Halladay Superthread

[Balta1701]

The deal imediately becomes worth it if Halladay signs an entension right away.

Not necessarily if it winds you up paying $16 million a year through age 36 or 37 for Halladay.

[caulfield12]

Alexie is a great streaky player and would definitley be missed if gets traded ever. But in order to get something of great value, you have to give something of great value. Kind of like the Freddy Garcia deal. We gave up Olivo, he was a guy we were all in love with ( a young and up and coming star), but we recieved Garcia- he signed an extension and we won a title.

 

If we could get Halladay and sign him to an extension, i'd say we won that deal. Now if you also bring in Rolen (a guy who is currently .330 and is rocking a 25 game hit streak) were set to contend this year and next. You lose Flowers, a guy we got for Vazquez and you also lose Poreda (this guy is the real deal and the Jays will love him).

 

But IMO this would be a great deal for both teams. The Sox still have decent depth in the farm and have a 1.5 year oppurtunity (at least) to win a title with Doc Halladay in thier rotation.

 

 

But Olivo was obviously pretty one-dimensional offensively (he's become a bit better, but still K's too much and walks too little), but, most importantly, it seems he didn't really have the faith of the coaching staff and pitchers with his game-calling and leadership/attitude, for whatever reason.

 

Of course, he had that gun for an arm, but there were quite a few posters on Sox boards worried about Reed or even Morse having strong careers, with the idea that while Olivo was the most important piece at the time of the trade, Reed was the one who SOME expected to have a bigger impact as an offensive player because of his Player of the Year season and track record in college.

 

Alexei, at his worst, is Soriano Lite with some bone-headed defense and one of the best bargain contracts in the game (isn't that exactly what we need with declining revenues/attendance to maximize return on investment?)

Edited July 9, 2009 by caulfield12

[greg775]

If Toronto is going to require a package involving Beckham, Danks, Alexei, etc., the Sox should back off. Halladay for $15 million a year for a year and a half would be nice, but I'd rather keep our young, proven talent and just spend that $22 million in free agency.

 

Exactly. You can acquire guys in free agency. It would be dumb to send 5-6 studs to them for Roy.

[Balta1701]

Exactly. You can acquire guys in free agency. It would be dumb to send 5-6 studs to them for Roy.

The odds are you won't get 5-6 studs out of any package you deal. Even if the package wound up including Beckham and the pitchers, the odds are at least 1/3 will be a flat bust, 1 will be pretty good and 1 will be Beckham. If you give up a 4 player package, and all 4 of them wind up succeeding, then that starts ranking up there with the AJ to the Giants deal.

[kristofer]

why would halladay want to come to a team that lost one out of three to the indians?

[caulfield12]

Well, the AJ deal sucks simply because Nathan ended up being an elite closer...Bonser was a serviceable starter for awhile and Liriano was nicknamed "The Franchise" for awhile before getting hurt (now 4-9 with an ERA of almost 6 and seemingly never to be the same pitcher he once was). But giving up three pitchers with that kind of stuff, that's hard to stomach for any organization.

 

Richard and Poreda don't have nearly the type of electric stuff (and yes, I realize Clayton touches mid 90's and can have a really nice change at times) than Nathan, Liriano and even Bonser (from time to time) possessed coming out of the minors.

 

So let's say it was Richard, Poreda, Hudson and ONE more piece...not named Flower/Ramirez/Beckham/Viciedo/Danks 2. The odds of those 3 pitchers (let alone ONE of them) having the impact of either Nathan or Liriano are pretty darned minimal, and even having Boof Bonser's career would be a pleasant surprise for Clayton the way he has looked recently.

Edited July 9, 2009 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

So let's say it was Richard, Poreda, Hudson and ONE more piece...not named Flower/Ramirez/Beckham/Viciedo/Danks 2. The odds of those 3 pitchers (let alone ONE of them) having the impact of either Nathan or Liriano are pretty darned minimal, and even having Boof Bonser's career would be a pleasant surprise for Clayton the way he has looked recently.

The problem is you never know exactly which one is going to have success. Richard has been bad lately, but he's already shown promise in the big leagues even if he has stuff to learn. Ditto Poreda. Hudson looks solid but he's only at AA even if he's moving fast. So it's entirely plausible that 3 years down the road, those 3 guys you traded could be the Jays 123 starters. Or its entirely plausible that none of them could even be on the Jays or anywhere in the big leagues. That's just how it works

[caulfield12]

The problem is you never know exactly which one is going to have success. Richard has been bad lately, but he's already shown promise in the big leagues even if he has stuff to learn. Ditto Poreda. Hudson looks solid but he's only at AA even if he's moving fast. So it's entirely plausible that 3 years down the road, those 3 guys you traded could be the Jays 123 starters. Or its entirely plausible that none of them could even be on the Jays or anywhere in the big leagues. That's just how it works

 

 

But based on our track record developing starters since Mark Buehrle/Garland (he doesn't really count) and what we've seen with our eyeballs over the last couple of seasons with both Poreda (a bit disappointed with his "electric" fastball) and Richard (pleasantly surprised that he seems to have better overall stuff but still not convinced he's even a starter), what would you the say the odds of that happening if KW were to be willing to give up 3 arms like that in a trade? 5%?

 

The only similar trades in his tenure have been trading Gio/DeLos Santos (who was much less advanced, coming off just one dominating A ball season) and of course Wells/Fogg/Lowe for Ritchie (which, if nothing else, taught the GM about what would happen the next 3 seasons without a reliable fifth starter or any starting depth when all the prospects and youngsters like Wright, Barcelo, Parque, Stumm, Rauch, Diaz, Adkins, Myette, Dellaero, Ginter, etc., either didn't pan out or got injured.)

 

I can't think of another trade when he gave up (or was willing to give up) multiple pitching prospects that were A or B tier level in our system.

Edited July 9, 2009 by caulfield12

[CanOfCorn]

Don't know if this has been mentioned, but on ESPN Insider, they said that anyone that wants Halladay has to take Wells. Now, I don't want Wells, but that just dropped the price of getting Doc. If the B-Jays want my team to take on that albatross of a contract, I'm not giving you any of my top 5 in the system. That's just ridiculous.

[WCSox]

The deal imediately becomes worth it if Halladay signs an entension right away.

 

Halladay is 32 and has a lot of innings on his arm. There's a lot of risk there.

 

[Steve9347]

Halladay is 32 and has a lot of innings on his arm. There's a lot of risk there.

This isn't the era of steroids anymore either. Expecting him to be at this level for much longer is asinine. The Blue Jays would be extremely smart to deal him right now.

[SoxFan562004]

If you have to take Wells, then I think he may go to and the Jays would be willing to send him to the NYY or Bos. In the long run they might figure they're better off with the money from Wells and the players they get. I don't see many teams who can take on both those contracts. Maybe LAA too.

[Pumpkin Escobar]

Alexie, Poreda and Flowers and a couple of single a prospects for Halladay and Rolen and I say the Blue Jays pull the trigger.

 

 

I don't do that deal. The point of acquiring someone during the season is to make you better. Losing Alexi and Poreda while adding Halladay to the team isn't a huge boast when you're talking about a guy who is only going to make 9-10 starts. Even if he goes Cy Sabathia on us like last season with CC in Milwaukee, I dont think its enough.

 

You make those kind of deals to add a huge help to your team not add and subtract.

 

I understand you have to give a little to get something but you don't have to get anything if it's too expensive. Which ultimately this scenario is.

 

The other can of worms you have to avoid when you do stuff like this is the whole "untouchable" player.

 

If we called the Giants lets say about Cain (Lincecum may be too good for the example). They'd say he is off limits knowing that we probably wanted to move prospects for him and no deal that would be considered even is worth it to them with just straight prospects.

 

Now if you said Alexi or CQ and prospects are - they'd probably be more inclined to listen.

 

So there is no reason to go take a guy like Alexi, who is one of our better players and just throw him into the Halladay deal because they want a SS. If you're going to put him in a deal - you better make sure someone else is willing to pay more for that price. Which is why players get labeled untouchable. Because there is too much out there.

 

This Halladay thing will become a dead issue. The Phillies are either going to pony their prospects or even Milwaukee/LAA...but if they dont, and he is sitting there on the deadline with riccardi's bluff being called - we could see him moved for much less then we think.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Pumpkin Escobar

[SoxFan562004]

every now and then the Hawk says something worth listening too, it was about Halladay and he said (paraphrasing here a little) 25-40 years ago you never traded a good position player who will give you around 30 hr and around 100 rbis for a guy who is going to give you 20+ wins as a starter (if someone remember the exact numbers he said please post).

 

I think generally I agree with him. For me, especially with how well Gavin, MB and Danks have pitched recentally, I would be hesitant to support a trade that depleted the farm system and/or Alexei for Doc at this point

[caulfield12]

And trading Ramirez makes much less sense 1) because of his super-affordable, bargain contract status for the now more budget-conscious Sox AND 2) nobody really knows for sure how well Beckham could handle the position over an entire season, compared to 2B.

 

There's a lot more depth at every position in our organization than SS...although I suppose we could now push things a bit and consider Nix as someone capable of playing it defensively, but hitting everyday against lefties and righties? MAYBE.

[DBAHO]

Don't know if this has been mentioned, but on ESPN Insider, they said that anyone that wants Halladay has to take Wells. Now, I don't want Wells, but that just dropped the price of getting Doc. If the B-Jays want my team to take on that albatross of a contract, I'm not giving you any of my top 5 in the system. That's just ridiculous.

I'm not surprised Riccardi is going down that line.

 

Toronto's got payroll / attendance issues ATM so if he's going to sell his best asset, he may as well try to dump a bad contract on another team also.

 

Whether or not it works, well that's the question.

 

Not a lot of teams would be interested in taking on Wells' contract I would think.

[caulfield12]

Would much rather take Rios' contract and give up more than an aging Wells, whose contract dwarfs Michael Young and some of the Cubs' long-term deals in stupidity factor.

 

 

As far as Halladay, look at the discrepancy in attendance for his home starts. It might be the biggest of any single player (certainly pitcher, which is easier to measure and more obvious) in all of baseball. Trading Halladay probably DOESN'T make sense short-term economically, but does long-term if they end up with a much better overall team (think the Herschel Walker trade for the Cowboys) that can legitimately compete with TB/NYY/BOS.

Edited July 10, 2009 by caulfield12

[chisoxfan09]

Would much rather take Rios' contract and give up more than an aging Wells, whose contract dwarfs Michael Young and some of the Cubs' long-term deals in stupidity factor.

 

 

As far as Halladay, look at the discrepancy in attendance for his home starts. It might be the biggest of any single player (certainly pitcher, which is easier to measure and more obvious) in all of baseball. Trading Halladay probably DOESN'T make sense short-term economically, but does long-term if they end up with a much better overall team (think the Herschel Walker trade for the Cowboys) that can legitimately compete with TB/NYY/BOS.

 

That is another factor and why fans on most BJay boards are goin nuts over losing him (Like we would over Buerhle??). He is literally the face of the franchise. But many ar also saying quite rightly that he has paid his dues and deserves a WS ring before he hangs it up.

[southsider2k5]

http://www.examiner.com/x-5758-Chicago-Spo...or-Roy-Halladay

 

If you're a White Sox Fan, picture a rotation of Halladay, Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, and Contreras. I would take that rotation over any other in baseball today. Clayton Richard could be moved to the bullpen, and be an emergency starter.

 

The way I understand it, Halladay is due about $7 million the rest of this year, and $15 million next year on the final year of his deal. He also would have to ok any trade. The 2009 White Sox payroll is around $96 million. In 2008 it was over $120 million. Attendance would probably take a jump if Halladay comes to the Sox. The money should be there to make the deal. So are the players.

 

The White Sox could offer a package of Alexei Ramirez, Aaron Poreda, and 1 from a group of John Shelby, Brian Anderson, Cole Armstrong, Josh Fields, or another midrange prospect to get Halladay. With Gordon Beckham, Jayson Nix, and Chris Getz, the Sox would have a young infield. But Alexei hasn't shown leadership at the shortstop position, and appears to really shy away from contact when trying to turn the double play. The White Sox would need to pick up an inexpensive veteran utility infielder if they make this deal.

 

Aaron Poreda is the guy who might really be missed down the road if he were included in a trade for Halladay. Poreda is a lefty with a great arm. He has the ability to throw in the high 90's, and has star potential. But the Sox already have lefties Buehrle and Danks in their rotation, with Richard in reserve.

 

The White Sox have a pretty deep minor league system right now, even with this year's draft picks not included. Position players are led by Jordan Danks, Tyler Flowers, and Dyan Viciedo. Starting pitchers Carlos Torres, Jack Egbert, John Ely, and Lucas Harrell also have potential. The minor leagues would be far from bare if this trade is made.

 

Kenny Williams has shown he won't back down if a star player is available who could help the White Sox win. This trade makes sense, and also makes the Sox championship contenders. Let's see if it happens.

 

Comments can be left here, or contact me at [email protected]. My twitter id is tcrowntom.

[Chisoxfn]

http://www.examiner.com/x-5758-Chicago-Spo...or-Roy-Halladay

That would be a no brainer of a deal, but one the Jays wouldn't do or at least I doubt they'd do it.

[SoxFan1]

I really don't think it'd be a wise idea to move Alexei, not for Halladay at least. I understand moving Beckham to SS, but then we'd have to play Fields or maybe Nix at 3rd? I wouldn't be upset if it happened, but I don't know if it's the right move in our situation.

[Chisoxfn]

I really don't think it'd be a wise idea to move Alexei, not for Halladay at least. I understand moving Beckham to SS, but then we'd have to play Fields or maybe Nix at 3rd?

Temp fix and in the off-season you sign Figgins to play 3B until the Cuban tank slides over there.

[SoxAce]

Temp fix and in the off-season you sign Figgins to play 3B until the Cuban tank slides over there.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

Though I still think Fields get too much hate here.

[SoxFan1]

Temp fix and in the off-season you sign Figgins to play 3B until the Cuban tank slides over there.

That makes a lot of sense actually. So for this year we'd be looking at:

 

Pods LF

Beckham SS

Dye RF

Thome DH

Konerko 1B

Pierzynski C

Nix 3B

Getz 2B

Anderson CF

 

and if/when Quentin returns, probably:

 

Pods CF

Beckham SS

Dye RF

Thome DH

Konerko 1B

Quentin LF

Pierzynski C

Nix 3B

Getz 2b

[Chisoxfn]

I'd try to pick up Uribe or someone of that ilk to be a nice defensive utility guy as well but I doubt the Giants would be moving him.