. That's a damn good lineup. Regardless of where you can play him right now, if you can buy low on a guy like Hermida, you do so.

I'm starting to think we exercise Dye's option and make him the DH. I'd put Hermida in RF with D2 in CF if that's the case. And yes, the more I think about it, the more I'd want Hermida. I've always liked him. His numbers are down though, but of course if they weren't then we wouldn't have a shot at him anyway. But if he was in a Capps deal then he's definitely available in a Dotel deal.

 

IMO:

Dotel + Richard for Hermida + prospects

[Marky Mark]

Lets try to a trade one of our relievers for a steady first baseman in the upper minor leagues.

[Chicago White Sox]

Supposedly the Marlins were willing to give up Hermida for Capps, and this writer thinks they should be willing to give up Cody Ross, Hermida, or Uggla for a respectable closer, which shows how much they need one. We don't need all these relievers, and since Dotel is a FA after the year and probably won't get arb from us which means we get zero draft picks, we should shop him to teams like the Marlins who really need an arm at the back of the pen.

 

Also, I like Poreda and Thornton as lefties in the pen, so I'd shop Richard too. And it's time to shop Linebrink since we're at it. Maybe we can find a contender to give us a prospect plus take over the rest of his contract out of desperation. I'm not talking about becoming a seller either, just talking about getting some value out of some guys while we can.

 

I think we do need all these relievers. We now have four solid options from the right side not including Jenks. Carrasco is our long reliever and his durability is extremely valuable with Richard (and possibly Poreda soon) in the rotation. We shoud NOT move him from that role with the success he's been having (I know he's sucked of late but whatever). Plus he can serve as our sixth starters in double-headers if need be.

 

Therefore, we're talking about three right-handed guys that can be setup men. Since there is no guarantee that Linebrink will remain healthy and/or effective the whole season, I think it's extremely important to keep both Pena and Dotel. Additionally, I don't trust any of minor leaguers to come up right now and immedietely produce. As for shopping Richard, I think that would be a huge mistake. What are you even going to get for him at this point? If you move Poreda into the rotation, you'll eventually need Richard to replace him in the bullpen. Unless we are moving him as a piece in a larger trade, then I think you're best off holding on to him for now.

 

Hermida is an interesting name, but you got to start wondering if he will ever put it together. If the Sox weren't competing right now, I'd take a flier on him in a heartbeat and shut down Quentin for the rest of the season. Right now, I'd pass on trading for him unless you can get him cheaply using minor league talent.

 

 

 

 

[ChiSox_Sonix]

If we're dealing Jenks for Hermida i'd like to add Sinkbeil, Jai Miller and maybe someone else like a Van den Hurk to the package

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I wouldn't move Poreda.

 

Poreda + Thornton from the left side

Jenks as the closer

Hopefully get good value out of Richard, Dotel, Linebrink

Pena from the right side

Call up a reliever

Trade for a lesser veteran arm who doesn't cost much but can pitch in the 7th inning (Danys Baez maybe?)

Carrasco stays in LR

 

Yes our pen would be weaker than it is right now, but we're not getting anything for Dotel unless we offer arb, which we won't do because he'll accept. And now might be the best time to try and clear out Linebrink's contract. And Richard we don't have to deal, but I take offers because I'm happy with Thornton + Poreda as the lefties. They are our best options.

 

Edit: Also I'd play with the 5th spot if I had to, but I wouldn't put Poreda in there. I think Poreda is on the verge of being another 7th-8th inning lefty for us, and I really really like that. As for prospects not coming up and performing, I'd take that chance. I'd test out Link or DRod as a 6th inning righty, then look to bring in a 7th inning righty via trade. Pena goes to the 8th. I'd view it as dumping Linebrink + getting value out of Dotel as opposed to getting nothing out of Dotel at the end of the year.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[Chicago White Sox]

If we're dealing Jenks for Hermida i'd like to add Sinkbeil, Jai Miller and maybe someone else like a Van den Hurk to the package

 

Where is this Jenks talk coming from? KW is not going to deal him this season unless we are like 6 games out at the deadline. I can see him moving him in the off-season, but definitely not now. The fan base would see it as conceding the season, which is exactly what it would be. I don't even want to imagine what attendance would be like in August and September if KW gave up when we have a great shot at the division.

[caulfield12]

I wouldn't move Poreda.

 

Poreda + Thornton from the left side

Jenks as the closer

Hopefully get good value out of Richard, Dotel, Linebrink

Pena from the right side

Call up a reliever

Trade for a lesser veteran arm who doesn't cost much but can pitch in the 7th inning (Danys Baez maybe?)

Carrasco stays in LR

 

Yes our pen would be weaker than it is right now, but we're not getting anything for Dotel unless we offer arb, which we won't do because he'll accept. And now might be the best time to try and clear out Linebrink's contract. And Richard we don't have to deal, but I take offers because I'm happy with Thornton + Poreda as the lefties. They are our best options.

 

 

Danys Baez is making almost $7.2 million this year, more expensive than Dotel even.

 

He also played for Pinar del Rio, Alexei's team.

 

I am sure they would give him to us for free if we agree to pay the remaining money on his contract...the odds of clearing out Linebrink's contract in this economy are about 5-10% at best unless we leverage him with a premium player like Jenks/Alexei/Quentin/Danks/Floyd/Beckham, which simply isn't going to ever happen with KW and JR at the helm of this ship.

 

 

[Chicago White Sox]

I wouldn't move Poreda.

 

Poreda + Thornton from the left side

Jenks as the closer

Hopefully get good value out of Richard, Dotel, Linebrink

Pena from the right side

Call up a reliever

Trade for a lesser veteran arm who doesn't cost much but can pitch in the 7th inning (Danys Baez maybe?)

Carrasco stays in LR

 

Yes our pen would be weaker than it is right now, but we're not getting anything for Dotel unless we offer arb, which we won't do because he'll accept. And now might be the best time to try and clear out Linebrink's contract. And Richard we don't have to deal, but I take offers because I'm happy with Thornton + Poreda as the lefties. They are our best options.

 

No offense, but this is completely absurd. You expect KW to move his two most experienced relievers in the middle of the playoff chase? And to make it even more unlikely, Linebrink has a NTC. I honestly don't see him wanting to leave. Plus you want him to trade Richard and acquire another reliever? When is the last time a GM has broken up a great bullpen by making 6 roster moves in July?? Not going to happen.

 

Who are you going to bring up from the minors? I know Carlos Torres has great stats, but I've never heard one report on him having above average or major league stuff. I don't see any other option that even looks remotely interesting.

 

Why change something that is working? If we do make the playoffs, having a deep and strong bullpen could be a huge difference maker.

[ThunderBolt]

I want Cody Ross, but i'm hearing contrasting reports on just what his value is in the Marlins' eyes.

[elrockinMT]

Lets try to a trade one of our relievers for a steady first baseman in the upper minor leagues.

\

You mean not the other way around

[elrockinMT]

No offense, but this is completely absurd. You expect KW to move his two most experienced relievers in the middle of the playoff chase? And to make it even more unlikely, Linebrink has a NTC. I honestly don't see him wanting to leave. Plus you want him to trade Richard and acquire another reliever? When is the last time a GM has broken up a great bullpen by making 6 roster moves in July?? Not going to happen.

 

Who are you going to bring up from the minors? I know Carlos Torres has great stats, but I've never heard one report on him having above average or major league stuff. I don't see any other option that even looks remotely interesting.

 

Why change something that is working? If we do make the playoffs, having a deep and strong bullpen could be a huge difference maker.

 

 

Apparently we are not in the division race

[lostfan]

I could see trading one, MAYBE two of these relievers depending on the return since it's in a position of strength, but not dumping the whole bullpen. That just doesn't make any sense, the point in acquiring major league talent is to use it, not to trade it. Sure, Kenny is aggressive, but that's not his MO, he doesn't make trades to maximize value, he makes trades to acquire needs. If he can fill one of those needs by dumping a couple RP's so be it, but he's not going to trade them all.

Edited July 10, 2009 by lostfan

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

No offense, but this is completely absurd. You expect KW to move his two most experienced relievers in the middle of the playoff chase? And to make it even more unlikely, Linebrink has a NTC. I honestly don't see him wanting to leave. Plus you want him to trade Richard and acquire another reliever? When is the last time a GM has broken up a great bullpen by making 6 roster moves in July?? Not going to happen.

 

Who are you going to bring up from the minors? I know Carlos Torres has great stats, but I've never heard one report on him having above average or major league stuff. I don't see any other option that even looks remotely interesting.

 

Why change something that is working? If we do make the playoffs, having a deep and strong bullpen could be a huge difference maker.

Linebrink probably wouldn't go anywhere anyway. Who would take that contract? If someone would, I'd move him. I wouldn't care how absurd you or anyone else thought that move was. The fact is, in this economy, we can get a lot more out of $4-5M than Linebrink. Linebrink was market value when we signed him, but now it's a bad contract. I'm speaking as if we could deal him, which I'd try to do.

 

Yes, I'd look at dealing Richard because I see him as a lefty reliever, and with Thornton and Poreda, we don't need 3 of them.

 

Dotel gets us nothing beyond this year as it is. If the choice is Dotel for the rest of this year or no Dotel for the rest of this year and pieces for 2010 and beyond, then I choose to trade Dotel. The same reason I trade Dotel now is the same reason I don't trade for a short-term upgrade over Chris Getz right now.

 

6 roster moves? I'm talking about trading one player, trying to trade another, and then taking offers on a 3rd. Kenny brought in Pena for the future, and now our pen is packed with guys who will struggle to get work if the starters are going deep into games. If Richard loses his rotation spot and goes to the pen it becomes even more packed with guys who need work. And Poreda should stay where he is and up his workload, not go to the rotation.

 

If we were able to unload Linebrink, then since we can take on salary, ideally I'd look for a veteran in the last year of his contract available in mostly a salary dump where we would give up negligible talent. I don't care if we'd get negligible talent from Linebrink as long as his contract was gone. Dotel would get us something nice, as would Richard, so I'm actually talking about adding value to the organization going forward even if it means weakening the pen as it stands.

 

You talk about Carlos Torres' stuff being underwhelming, and by all accounts it is. And Poreda has a developing slider and a fastball, and that's not enough either. Richard has not been the answer. So, I don't know why trading Richard would make us so much worse off than we are now. I wouldn't trade him just to trade him, but I'd see what we could get for him. As for the 5th starter spot, maybe Colon or Freddy step up. Until then, and if we can't cheaply acquire a 5th starter, then I try Torres. If he doesn't work I try someone else. When we can, I'd skip the 5th spot.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I could see trading one, MAYBE two of these relievers depending on the return since it's in a position of strength, but not dumping the whole bullpen. That just doesn't make any sense, the point in acquiring major league talent is to use it, not to trade it. Sure, Kenny is aggressive, but that's not his MO, he doesn't make trades to maximize value, he makes trades to acquire needs. If he can fill one of those needs by dumping a couple RP's so be it, but he's not going to trade them all.

Agree with you on Kenny. I don't expect him to deal anyone but I would like him to get something for Dotel. Dumping Linebrink is a longshot, but I'd definitely be in favor of it if we could.

[lostfan]

Agree with you on Kenny. I don't expect him to deal anyone but I would like him to get something for Dotel. Dumping Linebrink is a longshot, but I'd definitely be in favor of it if we could.

Trading Dotel makes perfect sense. I wouldn't expect a huge return but surely you'd get something.

[Chicago White Sox]

Linebrink probably wouldn't go anywhere anyway. Who would take that contract? If someone would, I'd move him. I wouldn't care how absurd you or anyone else thought that move was. The fact is, in this economy, we can get a lot more out of $4-5M than Linebrink. Linebrink was market value when we signed him, but now it's a bad contract. I'm speaking as if we could deal him, which I'd try to do.

 

Yes, I'd look at dealing Richard because I see him as a lefty reliever, and with Thornton and Poreda, we don't need 3 of them.

 

Dotel gets us nothing beyond this year as it is. If the choice is Dotel for the rest of this year or no Dotel for the rest of this year and pieces for 2010 and beyond, then I choose to trade Dotel. The same reason I trade Dotel now is the same reason I don't trade for a short-term upgrade over Chris Getz right now.

 

6 roster moves? I'm talking about trading one player, trying to trade another, and then taking offers on a 3rd. Kenny brought in Pena for the future, and now our pen is packed with guys who will struggle to get work if the starters are going deep into games. If Richard loses his rotation spot and goes to the pen it becomes even more packed with guys who need work. And Poreda should stay where he is and up his workload, not go to the rotation.

 

If we were able to unload Linebrink, then since we can take on salary, ideally I'd look for a veteran in the last year of his contract available in mostly a salary dump where we would give up negligible talent. I don't care if we'd get negligible talent from Linebrink as long as his contract was gone. Dotel would get us something nice, as would Richard, so I'm actually talking about adding value to the organization going forward even if it means weakening the pen as it stands.

 

You talk about Carlos Torres' stuff being underwhelming, and by all accounts it is. And Poreda has a developing slider and a fastball, and that's not enough either. Richard has not been the answer. So, I don't know why trading Richard would make us so much worse off than we are now. I wouldn't trade him just to trade him, but I'd see what we could get for him. As for the 5th starter spot, maybe Colon or Freddy step up. Until then, and if we can't cheaply acquire a 5th starter, then I try Torres. If he doesn't work I try someone else. When we can, I'd skip the 5th spot.

 

Like I said, I wasn’t trying to offend you. I just don’t think your idea is possible if we plan on contending. Here is my feedback.

 

Now that we have Pena, I might let someone take Linebrink off our hand before the trading deadline. I would need to be certain that Pena can be an effective setup man in the AL this year. However, I doubt we find a buyer and if we do, he has to agree to go to that team. I don’t see it happening.

 

I don’t like dealing Richard because I think he at worst has great value out of the bullpen later this season and hopefully as a starter by next. If we do make the playoffs, I’d love to have Thornton, Poreda and Richard coming from the left-side. They could cause a lot of problems for other teams late in games.

 

You’re probably right that Dotel will get us nothing after this season. If we really want to compete this year, I still can’t see letting him go. He’s one of our best pure strikeout pitchers and there will certain situations that will call for him specifically. I also think KW will try to extend him to a minor discount in the off-season. If he doesn’t come to terms, he’ll let him walk for nothing.

 

Here’s what I meant by six roster moves. We’ve already traded for Pena (1). You proposed trading Linebrink (2) and Dotel (3). By trading Richard (4a), I assumed you would be moving Poreda (4b) to the rotation. You want to trade for a cheaper, replacement reliever (5) as well as call up someone from our minor leagues (6). That’s an insane amount of activity, even if you keep Poreda in the pen. IMO, it seems extremely stupid when dealing with one of the best bullpens in baseball. I don’t disagree that we have a ton of guys that will need to get work. It’s now on Ozzie to use frequently and effectively.

 

As for replacing Richard in the 5th sparter spot, I don’t think I ever want to see Colon pitch on this team again. I was at the game when he gave up like 5 or 6 home runs and I wanted to vomit just watching him. I haven’t heard any reports on Garcia so I won’t comment on him. I’m not saying Torres can’t make in the MLB either, I just have no reason to expect him to at this time. I wouldn’t be completely against giving him a chance, but I strongly feel Poreda deserves a shot first. I also agree that skipping the 5th starter spot as often as possible makes a lot of sense.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Chicago White Sox

[chw42]

Sure, give 'em Dotel for Hermida. It would solve our corner OF problems next year. Get it done KW.