NorthSideSox72 Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 OK, we're getting close to the line here on the religious comments. Saying "people who believe X are morons/retarded" when many people here believe that, is not going to fly. So before it gets more out of hand, let's just drop that s***, mmmmkay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 02:12 PM) Now we're to the part of the thread where people start insulting each other. See my warning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 12:11 PM) See M-Theory for one possibility. I know that, but still, by a lot of definitions, you could certainly call the appearance of our universe due to the collision of 2 11-dimensional membranes the appearance of something out of nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 02:10 PM) So what does science say was there before the big bang? A singularity in which known physical constraints wouldn't hold. I'm not up on my cosmology so I don't know if its currently thought that this pre-bang "molecule" or what it was like before or during its existence is knowable or not. QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 02:14 PM) I know that, but still, by a lot of definitions, you could certainly call the appearance of our universe due to the collision of 2 11-dimensional membranes the appearance of something out of nothing. You're in an infinite regress problem--where did those membranes come from? What existed before those? And before that etc. etc. Edited July 15, 2009 by StrangeSox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 02:04 PM) Yeah, there are few if any more complex issues we all face than religion and faith. Hard to call anyone a moron because of their beliefs or lack thereof. After all, we're all just a clusterf*** of cells running around that evolved from a cesspool of rocks. Ameobas I'm sure came from rocks. Or something. Besides that, we sure do have a lot of free will from evolving from amoebas, don't we? Proving or disproving the exisitance of God is something that can't be done from a scientific viewpoint, so I wish people would stop trying to view it from that prism. You either have faith that there's a God or you don't. It's your choice. I don't condemn people for thinking one way or the other, but just hope you're not on the wrong side of it the day you die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 02:14 PM) I know that, but still, by a lot of definitions, you could certainly call the appearance of our universe due to the collision of 2 11-dimensional membranes the appearance of something out of nothing. According to the theory the big bang happens an infinite # of times whenever the membranes bump into each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 02:14 PM) You're in an infinite regress problem--where did those membranes come from? What existed before those? And before that etc. etc. Turtles, all the way down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 QUOTE (kapkomet @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 12:17 PM) After all, we're all just a clusterf*** of cells running around that evolved from a cesspool of rocks. Ameobas I'm sure came from rocks. Or something. We've got some good ideas and we're working on explaining how that happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 QUOTE (kapkomet @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 02:17 PM) I don't condemn people for thinking one way or the other, but just hope you're not on the wrong side of it the day you die. You just said, I don't condemn you, then said, you are condemned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 02:18 PM) You just said, I don't condemn you, then said, you are condemned. To be more clear, it's not my place for the "condemnation". I hope that people are not on the wrong side of that belief, is all I meant. I'm not trying to personally condemn them. Does that make better sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 QUOTE (kapkomet @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 02:17 PM) After all, we're all just a clusterf*** of cells running around that evolved from a cesspool of rocks. Ameobas I'm sure came from rocks. Or something. Besides that, we sure do have a lot of free will from evolving from amoebas, don't we? Proving or disproving the exisitance of God is something that can't be done from a scientific viewpoint, so I wish people would stop trying to view it from that prism. You either have faith that there's a God or you don't. It's your choice. I don't condemn people for thinking one way or the other, but just hope you're not on the wrong side of it the day you die. Wanna get the opinion of someone who has faith there's a God...so, if there is one, why would said God give us free will to decide whether or not we have that faith? And if so, why would someone that doesn't believe be punished for exercising their free will? Because, if there is a God and I am punished for not believing, then free will is a hoax and there's really no purpose to life other than total service to that God. And please, none of the..."serving people is serving your God" stuff...serving your fellow man should be done regardless of belief in a higher power. Discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 QUOTE (kapkomet @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 02:17 PM) After all, we're all just a clusterf*** of cells running around that evolved from a cesspool of rocks. Ameobas I'm sure came from rocks. Or something. Besides that, we sure do have a lot of free will from evolving from amoebas, don't we? Proving or disproving the exisitance of God is something that can't be done from a scientific viewpoint, so I wish people would stop trying to view it from that prism. You either have faith that there's a God or you don't. It's your choice. I don't condemn people for thinking one way or the other, but just hope you're not on the wrong side of it the day you die. You can't prove or disprove a supernatural entity working from methodological naturalism, as science does. You can, however, falsify or support various ideas such as special creation or common descent with modification. When claims of the supernatural reach into the physical realm (evolution, abiogenesis, a 6k year earth), they can be tested scientifically. To keep with the spirit of the thread, I think all forms of pseudo-science such as ID should be kept as far away from the science classroom as possible. It's religion re-branded to get around Supreme Court decisions and nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 QUOTE (kapkomet @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 02:20 PM) To be more clear, it's not my place for the "condemnation". I hope that people are not on the wrong side of that belief, is all I meant. I'm not trying to personally condemn them. Does that make better sense? Yes. I guess I just think, God is something we cannot possibly know. That's why its called faith. And I can't really say with any certaintly whatsoever what will happen when I die, or when you die, or anyone else dies. That's why it doesn't sit well with me when people say things like "you better be right", because that is only meaningful if you are also willing to say "I better be right". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 02:17 PM) Turtles, all the way down. Best response ever to any prime mover argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 QUOTE (CanOfCorn @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 03:22 PM) Wanna get the opinion of someone who has faith there's a God...so, if there is one, why would said God give us free will to decide whether or not we have that faith? And if so, why would someone that doesn't believe be punished for exercising their free will? Because, if there is a God and I am punished for not believing, then free will is a hoax and there's really no purpose to life other than total service to that God. And please, none of the..."serving people is serving your God" stuff...serving your fellow man should be done regardless of belief in a higher power. Discuss. To put it simply: Free will gives you the choice to believe what you want, whether to have faith or to not, but if you choose not to believe and then end up being wrong, why should you be rewarded? Plus there's the whole Christian baptism thing but that's more of a man-made argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 03:23 PM) Yes. I guess I just think, God is something we cannot possibly know. That's why its called faith. And I can't really say with any certaintly whatsoever what will happen when I die, or when you die, or anyone else dies. That's why it doesn't sit well with me when people say things like "you better be right", because that is only meaningful if you are also willing to say "I better be right". I think he was using the universal you. Plus, that goes both ways. If you believe and expect to be rewarded and end up being wrong, whoops. But if you don't believe and end up being wrong, uh-oh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 02:29 PM) I think he was using the universal you. Plus, that goes both ways. If you believe and expect to be rewarded and end up being wrong, whoops. But if you don't believe and end up being wrong, uh-oh! I just find it difficult to believe that "God" would be spiteful. Seems a bit immature. GOD: So you lived a long good life, staying true to your spouse, raising 2 children with love and care, donated a substantial amount of time and money to charities, taught as a school teacher in an impoverished area, and served in the Peace Corps? Soul: Yes GOD: Well f*** you. You didn't believe in me. Off to hell with you! Edited July 15, 2009 by BigSqwert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 02:32 PM) I just find it difficult to believe that "God" would be spiteful. Seems a bit immature. As a matter of personal belief, I agree. If there is a God in any conventional, major religion sense, I'm pretty confident they will judge me based on my actions, not which building I chose to kneel in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 02:26 PM) To put it simply: Free will gives you the choice to believe what you want, whether to have faith or to not, but if you choose not to believe and then end up being wrong, why should you be rewarded? Plus there's the whole Christian baptism thing but that's more of a man-made argument. It's not a question of being rewarded...it's a question of having free will. Seems kind of odd that a person would be given something to use as he/she sees fit only to be told at the very end that they were doing it wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 It's just Pascal's Wager restated. The primary problem with the argument is that it assumes a binary state -- believe or not -- when it reality there's infinitely many belief choices. Who's to say that god wouldn't punish someone who believed in a false idol more than someone who didn't believe in any religion? I don't particularly care for Dawkins' theological writings, but I think he summed it up fairly nicely: "We are all atheists about most of the gods humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 02:37 PM) As a matter of personal belief, I agree. If there is a God in any conventional, major religion sense, I'm pretty confident they will judge me based on my actions, not which building I chose to kneel in. I guess I could have stated it that way without the ridiculous dialogue example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 02:40 PM) "We are all atheists about most of the gods humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." Similar to the quote in my sig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 03:32 PM) I just find it difficult to believe that "God" would be spiteful. Seems a bit immature. GOD: So you lived a long good life, staying true to your spouse, raising 2 children with love and care, donated a substantial amount of time and money to charities, taught as a school teacher in an impoverished area, and served in the Peace Corps? Soul: Yes GOD: Well f*** you. You didn't believe in me. Off to hell with you! It's not about spite. I can't speak for other religions, but I know with most of Christianity it is believed that non-believers, if virtuous/good/etc, won't be punished, but would be in a purgatory/limbo type place. I don't necessary believe that, nor do I believe a lot about what Catholicism says, but I do believe there is some sort of greater power out there that is beyong my comprehension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 QUOTE (CanOfCorn @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 03:40 PM) It's not a question of being rewarded...it's a question of having free will. Seems kind of odd that a person would be given something to use as he/she sees fit only to be told at the very end that they were doing it wrong. Well, with that logic should murderers and rapists be absolved because after all, they were just using their free will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 02:42 PM) but I do believe there is some sort of greater power out there that is beyong my comprehension. That's quite possible but I don't think we can ever know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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