Halladay Superthread

[Balta1701]

Wow 15 pages on a rumor that hasn't even mentioned us yet? Damn...

 

Halladay might actually take a Gavin Floyd + prospects.

You know, I might actually be more willing to move Gavin than I am to move Flowers. You get a pitcher back, you keep some semblance of a 2011 board in tact.

[Dick Allen]

I stand by my point. I think the Sox make it a point to try to be a better organization than that to people, and I think it benefits them in the long term. Where could we ever get off asking again a person to switch his agent away from Boras if that's what we do to a family that listens to our request? Why would you willingly sign a contract with that team if you're a FA? Wouldn't you demand extra NTC protection, that sort of thing?

KW traded Jeremy Reed, who at the same age as Jordan is right now, hit .409 at Birmingham and had an OPS 200 points higher than Jordan's is right now, and stole 18 bases in half a season as part of a package for Freddy Garcia, who , while a nice pitcher, couldn't hold Roy Halladay's jock. KW works for the Chicago White Sox, not the Danks family. Its not like they would be throwing Jordan on the street with nowhere to go. If a deal made sense to the White Sox, KW wouldn't hesitate to give Jordan Danks up. Mr. Danks might not like it, but that's baseball. Jordan would still be a pro playing for another organization. I don't see where that's treating him or his family poorly.

[Chicago White Sox]

Trading any of our young guys away, when we are on the verge of reloading our rosters is short sighted and will cost us in the long run. This is a flawed team, and the idea of mortgaging the future for slight chance is not worth it. If we get into the playoffs we are already okay from a pitching standpoint. Our pitching is far from the problem this year. We are near the top in the AL in pitching, and our top 4 pretty much match up with anyone in a series.

 

AJ is older

Thome is old

Dye is older and needs to be a DH soon.

Konerko is older.

 

 

This needs to be replaced in the short term, not the long term. I am not saying that all of our prospects are going to pan out, but they sure as hell can get you pieces for the long term. In this of all economies, young cheap talent is worth as much as gold. We only have to look back a few years on how emptying the system can screw us on a future deal. We could have Miguel Cabrera here right now if we didnt have a weak system at the time. Doc is a great pitcher, but its not our time yet for these types of deals.

 

This is the best post I've seen in this entire thread, although Balta has had some very good ones as well.

 

For most of this season, the vast majority of posters have admitted our offensive core is aging. As southsideirish71 identified, there are four key contributors who are getting up there in age. Yes, these guys are still valuable to our team, but the question is for how long? We can’t really depend on these guys for more than one or two more years (perhaps 3 for Dye if moved to DH). We finally have several high-upside position playing prospects in our system that could possibly replace these guys over the next few seasons. Flowers, Danks, Allen & Viciedo are legitimate talents who have a solid chance at sticking in the pros. If they do, they allow cost certainty that’s needed to resign other core players (Quentin, Danks, Bobby) and allow us to fill holes through free agency. Some of these guys may not make it, but to automatically assume none of these guys will be impact players in crazy. I don’t care how many of our past prospects have flopped, we have a new development regime in place and this group of prospects has so much more talent.

 

For those of you so willing to trade the farm for a short-term fix, how do you expect to replace these veterans in the next year or two? The Sox will have some money to fill a hole here or there, but we can’t replace four starting position players. Furthermore, we don’t exactly have another wave of position-playing prospects coming behind this one. It could be years before we can fill some of these holes internally if we trade all our current prospects away. It just blows my mind how much “sell sell sell” talk was going on this website just two weeks. A seven game winning streak later, now everyone wants to forfeit a possibly bright future for a guy under control for a year and a half. Please don’t mention the type a compensation he will bring either. Good prospects in the upper levels in the minors are worth so much more, because they’ve already gotten this far while your two new draft picks may not. If Halladay could be had for lets say Poreda, Richard, Allen and some A ball prospect I’d accept it in a heartbeat. The problem is he will cost lots of near MLB-ready talent which is just not worth when we’re already four strong in our rotation.

 

[Dick Allen]

This is the best post I've seen in this entire thread, although Balta has had some very good ones as well.

 

For most of this season, the vast majority of posters have admitted our offensive core is aging. As southsideirish71 identified, there are four key contributors who are getting up there in age. Yes, these guys are still valuable to our team, but the question is for how long? We can’t really depend on these guys for more than one or two more years (perhaps 3 for Dye if moved to DH). We finally have several high-upside position playing prospects in our system that could possibly replace these guys over the next few seasons. Flowers, Danks, Allen & Viciedo are legitimate talents who have a solid chance at sticking in the pros. If they do, they allow cost certainty that’s needed to resign other core players (Quentin, Danks, Bobby) and allow us to fill holes through free agency. Some of these guys may not make it, but to automatically assume none of these guys will be impact players in crazy. I don’t care how many of our past prospects have flopped, we have a new development regime in place and this group of prospects has so much more talent.

 

For those of you so willing to trade the farm for a short-term fix, how do you expect to replace these veterans in the next year or two? The Sox will have some money to fill a hole here or there, but we can’t replace four starting position players. Furthermore, we don’t exactly have another wave of position-playing prospects coming behind this one. It could be years before we can fill some of these holes internally if we trade all our current prospects away. It just blows my mind how much “sell sell sell” talk was going on this website just two weeks. A seven game winning streak later, now everyone wants to forfeit a possibly bright future for a guy under control for a year and a half. Please don’t mention the type a compensation he will bring either. Good prospects in the upper levels in the minors are worth so much more, because they’ve already gotten this far while your two new draft picks may not. If Halladay could be had for lets say Poreda, Richard, Allen and some A ball prospect I’d accept it in a heartbeat. The problem is he will cost lots of near MLB-ready talent which is just not worth when we’re already four strong in our rotation.

Beckham, Ramirez, Getz and Konerko are all signed through next year. All but Konerko should be around for quite some time.

Quentin should be around a long while.

Dye has an option for next season. AJ is signed through next season.

The old core, Konerko, Thome, Dye, AJ, Contreras, Dotel all have huge contracts. There will be money to plug in the holes when they depart. Pitching wins. Halladay, Buerhle, Danks, Floyd is a pretty good start for a rotation, and should keep the team in contention as long as they stay healthy. I don't think the Sox will get Halladay but he brings so much to the table. He pitches more innings than anyone else. He pitches higher quality innings than anyone else. He wins and saves your bullpen. I know a lot of people think Allen and Viciedo and Flowers and Poreda and Mitchell and JorDanks are all going to be stars. I certainly hope they are, but chances are not all of them will be, and maybe not even one of them. If some halfway reasonable combination of these players gets you Roy Halladay (I wouldn't give them all up, but 2 of them with Richard or maybe 3 of them without), you don't hesitate. If Halladay can't be signed and the Sox aren't in a position to win in 2010, you spin him somewhere else. Maybe the economy is better, and some other prospects or players come the Sox way. KW has always swung hard when it came to big name pitchers. I can't see where he hasn't or at least won't inquire about Halladay.

[elrockinMT]

Do we really want to extend a guy who'll be 33 years old at the time?

 

 

I wouldn't. Plus when you look at the names of our prospects that are being thrown around you wonder why we would gut the organization for one player? I would rather develop our own, or at least not be so quick to give up the whole farm for one guy.

[whitesoxbrian]

Flowers + Poreda + Richard + Getz would do the trick, I'm guessing. I know Flowers is the next Johnny Bench by reading some of these posts around here, but we just drafted Peghley, and while he might not stick as a catcher, the same was said about Flowers a year ago. Halladay is a freak out there and he along with Buehrle-Floyd-Danks makes us an instant contender. From there, we trade a solid prospect for Cristian Guzman or Felipe Lopez to replace Getz.

 

BTW- I can't stand David Kaplan. He's such a Cub-homer. "If I'm the Sox, I trade Beckham and Poreda for Halladay". Shut up, you dope. That's because you don't want to see Beckham slam line-drives off the wall to beat the Cubs anymore.

Edited July 8, 2009 by whitesoxbrian

[WCSox]

Flowers + Poreda + Richard + Getz would do the trick, I'm guessing.

 

I'd be fine with that, but I think that Ricciardi would want either Danks or Floyd. No way I trade either of those two for 1 1/2 seasons of Halladay, especially with the veteran talent that the Sox will be losing over the next year.

 

[whitesoxbrian]

If the Sox trade Beckham, I'd find KW and hurt him. The next best thing we can do is trade Flowers. I'm pretty sure Toronto doesn't have any stud young C's down on the farm, so...

[BearSox]

The Jays would have no interest in Getz do to the fact they already have Hill... unless they plan on moving him to 3B after they get rid of Rolen, but I doubt that.

[BearSox]

LOL at what some people think it would take to get Halladay. Look at what the Twins got for Santana. The only MLB ready player that got was Gomez, and everyone knew he was extremely raw.

 

All this talk about Floyd or Danks needing to be a part of the deal is just silly. If the Blue Jays are expecting them back in a return, they weren't serious about trading Halladay in the first place.

[GreatScott82]

LOL at what some people think it would take to get Halladay. Look at what the Twins got for Santana. The only MLB ready player that got was Gomez, and everyone knew he was extremely raw.

 

All this talk about Floyd or Danks needing to be a part of the deal is just silly. If the Blue Jays are expecting them back in a return, they weren't serious about trading Halladay in the first place.

KW is not involving Floyd or Danks in any deal. But KW has over payed for guys in the past. Guys like Todd Richie and Nick Swisher come to mind. With the latest statement coming from KW, it looks like were not adding anything significant this season.

[Swingandalongonetoleft]

With the latest statement coming from KW, it looks like were not adding anything significant this season.

 

Fool me once...

 

The first thought I had when I read his attendance statement was that the man talks from two mouths. One outta his face and one outta his ass. During Hot Stove and in the heat of trading season in a winnable year it's almost always the latter.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Swingandalongonetoleft

[chisoxfan09]

Man, really good thoughts on this one. Now that the thread has been around for a day I too am of the opinion maybe to not mortgage the farm for 1.5 years of Halladay. That being said nothing is a sure thing with our AA/AAA prospects. But with Egbert/Torres doing well in AAA and Huddie/Shirek developing in AA plus Carter in A ball well maybe we have some good RHP talent for late 2010 or 2011 at the latest.

Just seems the price will be too steep and I still reiterate that Halladay would have to sign minimum 2 year extension. Seemed like a great idea when the news hit but with time you always see the other side of the argument.

Not tryin to look too far into the future but a future Ace if he continues to rock and has a great 2010 will be King Felix Hernandez of Seattle. Man he will be on every team's wishlist afeter next season (Although it may be the end of 2011, not 100% sure).

[Lemon_44]

On Mike and Mike this morning, Olney said it will probably take 2 or 3 top propsects for Halladay.Either 2 ML ready guys (Richard/Poreda?) or 1 ml ready and 2 top minor league prospects (Richard, Danks, Hudson??) would probably do the trick. He said he thinks Philly is a strong contender to get him. Not that that means anything.

[Adam G]

I wonder if the Blue Jays will make us take Vernon Wells' awful contract.

[witesoxfan]

LOL at what some people think it would take to get Halladay. Look at what the Twins got for Santana. The only MLB ready player that got was Gomez, and everyone knew he was extremely raw.

 

All this talk about Floyd or Danks needing to be a part of the deal is just silly. If the Blue Jays are expecting them back in a return, they weren't serious about trading Halladay in the first place.

 

The Twins dealing Santana is a completely different scenario to the Jays moving Halladay. The Twins HAD to move Santana for budgetary purposes and because you can't merely get two compensatory selections for a player of that quality. The Blue Jays don't have to do a damn thing, if the best package on the table doesn't suit what they want, they can hang up the phone and let Doc keep on pitching.

[WCSox]

But KW has over payed for guys in the past. Guys like Todd Richie and Nick Swisher come to mind.

 

Absolutely agree about Ritchie, but Swisher was more of a salary dump than anything. That and he annoyed the hell out of everybody in the clubhouse.

 

The Twins dealing Santana is a completely different scenario to the Jays moving Halladay. The Twins HAD to move Santana for budgetary purposes and because you can't merely get two compensatory selections for a player of that quality. The Blue Jays don't have to do a damn thing, if the best package on the table doesn't suit what they want, they can hang up the phone and let Doc keep on pitching.

 

Do we know for sure that the Jays don't HAVE to move Halladay for budgetary purposes as well? They're averaging 22,800 per game (25th in the majors) in a city that doesn't really care about baseball and are paying B.J. Ryan $12 million this year to suck.

 

[YASNY]

OK, I was reading about Paulie's 3 dingers on the Sox site and I saw this in the comments after the story ... FWIW, from someone named _Dylan_:

 

allright, breaking news. i was listening to the score about an hour ago, and some guy called in and said that his brother works for the sox front office, or something like that. he said that his brother told him that the sox offered blue jays 5 players for halladay (3 minor leaguers and 2 major leaguers, he didnt say who though), but he didnt specify on the outcome of the offer. i dont know how much of this is true, since anyone can just call and speak on the radio, but that's what i heard.

[CanOfCorn]

Absolutely agree about Ritchie, but Swisher was more of a salary dump than anything. That and he annoyed the hell out of everybody in the clubhouse.

 

 

 

Do we know for sure that the Jays don't HAVE to move Halladay for budgetary purposes as well? They're averaging 22,800 per game (25th in the majors) in a city that doesn't really care about baseball and are paying B.J. Ryan $12 million this year to suck.

 

And Wells nearly $100 mil to suck. And Alex Rios nearly $60 mil to underachieve. They don't NEED to move Doc, but it would help.

[BearSox]

OK, I was reading about Paulie's 3 dingers on the Sox site and I saw this in the comments after the story ... FWIW, from someone named _Dylan_:

If it is true, I would say the 2 major leaguers are obviously Poreda and Richard. As for the minor leaguers, I'll say Flowers, Carter, and Shelby.

[Steve9347]

If it is true, I would say the 2 major leaguers are obviously Poreda and Richard. As for the minor leaguers, I'll say Flowers, Carter, and Shelby.

I'd s*** if we got Halladay.

 

What's his contract status regarding a NTC?

[YASNY]

I'd s*** if we got Halladay.

 

What's his contract status regarding a NTC?

 

He has one.

[BigSqwert]

I'd s*** if we got Halladay.

Hopefully figuratively.

[WCSox]

He has one.

 

And I get the feeling that he'd be more willing to move away from Toronto than Peavy was to move away from SD.

 

Not that it means that he'll get anything, but I have no doubt that Kenny has given Ricciardi a call or two over the past week. He'd be a bad GM if he didn't at least try to get a feel for what it'd take to get Halladay.

 

[chisoxfan09]

OK, I was reading about Paulie's 3 dingers on the Sox site and I saw this in the comments after the story ... FWIW, from someone named _Dylan_:

 

Yasny, just checked on the MLB Sox forum and they have 2 similar threads running and one also mentions Peter Gammons on AM 1000 discussing the White Sox and KW interested but no concrete details. Would be curious to see if anything comes of this. MLBTR does not report any thing concrete other than the Red Sox, Angels, and Phillies are the front runners and the hypothetically Halladay may only be interested in those clubs (Not proven either). We are gonna sleep/breathe/eat Halladay rumors until the 31st or earlier if he gets traded. More to follow.