Time to shop some relievers

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Like I said, I wasn’t trying to offend you. I just don’t think your idea is possible if we plan on contending. Here is my feedback.

 

Now that we have Pena, I might let someone take Linebrink off our hand before the trading deadline. I would need to be certain that Pena can be an effective setup man in the AL this year. However, I doubt we find a buyer and if we do, he has to agree to go to that team. I don’t see it happening.

 

I don’t like dealing Richard because I think he at worst has great value out of the bullpen later this season and hopefully as a starter by next. If we do make the playoffs, I’d love to have Thornton, Poreda and Richard coming from the left-side. They could cause a lot of problems for other teams late in games.

 

You’re probably right that Dotel will get us nothing after this season. If we really want to compete this year, I still can’t see letting him go. He’s one of our best pure strikeout pitchers and there will certain situations that will call for him specifically. I also think KW will try to extend him to a minor discount in the off-season. If he doesn’t come to terms, he’ll let him walk for nothing.

 

Here’s what I meant by six roster moves. We’ve already traded for Pena (1). You proposed trading Linebrink (2) and Dotel (3). By trading Richard (4a), I assumed you would be moving Poreda (4b) to the rotation. You want to trade for a cheaper, replacement reliever (5) as well as call up someone from our minor leagues (6). That’s an insane amount of activity, even if you keep Poreda in the pen. IMO, it seems extremely stupid when dealing with one of the best bullpens in baseball. I don’t disagree that we have a ton of guys that will need to get work. It’s now on Ozzie to use frequently and effectively.

 

As for replacing Richard in the 5th sparter spot, I don’t think I ever want to see Colon pitch on this team again. I was at the game when he gave up like 5 or 6 home runs and I wanted to vomit just watching him. I haven’t heard any reports on Garcia so I won’t comment on him. I’m not saying Torres can’t make in the MLB either, I just have no reason to expect him to at this time. I wouldn’t be completely against giving him a chance, but I strongly feel Poreda deserves a shot first. I also agree that skipping the 5th starter spot as often as possible makes a lot of sense.

I don't see anyone taking on Linebrink either, but I'd try for that. He'd still be a 7th-8th inning righty for us. If Pena has taught D'Backs fans anything it is that we can't be sure of anything when it comes to him. Kenny got him though, so Ozzie will use him. Hopefully he's good for us this year.

 

I don't ever see Richard as more than a #5 in the AL. In general it seems pitchers that throw from his angle don't fare very well as starters. There are a few who have done exceptionally well, but opening up to righties - especially the third time through - is not something I like out of a lefty. It also seems like lots of those guys totally lose it when they get just a bit tired. Their release point is way off and they end up completely losing the zone. Clayton has done that a few times and I don't know how that's going to change. He's already a big, strong athlete who shouldn't get any bigger. Even if he becomes more of a contact pitcher and lasts deeper, I still don't like him vs. righties late in a game, especially when his fastball is in the 90-91 range 3rd time through. I see him as a very nice lefty in the pen and always have, but I like Thornton and Poreda a lot more, and I don't think we need 3 lefties.

 

If we trade Dotel we might even have an outside shot at signing him again over the season. I'm a big fan of Dotel and believe he's one of our biggest weapons, but I'd sacrifice that for the future.

 

I don't think it matters how many moves you make. We've made a ton of roster moves already. Pods, Owens, Wise, Castro, Corky, Lillibridge, Pena, MacDougal, Egbert, Whisler, Gobble, Poreda, Beckham, Betemit, Broadway, Colon, Contreras, etc. Lots of guys have come up, or have been sent down, or involved in trades, or just dumped. That's just what happens during a season. The amount of moves made in a year has no bearing on anything.

 

You think it's stupid, fine. I think dumping Linebrink would be awesome if we could do it without taking on another bad contract. I also think getting value for Dotel would be awesome. And I don't in any way see Richard as more valuable in the pen than Thornton or Poreda, so I'd trade him in a deal that brought us something that would help us a lot more than a 3rd lefty in the pen.

 

We have no 5th starter options. Were you around this board before the season when the Marquez and CR/AP joke was going on? That was because none are all that great as starters. What makes you think Poreda has enough to get out Major League hitters on a regular basis? From watching him I think he can be a dominant lefty set-up man right now, but I also think he's going to get crushed if he goes out there and works 5+ innings every fifth day. The odds are SOOO much better for him to be a successful reliever. Have you seen those hanging sliders he has been using? He can get away with that now as that pitch continues to develop if he's in the pen, but put him out there as a starter and those things are going to go very far. The last thing we need to do is put Aaron Poreda in the one position where he is least likely to succeed. Why would we ever want to do that? If he loses his confidence as a starter we can't just expect him to find it again out of the pen. That would be a horrible, horrible move. At least with Torres, if he gets lit up we don't risk setting back a guy who is a big part of our future.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[BearSox]

I'd f***ing love a trade involving Dotel and maybe a prospect or two for Hermida.

 

Hermida's got a ton of potential still, and he's still only 25. Right now he is an average player, someone who will hit .250, .350 OBP, ~.400 SLG, 15-20 HR, 60+ RBI, a couple of steals, and mediocre D. But that only scratches the surface of his potential. However, I have read he does have a bit of Nick Swisheritis in him where he will look for the BB instead of looking to hit the ball. But because of that .270/.370/.450+ potential he has, especially in the cell, it'd be worth the risk.

 

This year he could provide us with a solid left handed bat who can play LF or RF and perhaps maybe we could even try him out as the backup 1B. He would fight for playing time, but as previously stated, his value would come next year as he would be the RF with hopefully Dye at DH.

 

Hell, I would also probably try and get Alex Rios from Toronto as well if we could get them to pick up close to half of Rios' remaining contract.

[caulfield12]

$6 million dollar 7th inning set-up men who walk Nick Punto to start off an inning...

 

They're not going to get us back much of anything in trade, maybe an NL team will get really desperate to push him back into an 8th inning role at times like we had to with Linebrink out for 2+ months last season.

 

As far as starting Poreda, agree 100% with KHP here. Now starting the likes of Torres, JVB, Omogrosso, Ely, Cassel or Harrell lowers our chances of winning out of the box to about 25-30%, but our offense has been scoring some runs as of late.

 

We would do better to preserve the value of Poreda. Clayton would no longer be the centerpiece of the Peavy trade if it were to be made again today...he might be the 3rd/4th/5th piece after Aaron.

 

Personally, I would go with a hunch and pick Omogrosso. Many others here are advocating for Torres and some for Colon.

 

Colon seems by far the most likely going off what we know about Ozzie, Coooper and KW.

 

Forgot Egbert and Whisler, I guess they're in the David Cook/Charlie Haeger tier of Sox prospects at this point, along with Mr. Torres.

Edited July 11, 2009 by caulfield12

[greg775]

I would be stunned if anybody would even want Dotel/Linebrink.

Both overpaid and you can find somebody to fill that role much cheaper.

Why would anybody trade for those guys?? I'd be in favor of trading Dotel. He's the definition of mediocrity. But who would want him? Maybe the Spankees who would consider his contract chump change? Or the Mets?

[fathom]

$6 million dollar 7th inning set-up men who walk Nick Punto to start off an inning...

 

They're not going to get us back much of anything in trade, maybe an NL team will get really desperate to push him back into an 8th inning role at times like we had to with Linebrink out for 2+ months last season.

 

As far as starting Poreda, agree 100% with KHP here. Now starting the likes of Torres, JVB, Omogrosso, Ely, Cassel or Harrell lowers our chances of winning out of the box to about 25-30%, but our offense has been scoring some runs as of late.

 

We would do better to preserve the value of Poreda. Clayton would no longer be the centerpiece of the Peavy trade if it were to be made again today...he might be the 3rd/4th/5th piece after Aaron.

 

Personally, I would go with a hunch and pick Omogrosso. Many others here are advocating for Torres and some for Colon.

 

Colon seems by far the most likely going off what we know about Ozzie, Coooper and KW.

 

Forgot Egbert and Whisler, I guess they're in the David Cook/Charlie Haeger tier of Sox prospects at this point, along with Mr. Torres.

 

Omogrosso? He of the 15.88 ERA in AAA?

[GreenSox]

I thought we should have traded Thornton a month ago, when he was pitching like the best lefty reliever in the league.

 

But didn't we just trade for a reliever - and at a pretty decent price?

[ThunderBolt]

I thought we should have traded Thornton a month ago, when he was pitching like the best lefty reliever in the league.

 

But didn't we just trade for a reliever - and at a pretty decent price?

Wait, so Thornton gives up a base hit and he's done?

Edited July 11, 2009 by Thunderbolt

[beautox]

I don't see the Marlins giving up Hermida or Ross for Dotel.

 

We'd either have to subsidize the leftover $2-3 million on Dotel's deal or send another prospect or two along to sweeten the pot, like a John Shelby III and Omogrosso/Santeliz/Ely/Nunez/Harrell caliber of pitcher.

 

I would do Dotel + Shelby + Omogrosso for Hermida, he needs a change of scenery.

 

an outfield of Hermida, Danks, Quentin would be sick!

 

i think coming to the cell he could get back to his .870OPS ways

 

[Baines3]

The way Thornton is pitching we'd be crazy to trade him.

[BearSox]

I thought we should have traded Thornton a month ago, when he was pitching like the best lefty reliever in the league.

 

But didn't we just trade for a reliever - and at a pretty decent price?

 

you can't be serious. First off, Dotel walked Nick freaking Punto to start off the inning, and Thornton got the first two outs before he had to face probably the best or second best left handed hitter in baseball. Also, whoever's bright idea it was to actually pitch to Mauer with a 2-0 count is an idiot. As soon as you fall behind 2-0 to Mauer, you throw him nothing he can hit and basically intentionally unintentionally walk him. Ozzie or Cora should have gave the sign or Pierzynski shoulda ran out there to tell him "Hey, he's in a great hitters count. Lets pitch around him and go after Morneau now."

 

However, I'll allow you to blame Thornton for that, because pitchers don't think for themselves anymore.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I would be stunned if anybody would even want Dotel/Linebrink.

Both overpaid and you can find somebody to fill that role much cheaper.

Why would anybody trade for those guys?? I'd be in favor of trading Dotel. He's the definition of mediocrity. But who would want him? Maybe the Spankees who would consider his contract chump change? Or the Mets?

LOL at nobody wanting Dotel and him being the "definition of mediocrity." Clearly you don't pay much attention to relievers in baseball. Check out his peripherals, then check out what other teams have in their bullpens, and then get back to the thread. BTW his salary would would be pro-rated obviously.

[greg775]

If Dotel is as valuable as you say, and teams will really want him and his salary, then by all means trade him now.

 

[103 mph screwball]

LOL at nobody wanting Dotel and him being the "definition of mediocrity." Clearly you don't pay much attention to relievers in baseball. Check out his peripherals, then check out what other teams have in their bullpens, and then get back to the thread. BTW his salary would would be pro-rated obviously.

Moving Dotel would make it much easier to afford Halladay and Rolen. Dotel is still a strike out machine and I'm sure the Sox could move him and get something useful in return.

[greg775]

Anybody notice Dotel has sucked on the road lately?

Last night he got the loss.

At KC, at Cleveland, and two games at Cincy, all outings he gave up runs, multi hits in all but one of the games. His overall road numbers aren't good with 11 walks and 17 hits in 16 innings with 17 strikouts and an 0-3 record. Must be nice when you can make 6 mill a year and be a set up man. If he was doing that as a closer, he'd be crucified in the media and by fans. Now he's still considered good.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Anybody notice Dotel has sucked on the road lately?

Last night he got the loss.

At KC, at Cleveland, and two games at Cincy, all outings he gave up runs, multi hits in all but one of the games. His overall road numbers aren't good with 11 walks and 17 hits in 16 innings with 17 strikouts and an 0-3 record. Must be nice when you can make 6 mill a year and be a set up man. If he was doing that as a closer, he'd be crucified in the media and by fans. Now he's still considered good.

GMAFB. Dotel is considered good because he is good. Players go through rough stretches all the time, and I'd like you to name anyone else better than Dotel who we could acquire without giving up the farm. In fact, if you go through the rosters, you're going to find it is VERY difficult just to find set-up men who have been above-average for even 3 straight seasons, much less find set-up men who have compiled careers like Dotel. Most of the relievers who are better than Dotel have been closers, and there have been a lot of closers in Dotel's time that have been a hell of a lot worse.

 

Also, consider that Pena's numbers have been down and he's basically been a righty specialist, yet he still cost the Sox Allen. Consider how long David Aardsma has been given opportunities. Mike f***ing MacDougal was given a closer's job in Washington. Matt Capps, who totally blows, was supposedly the centerpiece in a deal for Hermida. How long did Borowski close? What about the Tigers using Jones? Relievers in baseball are rarely better pitchers than Dotel, and even the halfway decent ones who aren't anywhere as good as Dotel can cost a ton.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Moving Dotel would make it much easier to afford Halladay and Rolen. Dotel is still a strike out machine and I'm sure the Sox could move him and get something useful in return.

Truth. I just want to get value out of him now from a team desperate for relief. Losing him in FA for nothing isn't something I want to do when we could conceivably get a pretty big piece or two for him. And if it's a team like the Marlins who have trouble even adding the $3M or whatever that would be left on his deal, either eat a mil or two or take back an equal contract.

[beautox]

thinking more about the pirates turing down the marlins for hermida, I think it just makes sense to get him and put him in LF and take it easy with quentin, if he comes back and tears it up awesome, then we've got a great problem on our hands, but if he comes back and hurts himself i would still prefer we have someone like hermida ready to step in, and keep the production in the outfield with hermida, podsednik and dye

[ThunderBolt]

thinking more about the pirates turing down the marlins for hermida, I think it just makes sense to get him and put him in LF and take it easy with quentin, if he comes back and tears it up awesome, then we've got a great problem on our hands, but if he comes back and hurts himself i would still prefer we have someone like hermida ready to step in, and keep the production in the outfield with hermida, podsednik and dye

I'm taking Pods being in center, for now and Wise playing LF as a strong sign that Q is expected back sooner rather than later.

[lostfan]

Anybody notice Dotel has sucked on the road lately?

Last night he got the loss.

At KC, at Cleveland, and two games at Cincy, all outings he gave up runs, multi hits in all but one of the games. His overall road numbers aren't good with 11 walks and 17 hits in 16 innings with 17 strikouts and an 0-3 record. Must be nice when you can make 6 mill a year and be a set up man. If he was doing that as a closer, he'd be crucified in the media and by fans. Now he's still considered good.

He's not a closer so that point is completely moot. Granted Dotel's WHIP is 1.50 right now which isn't good at all but Dotel is not just some nobody.

[greg775]

Relievers in baseball are rarely better pitchers than Dotel, and even the halfway decent ones who aren't anywhere as good as Dotel can cost a ton.

 

Well this great pitcher has sucked on the road this year. He is not worth 6 million clams a year, he just isn't. I don't care if he isn't a closer and the standard is lower for set up guys. Why does he get a pass for all these bad outings, especially ones on the road. Would you guys really be upset if we dealt Dotel? Are you related to him? Why all the love for Octavio Dotel?

Edited July 12, 2009 by greg775

[lostfan]

Free pass? For Dotel? What are you talking about? Are we posting on the same site? Dotel catches just as much s*** from us than anyone else. The only reliever who doesn't is Thornton but he'll inevitably hit a rough patch and he'll start hearing it too.

[greg775]

I don't sense the anger when Dotel sucks as compared to say Linebrink and they both make a pile of money. I do sense he gets a free pass on here a lot. I'm just saying at times he is unhittable but as I pointed out, his stats on the road suck, especially in the last 10 or more games.

 

[qwerty]

GMAFB. Dotel is considered good because he is good. Players go through rough stretches all the time, and I'd like you to name anyone else better than Dotel who we could acquire without giving up the farm. In fact, if you go through the rosters, you're going to find it is VERY difficult just to find set-up men who have been above-average for even 3 straight seasons, much less find set-up men who have compiled careers like Dotel. Most of the relievers who are better than Dotel have been closers, and there have been a lot of closers in Dotel's time that have been a hell of a lot worse.

 

Also, consider that Pena's numbers have been down and he's basically been a righty specialist, yet he still cost the Sox Allen. Consider how long David Aardsma has been given opportunities. Mike f***ing MacDougal was given a closer's job in Washington. Matt Capps, who totally blows, was supposedly the centerpiece in a deal for Hermida. How long did Borowski close? What about the Tigers using Jones? Relievers in baseball are rarely better pitchers than Dotel, and even the halfway decent ones who aren't anywhere as good as Dotel can cost a ton.

 

 

Capps is a very good reliever, definitely does not blow. If we look at just this year, sure, he sucks.

[DBAHO]

Well this great pitcher has sucked on the road this year. He is not worth 6 million clams a year, he just isn't. I don't care if he isn't a closer and the standard is lower for set up guys. Why does he get a pass for all these bad outings, especially ones on the road. Would you guys really be upset if we dealt Dotel? Are you related to him? Why all the love for Octavio Dotel?

Nobody is on here saying that Dotel is the greatest set-up reliever of all time.

 

But what do you trade him for?

Who replaces Dotel in the bullpen?

Do you offer Dotel arbitration in the off-season if you keep him, and hope he either accepts for a 20% or so pay-cut or declines so you can get the draft picks?

 

These are the questions that need to be answered.

[beck72]

Dotel to the Dodgers. Didn't Broxton go to the DL? Get an OF prospect in AA/ AAA who might be more ready than Jordan Danks. The sox could also get a lesser prospect prob. as well.

 

There a lot of teams that can use a guy like Dotel. What the sox should be adding is a guy for the OF who could has speed, can play defense, and potentially be used this year in the bigs. If Jordan Danks can do that, fine.