New Buyer Seller thread

[BearSox]

And you're willing to end up with Jayson Nix playing SS everyday if Beckham can't handle SS at the major league level and has to be moved to 2B?

 

Right now, we have a position of strength with our middle infielders (including Fields), but there's no certainty Gordon can play short, whereas at least we have more legitimate options for 2B and 3B that can be tried. If other teams see Beckham can't handle SS, the price tag for replacing that position with another impact-level player will be very high indeed, unless we get another Uribe/Eckstein/Everett/Wilson/Santiago/Berroa type of "filler" SS not in the long-term plans.

 

I'm not going to condemn Beckham's play at 3B and extrapolate it around the diamond or point to other players like Nix and Uribe that seem to be able to move all over the field without any negative impact defensively, but some of the mistakes at 3B in terms of judgement make you wonder how he'll do at SS when he'll have 50% more plays to make on an everyday basis.

 

Finally, there's almost NO way that Halladay would lock himself into a long-term contract extension right now in the middle of this season with the White Sox, when every player/agent is going to wait this economic crisis out and see what will happen over the next 2 years, with the economic climate for huge contracts perhaps returning once again. Why would Halladay want to be "stuck" with the White Sox if we fail to make the playoffs in 2009 and then end up going with a $65-80 million budget in 2010 with youth being the centerpiece, but rebuilding "on the fly" the context?

 

Not only that, but the Garcia extension was secured partially because of Ozzie's connection to him, at least that seems fairly likely. We have no "in" with Halladay that's comparable.

You make good points, but a couple of things I should have stated.

 

If I were to trade Alexei, Poreda, Richard, and prospects for Halladay, I'd try and get Rolen to come along with him, and at least half of Rolen's remaining contract. However, I still probably wouldn't oppossed to an Alexei, Poreda, and a throw in for Halladay straight up.

 

Second, Halladay won't sign an extension, he's gonna hit FA. However, I'd use all the resources available to me to make sure he stays with the White Sox.

 

If we don't get Rolen along in a deal, Beckham and Nix would man the left side. Considering Nix would likely be the more stable defender at SS, he'd be the easy choice. However, we would have to get another infielder who can play SS and can hit right handed pitchers.

 

Or, we could try and make a trade for Teahan and take the risk with Beckham at SS (if he can the routine plays at SS, that'd be more than adequate. And that has been something Alexei hasn't been great at).

 

Also, I'd defenitely shop Dotel and Linebrink, and trade whichever one brought the most back in a trade.

[RockRaines]

From watching him this year, the easiest way to get him out would be to throw breaking balls inside, aim them at his hip. There is really no way for him to hit the inside breaking ball with his current approach.

Name on player on the White Sox that doesn have a hole in their swing. Thats baseball, any player can get out at any time. Outside of Pujols, every hitter in the league has a pitch he cant do anything with.

[spiderman]

I have gone back and forth as to wether we should be buyers or sellers. I struggle with a make the playoffs and hope vs clear cut world series contender. I think many understand there can be a difference. My greatest fear was treading water and getting nothing done. No playoff run and no addition of promising youngsters. I really looked at our schedule until the trading deadline. 16 games in 15 days before the 31st is up with the last sets of

 

4 home Tampa Bay

 

4 in 3 days at Detroit

 

3 at Minnesota

 

2 home Yankees(third post July 31st)

 

I think that schedule will show what we are and may explain why we added a reliever already in a trade.

 

I think you can put the White Sox in the buyers category, but that doesn't mean they will make any moves between now and July 31st.

 

I doubt the Sox make any moves on the offensive side, and given that the price of Roy Halloday is so high, unless the Sox jump in a potential Erik Bedard deal, what other starting pitcher do you want?

 

I suppose they can make a deal for a 5th starter, innings type pitcher who isn't very good, but won't be completely horrible, but I wouldn't call that type of deal wouldn't make the team much better.

 

My point is, there isn't much available to get.

[spiderman]

Buy Mode, but we will have to wait until the end of the month.

 

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Arjc...ype=team_report

 

I don't believe that Kenny Williams is going to wait on a deal, should there be a guy he's zeroing in on.

[BearSox]

He's a rookie SS, he will get better and is already a pretty good defensive SS. Shying away from contact? No range? I disagree with both of those assessments. His footwork is a work in progress which is why he tiptoes around the bag during a dp, but once again, he turns a very nice one so who cares. His range right, left and out are VERY good, better than we've had in YEARS. His RF and FPCT are very respectable if not good for a rookie SS.

 

As far as his hitting, dont let your opinion get in the way of facts. He's an extremely good hitter for a middle infielder.

Since he's been moved to the 2-hole he is hitting .317 .379 .863 in 46 games. Thats good for the 4th highest OPS on the team behind Dye, Thome and Konerko. He's on pace for 22 HR and 84 RBI as a #2 hitter. Maybe your eyes may dislike his approach, but the numbers speak for themselves.

 

He's having another great offensive year, you don't see me denying that. I don't think he'll consistently be a good offensive player in the future through. His approach leaves a big weakness to breaking balls inside and he just hasn't shown me that he's a smart hitter.

 

And he is no SS. He definitely shy's away from contact on DP's. He's had plays where he dropped the feed because it was obvious he wanted to get out of the way, he's had plays when he did 360 spins to get out of the way, etc. Plus, he doesn't have any leadership qualities you want in a SS. He's a 2B or OF.

[BearSox]

Name on player on the White Sox that doesn have a hole in their swing. Thats baseball, any player can get out at any time. Outside of Pujols, every hitter in the league has a pitch he cant do anything with.

That's completely false. A lot of hitter struggle with certain pitches and pitchers, but a good hitter can hit any pitch in the strikezone if they have a good approach at bat and are smart enough to be able to look for the certain pitch.

[knightni]

Vernon Wells and cash for Hudson, Anderson and Carter?

[RockRaines]

He's having another great offensive year, you don't see me denying that. I don't think he'll consistently be a good offensive player in the future through. His approach leaves a big weakness to breaking balls inside and he just hasn't shown me that he's a smart hitter.

 

And he is no SS. He definitely shy's away from contact on DP's. He's had plays where he dropped the feed because it was obvious he wanted to get out of the way, he's had plays when he did 360 spins to get out of the way, etc. Plus, he doesn't have any leadership qualities you want in a SS. He's a 2B or OF.

Leadership qualities? How do you know? Whens the last time you were in the locker room? You are doing nothing but making vague generalizations to cut him down because you cannot come up with anything concrete to say he's not a good player. He's "had plays", come on, 1 or 2 plays depicts the type of player a guy is? Check out other rookie SS's in the league that are playing their FIRST season of pro ball at the position and tell me who is better than Alexei. You will have to go down to A ball stats for some of the guys. And dont come back with he played SS in Cuba, because he really didnt.

 

That's completely false. A lot of hitter struggle with certain pitches and pitchers, but a good hitter can hit any pitch in the strikezone if they have a good approach at bat and are smart enough to be able to look for the certain pitch.

I call complete bulls***. There are HOF hitters that couldnt do anything with certain pitches, they just knew how to foul them off, or eliminate that part of the plate. Alexei can foul off a breaking ball inside all night which sets up a pitcher to make a mistake, because he's a good hitter that adjusts well.

 

Its pretty clear you are very biased against Alexei, but I would think you could come up with something better than generalities and things you cant prove like leadership.

[103 mph screwball]

Leadership qualities? How do you know?

He doesn't seem to have leadership qualities to me either. I have not been in the locker room, but he does not have the body language of someone who is confident. In fact, it seems like someone who gets picked on or yelled at. Just my observation.

 

I don't dislike Alexei. I just drool over the starting rotation of Halladay, MB, Danks, Floyd, Count. The way Jose has been pitching, that is a deadly rotation. When you add an ace like Halladay, all the rest of your staff moves down a notch and faces lesser talent. Floyd a number 4! I think the improvement with that starting staff would be more than any drop off between Ramirez and Beckham/Nix. As far as 3b, KW will get one of those too. There is already a Teahan rumor and it is not too far fetched to get Rolen if the BJays really need to cut salary. Would it really be that hard to find a 3b better than Fields?

[caulfield12]

He's having another great offensive year, you don't see me denying that. I don't think he'll consistently be a good offensive player in the future through. His approach leaves a big weakness to breaking balls inside and he just hasn't shown me that he's a smart hitter.

 

And he is no SS. He definitely shy's away from contact on DP's. He's had plays where he dropped the feed because it was obvious he wanted to get out of the way, he's had plays when he did 360 spins to get out of the way, etc. Plus, he doesn't have any leadership qualities you want in a SS. He's a 2B or OF.

 

 

Hitting grand slams in clutch situations also demonstrates leadership abilities.

 

Ranging all over the outfield and down the foul lines like nobody we've had since Durham on the right side show he's an aggressive defender who believes every ball is his until he's called off. We didn't see that from the likes of Cabrera and Royce Clayton in the past.

 

Ramirez has a much better arm than Beckham...and a couple of ticks better than Nix.

 

I think it's way too early that Beckham is the next Derek Jeter and can be the captain of the team because he exudes so much confidence and is borderline cocky. Look at our own captain, Konerko, who is very moody and gets down on himself mentally more than any player on the team, with the possible exception of Carlos Quentin. Is Quentin a leader? Cabrera was SUPPOSED to be a leader, but he left the clubhouse within five minutes of the end of every game and was almost never available to the media like AJ/Thome/Konerko/Dye/Buehrle/Jenks.

 

Continue to be concerned that we'll have even MORE defensive problems with Beckham at SS than Ramirez.

 

Nothing will convince me otherwise, until Beckham can have a season of less than 20-25 errors at that position with the White Sox...and nothing Ozzie has said would indicate that's in their long-range thinking, not at this point. Ramirez isn't on a pace for Jose Valentin error totals, more like 18-22 in a season, which isn't a HUGE amount for a shorstop by any stretch of the imagination. Beckham might make that many in less than half a season.

[caulfield12]

Leadership qualities? How do you know? Whens the last time you were in the locker room? You are doing nothing but making vague generalizations to cut him down because you cannot come up with anything concrete to say he's not a good player. He's "had plays", come on, 1 or 2 plays depicts the type of player a guy is? Check out other rookie SS's in the league that are playing their FIRST season of pro ball at the position and tell me who is better than Alexei. You will have to go down to A ball stats for some of the guys. And dont come back with he played SS in Cuba, because he really didnt.

 

 

I call complete bulls***. There are HOF hitters that couldnt do anything with certain pitches, they just knew how to foul them off, or eliminate that part of the plate. Alexei can foul off a breaking ball inside all night which sets up a pitcher to make a mistake, because he's a good hitter that adjusts well.

 

Its pretty clear you are very biased against Alexei, but I would think you could come up with something better than generalities and things you cant prove like leadership.

 

 

 

Jermaine Dye and Mark Buehrle might be our most consistent "leaders," in terms of their day to day personalities. Thome is what he is, and so is Konerko. Then there's AJ and Jenks. Quentin hasn't really stepped into that role yet (nor do we need it from him until 2010/11/12), so firing darts at Alexei over this is kind of nitpicking to me. It's not like we are expecting so much leadership out of Danks and Floyd, too...but, then again, isn't winning Game 163 another form of leadership more than acting like Nick Swisher or Javy Vazquez and never taking responsibility for your own shortcomings or even seeming concerned about them?

 

All grindery players like Getz are leaders.....I hate that idea too.

 

Finally, Ramirezhas the fastest hands on the team and is the best at making adjustments in an at-bat, looking horrible on one pitch and then managing to get a hit when down in the count.

 

He's only what, 27 or 28 years old? He's in the prime of his baseball career. After struggling mightily the first two years and then making corrections/adjustments, we now think we've found a massive flaw or hole in his approach that other scouts and managers are not picking up on? Really?

Edited July 14, 2009 by caulfield12

[southsideirish71]

I'm not going to condemn Beckham's play at 3B and extrapolate it around the diamond or point to other players like Nix and Uribe that seem to be able to move all over the field without any negative impact defensively, but some of the mistakes at 3B in terms of judgement make you wonder how he'll do at SS when he'll have 50% more plays to make on an everyday basis.

 

I get a kick out of people trying to extrapolate a guys defensive future based on a short time at 3rd base. 3rd base is not the same as SS. 3rd base is a reaction position. Its not the same thing. You have a kid who has played the same position since he was probably a little boy. And we move him over to a new one a week before he gets to the majors and ask him to learn on the job. Its going to be a work in progress. Extrapolating his future based on month one at 3rd base is myopic at best. Do we want him to defend better, sure. He is learning. He will have some setbacks. And he will move forward. Crede and Ventura were hardly the defensive gems we saw later on in life in their first month on the job.

 

 

[beautox]

He's a rookie SS, he will get better and is already a pretty good defensive SS. Shying away from contact? No range? I disagree with both of those assessments. His footwork is a work in progress which is why he tiptoes around the bag during a dp, but once again, he turns a very nice one so who cares. His range right, left and out are VERY good, better than we've had in YEARS. His RF and FPCT are very respectable if not good for a rookie SS.

 

As far as his hitting, dont let your opinion get in the way of facts. He's an extremely good hitter for a middle infielder.

Since he's been moved to the 2-hole he is hitting .317 .379 .863 in 46 games. Thats good for the 4th highest OPS on the team behind Dye, Thome and Konerko. He's on pace for 22 HR and 84 RBI as a #2 hitter. Maybe your eyes may dislike his approach, but the numbers speak for themselves.

 

 

Seriously though people forget he is new to SS at the major league level, and i think he has done better than a respectable job, yea he looses concentration but his bat and defense at SS are a huge asset. I look forward to him being on the southside for a long time to come. Hes capable of a 20/20 season this year and if he can get his technique down at 30/30 season all the while he is walking more.

 

I look at alexei as a little bit more powerful version of Jimmy Rollins, with the potential to OPS around 800-815 with less speed

[GreatScott82]

You make good points, but a couple of things I should have stated.

 

If I were to trade Alexei, Poreda, Richard, and prospects for Halladay, I'd try and get Rolen to come along with him, and at least half of Rolen's remaining contract. However, I still probably wouldn't oppossed to an Alexei, Poreda, and a throw in for Halladay straight up.

 

Second, Halladay won't sign an extension, he's gonna hit FA. However, I'd use all the resources available to me to make sure he stays with the White Sox.

 

If we don't get Rolen along in a deal, Beckham and Nix would man the left side. Considering Nix would likely be the more stable defender at SS, he'd be the easy choice. However, we would have to get another infielder who can play SS and can hit right handed pitchers.

 

Or, we could try and make a trade for Teahan and take the risk with Beckham at SS (if he can the routine plays at SS, that'd be more than adequate. And that has been something Alexei hasn't been great at).

 

Also, I'd defenitely shop Dotel and Linebrink, and trade whichever one brought the most back in a trade.

I like where your heads at. If you could convince Halladay that we will compete during the next 3 seasons with a few signings as well as devloping our young talent, i think he would stay. He's a classy guy and just wants to win. If KW can sell Dotel or Linebrink, and with the subtractions of Contreras, Colon, Dye and Thome away from our payroll- All that money can be used for an extension toward Halladay and should be just enough to afford Rolen for a year and a half.

 

Ramirez, Poreda, Richard, Fields and a couple of prospects (hopefully not Danks or Flowers) for Halladay and Rolen and you have yourself a deal. A rotation of Buerhle, Halladay, Danks, Floyd and an improved Contreras the rest of the way makes us the best rotation 1-5 in baseball IMO. Thats a rotation that could go deep in the postseason.

 

If you add Rolen's bat to an already solid lineup and CQ comes back as well, the Sox are the team to watch in the 2nd half. I've always been a HUGE fan of Rolen and wouldn't object to pay him 11.5 mil next season.

 

Just imagine this lineup Sox fans:

Pods CF

Rolen 3B

Dye RF

Thome DH

Konerko 1B

Quentin LF

Pierzynski C

Beckham SS

Getz 2B

 

Your telling me that doesn't make you gitty?

[rangercal]

^^^^

 

I really would be reluctant to trading Alexei, but you gotta do it if we could get Halladay and Rolen back without giving much more than Alexei.

 

Edit: noticed poreda was a part of it too, I would still do it, but it would be pretty hard.

Edited July 14, 2009 by rangercal

[GreatScott82]

One more thing. If KW gets a deal done for a guy of Halladay's caliber, AND with Quentin coming back on friday tix will sell like hot cakes the rest of the way! Just a thought. . .

[GreatScott82]

^^^^

 

I really would be reluctant to trading Alexei, but you gotta do it if we could get Halladay and Rolen back without giving much more than Alexei.

 

Edit: noticed poreda was a part of it too, I would still do it, but it would be pretty hard.

giving up Reed and Olivo was pretty hard as well when that deal happened. . when you get another team's ace, your going to lose some young talent. Good thing for us is we actually have enough depth in the farm to afford to lose 2 or 3 assets. If KW could pull a deal off w/o giving up Jordan Danks, Tyler Flowers or Dayan Viciedo than were still in very good shape going forward.

 

Viciedo would essentially replace Rolen in 2011, Danks has the potential of being our every day CF next year and Flowers will likely be our every day C in 2011.

Edited July 14, 2009 by GreatScott82

[knightni]

Hell, why not get Halladay, Rolen, Wells and Rios together while we're at it.

[caulfield12]

An injury-prone Scott Rolen at $11.5 million in his declining thirties is almost never the kind of investment that KW makes...there is really no example of a player coming in like that during his tenure, position player.

 

We didn't want to pay Joe Crede any more than half that and a struggling team (attendance-wise) will commit to a player who has at least a 50% chance of being untradeable or a sunk cost next season, decreasing our flexibility to add some much cheaper parts in the offseason.

 

If we could get, for example Abreu and Orlando Hudson for the same price as ONE injury-prone, Scott Rolen and not have to give up any talent to do so going into 2010, wouldn't that make a lot more sense?

 

And there's no way we can guarantee to Halladay a competitive team and upper-tier payroll in the future like about 8-10 other teams in baseball can do with more credibility in their boast.

Edited July 14, 2009 by caulfield12

[GreatScott82]

An injury-prone Scott Rolen at $11.5 million in his declining thirties is almost never the kind of investment that KW makes...there is really no example of a player coming in like that during his tenure, position player.

 

We didn't want to pay Joe Crede any more than half that and a struggling team (attendance-wise) will commit to a player who has at least a 50% chance of being untradeable or a sunk cost next season, decreasing our flexibility to add some much cheaper parts in the offseason.

 

If we could get, for example Abreu and Orlando Hudson for the same price as ONE injury-prone, Scott Rolen and not have to give up any talent to do so going into 2010, wouldn't that make a lot more sense?

 

And there's no way we can guarantee to Halladay a competitive team and upper-tier payroll in the future like about 8-10 other teams in baseball can do with more credibility in their boast.

 

Scott Rolen's #'s:

 

.320 AVG, .377 OBP, 35 RBI, 6 HR and 26 2B. He has missed 13 out of 90 games, but hasn't spent time on the DL since August of last year. He appears to be 100% healthy and ready to go. And if KW does try to get this guy, im positive its with the attempt of having the Jays take half his salary for next season. . Similar to the Rowand deal.

 

Rolen's expirering contract also fits in pretty well with the other veterans such as Konerko and AJ after next season- Hopefully to make room for Viciedo and Flowers- so if KW plays his cards right he could make this work and still look forward to a youth movement at the same time. The whole 'Getting Younger On The Fly' would still work.

Edited July 14, 2009 by GreatScott82

[103 mph screwball]

Scott Rolen's #'s:

 

.320 AVG, .377 OBP, 35 RBI, 6 HR and 26 2B. He has missed 13 out of 90 games, but hasn't spent time on the DL since August of last year. He appears to be 100% healthy and ready to go. And if KW does try to get this guy, im positive its with the attempt of having the Jays take half his salary for next season. . Similar to the Rowand deal.

 

Rolen's expirering contract also fits in pretty well with the other veterans such as Konerko and AJ after next season- Hopefully to make room for Viciedo and Flowers- so if KW plays his cards right he could make this work and still look forward to a youth movement at the same time. The whole 'Getting Younger On The Fly' would still work.

 

Not to mention the upgrade defensively at 3b. Rolen's bat would definitely have an impact. If the Sox need to take salary from the Jays, I'd much rather it be Rolen than Rios or Wells.

[caulfield12]

Saving the money by getting a subsidy from the D-Backs for Vazquez and getting them to take on Vizcaino's contract cost us Chris Young, so a similar situation would be in play here.

 

We would have to give up Ramirez, who is AT LEAST the equivalent of Chris Young....for starters.

 

There's no way we could get away from giving up Flowers/Viciedo/Jordan Danks/Beckham for Halladay unless we gave them Poreda, Richard and Hudson along with Ramirez and then maybe Shelby and ONE other piece like Anderson/Nix/Fields.

 

It's giving up Beckham and/or Ramirez that I'm sure is where KW is blinking on this deal. He knows those three pitchers and what they are projected to do by our staff, whether they have the ability to make it as a starter, etc.

 

But we have no replacement for Ramirez or Beckham's impact on our middle infield, nor a sure-fire 3B for the long-term unless Viciedo really turns things around defensively. The jury's definitely still out on that happening.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lemon_44]

the type of deal i could see KW making is picking up Vernon Wells and having Toronto pay 1/2,or more,of his salary. Wells seems like a KW type of player(reminds of a Dye/Hunter type) and he's made a big deal like that for Thome in the past. Plus Wells isn't going to gut your farm system to get him. Toronto sheds a bunch of salary and the Sox get the everyday CF they so desperatlely need. Danks is probably a few years away so Wells could man CF until he's ready and then move over to LF/DH when the time comes. You get CQ back and add a guy like Wells and this lineup is deadly. Podsednik will still have plenty of AB filling in for guys. Anyway, you wouldn't let a Podsednik playing well keep you from doing a deal for Wells no matter what.Pods will be lucky to be on the team next year.

[OldSmoky2]

I just don't see KW shaking up this team right now by trading starters like Alexei in a big deal, a la Halladay/Rolen, etc. It just doesn't seem to be his mid-season MO. And given his recently-stated money concerns, KW has to love Alexei's contract long-term.

I think they see over the next week or so how CQ comes back. If he's good to go, KW and Ozzie probably feel pretty good about their outfield and starting offense at this point, especially with how the bottom of the lineup has produced lately. Based on KW's past track record (Geoff Blum), I do think the Teahen rumor is one to watch. KW and Ozzie keep Wise around because they want a left-handed bat for certain situations. I don't think they're blind though to Wise's .198 average; given a chance to replace Wise with Teahen without giving up the farm is a tweak I think KW is probably looking to make. Teahen is also a lot more versatile than Wise, again like Blum. It may not end up being Teahen, but I think KW is probably looking for a LH hitter like that.

The other obvious concern right now is fifth starter. With the second-half schedule, KW knows we can't keep blowing every fifth game right out of the box, let alone wasting the bullpen in games where we're down several runs early. I wish I knew what the scouts and coaches are telling KW about Freddy's progress in AZ. I know KW and Ozzie would love most of all for Freddy to come back and pitch some clutch games for us down the stretch. If they don't think he can, though, as they watch him over the next week or two, a competent fifth starter (not an ace) may be high on KW's shopping list. Again, that's another mid-season KW-type move that wouldn't cost us the farm.

[103 mph screwball]

I just don't see KW shaking up this team right now by trading starters like Alexei in a big deal, a la Halladay/Rolen, etc. It just doesn't seem to be his mid-season MO. And given his recently-stated money concerns, KW has to love Alexei's contract long-term.

I think they see over the next week or so how CQ comes back. If he's good to go, KW and Ozzie probably feel pretty good about their outfield and starting offense at this point, especially with how the bottom of the lineup has produced lately. Based on KW's past track record (Geoff Blum), I do think the Teahen rumor is one to watch. KW and Ozzie keep Wise around because they want a left-handed bat for certain situations. I don't think they're blind though to Wise's .198 average; given a chance to replace Wise with Teahen without giving up the farm is a tweak I think KW is probably looking to make. Teahen is also a lot more versatile than Wise, again like Blum. It may not end up being Teahen, but I think KW is probably looking for a LH hitter like that.

The other obvious concern right now is fifth starter. With the second-half schedule, KW knows we can't keep blowing every fifth game right out of the box, let alone wasting the bullpen in games where we're down several runs early. I wish I knew what the scouts and coaches are telling KW about Freddy's progress in AZ. I know KW and Ozzie would love most of all for Freddy to come back and pitch some clutch games for us down the stretch. If they don't think he can, though, as they watch him over the next week or two, a competent fifth starter (not an ace) may be high on KW's shopping list. Again, that's another mid-season KW-type move that wouldn't cost us the farm.

Welcome to Soxtalk!

I curious about Freddie as well. Alexei's contract is reasonable, but I do think it is Kenny's MO to go after the big fish, especially a cy young quality starting pitcher.