YASNY Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 QUOTE (maki @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 08:05 AM) Cowley was also on the Score this morning saying the deal did not include Beckham and this was the reason the Jays balked. Sounds like both GM's were smart. KW for not offering him, and Riccardi for wanting him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatScott82 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 QUOTE (YASNY @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 08:09 AM) Sounds like both GM's were smart. KW for not offering him, and Riccardi for wanting him. Thank you KW for not being over aggressive. The Mets are smart for not giving up on FMart and were smart to not give up on Beckham. Toronto is at a disadvantage because due to the economy teams are more reluctant to give you their young cheap players than ever before. It will be rare if you see a Santana, Sabathia or Bedard type deal where the other team recieves top prospects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 09:56 PM) I think Kenny is invested on trading virtually every single prospect we have in our system for players he has long coveted, especially those who have at one time had success in the AFL. Once a prospect gets here however, Kenny will say that he was protecting said player and wouldn't have moved him unless he had gotten a significant package in return. What prospect has he traded that you want back? So far the younger players he has traded for GOOD major league talent have all been underwhelming for the most part. Thats just good GM-ing, selling high for proven talent. Its clear our system is now starting to produce good players that can actually perform at the major league level, which is why he is invested in keeping said players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maki Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Sounds like Riccardi's main concern is one player must be your top prospect, no matter what position, then you go from there. Seems fairly arbitrary given the differing talent across clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 QUOTE (maki @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 08:53 AM) Sounds like Riccardi's main concern is one player must be your top prospect, no matter what position, then you go from there. Seems fairly arbitrary given the differing talent across clubs. I'd say it sounds more like he's trying to get a top 15 or so guy in baseball as a key piece of whatever comes back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisoxfan09 Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 Sounds like Riccardi's main concern is one player must be your top prospect, no matter what position, then you go from there. Seems fairly arbitrary given the differing talent across clubs. Yeah, and this is the hilarious bit. He is so full of crap JR will be laughing all the way to the bank. He is really badly hamstrung by those 2 monstrous and terribly horrible contracts he gave Rios and Wells for years to come and Doc does way more qualitative production. Anyway we are right to balk at including our future superstar. I will keep saying it, do not mortgage the farm for 1.5 years of Doc no matter how good he is. Especially at the ridiculously pathetic demands Ricciardi is making. They will wallow in 4th/5th place for years to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkin Escobar Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I am curious what offers they have received. I always find it a bit ridiculous or stubborn even when a GM or team ends up hanging onto their player and losing him to FA. Obviously this deadline for Halladay is a bluff. I think our offer is floating up there - below the Phillies potential offers and maybe someone elses. If they hold on Halladay - theyll get even less. Right now they can get a package of 4 very talented guys I'd say. You keep him and try to deal him next year - you'll get 1-2 and then some throw ins. You let him walk - well you may get a 1st rounder or some supplementals for him depending on where he signs. This whole "I want the world" thing is for the birds. People keep comparing the hauls Bedard and Tex got. That was more or less better scouting on the Rangers and Baltimores part...Guys like Miggy landed 2 very good players but not 4-5 good ones. I think once Ricciardi realizes he isn't getting that kind of package - we may have a shot at him. Take out the top flight prospect and our package could look very interesting to Jays. Problem is - if you remove that top flight prospect, a team like Boston who is loaded could swoop in and take him without putting in their Bucholz. Tough spot. I say if Halladay isn't dealt - Ricciardi needs to go. Just dumb things he's done up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisoxfan09 Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 I am curious what offers they have received. I always find it a bit ridiculous or stubborn even when a GM or team ends up hanging onto their player and losing him to FA. Obviously this deadline for Halladay is a bluff. I think our offer is floating up there - below the Phillies potential offers and maybe someone elses. If they hold on Halladay - theyll get even less. Right now they can get a package of 4 very talented guys I'd say. You keep him and try to deal him next year - you'll get 1-2 and then some throw ins. You let him walk - well you may get a 1st rounder or some supplementals for him depending on where he signs. This whole "I want the world" thing is for the birds. People keep comparing the hauls Bedard and Tex got. That was more or less better scouting on the Rangers and Baltimores part...Guys like Miggy landed 2 very good players but not 4-5 good ones. I think once Ricciardi realizes he isn't getting that kind of package - we may have a shot at him. Take out the top flight prospect and our package could look very interesting to Jays. Problem is - if you remove that top flight prospect, a team like Boston who is loaded could swoop in and take him without putting in their Bucholz. Tough spot. I say if Halladay isn't dealt - Ricciardi needs to go. Just dumb things he's done up there. Dude you are 100% on the "DUMB THINGS" comment. Man he has got those 2 monstrous sandbags (Rios and Wells contracts) just tied around his neck choking him down every day more and more. Way overpaying Wells and not Doc has easily got to be the biggest boneheaded blunder Ricciardi has commited up to now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Heyman's twitter: SI_JonHeymanaggressive #brewers look like threat for halladay. hearing manny parra's name. but wouldnt escobar/ gamel have to go too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 QUOTE (Brian @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 09:25 AM) SI_JonHeymanaggressive #brewers look like threat for halladay. hearing manny parra's name. but wouldnt escobar/ gamel have to go too? They wouldn't get him without one of those 2. But the Brewers do already have Hardy at SS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkin Escobar Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 11:27 AM) They wouldn't get him without one of those 2. But the Brewers do already have Hardy at SS. They should be able to get him no questions asked but I bet theyre reserved after dumping guys last year in Sabathia only to come up empty for their WS title. I am not sure if they'll deal Escobar if they dont have to. I wonder if they can build a package around Parra, Hardy, Salome and whatever else. I doubt it works w/o having Gamel and Escobar but they would really be asking for trouble dealing those kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 The Brewers should trade Escobar when his value is high. I've seen him play a handful of times, and he seems like nothing more than a weak hitting, slick fielding SS. You might as well trade for Caesar Izturis then. The Brewers only have a few more years left with the Fielder/Braun dynamic duo, so they really should go after Halladay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkin Escobar Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 QUOTE (chisoxfan09 @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 11:20 AM) Dude you are 100% on the "DUMB THINGS" comment. Man he has got those 2 monstrous sandbags (Rios and Wells contracts) just tied around his neck choking him down every day more and more. Way overpaying Wells and not Doc has easily got to be the biggest boneheaded blunder Ricciardi has commited up to now. Everything he does. He has been in charge there for 8 years with nothing to show for it. He only got the job because of his ties (and very minimal) to moneyball. Don't forget he was the guy who gave Burnett 5/55 a couple years back when it was pretty much still uncommon especially for a guy with so much of an injury history. Then when Burnett was hurt too much - he blamed him. As if he couldnt see what was coming. This among other amounts of money the guy has thrown around like Wells and Rios also - all after saying he could decrease payroll for them when he took the job. Everyone else didn't get the gig because they wanted more funds to compete with NY. And Boston for that matter. He trashed Adam Dunn on radio either this past offseason or during last season. Probably kicking himself for that since it wasnt his place and he couldve used that kind of bat. I'm pretty sure he ripped Wells leading up to him signing the contract. I think that is why he gave him so much because he regretted it and Wells was quoted as saying he wanted to leave. He ripped Keith Law - who was his former assistant. He makes horrible trades over and over. Then he has this - gift wrapped for him - a 33 year old, 1.5 year contract and he is holding out for a ridiculous offer. He is just retarded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 11:49 AM) The Brewers should trade Escobar when his value is high. I've seen him play a handful of times, and he seems like nothing more than a weak hitting, slick fielding SS. You might as well trade for Caesar Izturis then. The Brewers only have a few more years left with the Fielder/Braun dynamic duo, so they really should go after Halladay. How does that translate with 1 year of Halladay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 06:02 PM) How does that translate with 1 year of Halladay? Might as well try to win the whole thing this year or next year. Fielder's going to be so expensive in a year or two, and Braun will be expensive soon after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bighurt574 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) Toronto is going to have to come down or they won't find a trade partner. Halladay's trade value is really only the difference between his market value and what's left on his contract. In this economy, that's certainly something, but it's not enough to cause a team to gut its future for 1.5 years of an ace pitcher on a $15 million/year contract. When you take their respective contracts into account, I fail to see how Halladay's trade value is all that different from Peavy's -- Halladay is probably the better pitcher, but Peavy is under control for another year. Edited July 22, 2009 by bighurt574 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearSox Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) I think the Brewers should definitely trade one of Gamel or Escobar. Both have a ton of value around the league, but I have trouble seeing either of them becoming anything more than just decent ball players. Actually, I can see Escobar becoming a right handed version of Juan Pierre offensively, which isn't bad at all, especially considering he'd be playing good D at a premium position. I think Gamel would be the most logical to trade. He doesn't have a position yet (he's not very good at 3B from what I've heard, LF is occupied, can he play RF?, and is his bat good enough to play 1B?), and he hasn't wowed me when I've seen him at bat. He looks decent up there, but he doesn't look like a dangerous hitter. He kind of reminds me of Teahen. Edited July 22, 2009 by BearSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkin Escobar Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 QUOTE (BearSox @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 12:14 PM) I think the Brewers should definitely trade one of Gamel or Escobar. Both have a ton of value around the league, but I have trouble seeing either of them becoming anything more than just decent ball players. Actually, I can see Escobar becoming a right handed version of Juan Pierre offensively, which isn't bad at all, especially considering he'd be playing good D at a premium position. I think Gamel would be the most logical to trade. He doesn't have a position yet (he's not very good at 3B from what I've heard, LF is occupied, can he play RF?, and is his bat good enough to play 1B?), and he hasn't wowed me when I've seen him at bat. He looks decent up there, but he doesn't look like a dangerous hitter. He kind of reminds me of Teahen. I think Gamel is just taking time. I see a lot of promise in him offensively. The defensive thing is another story. Escobar may not turn into anything more then a 2 category offensive player and a defensive wizard but for a team who would want to keep Fielder, Braun, Gallardo and even Hart - theyll need to save money somewhere. Hardy would be a good starting point to move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 It took what, 10 minutes from when this thread was moved for another Halladay thread to appear in PHT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILMOU Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 QUOTE (Pumpkin Escobar @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 10:46 AM) They should be able to get him no questions asked but I bet theyre reserved after dumping guys last year in Sabathia only to come up empty for their WS title. They made the playoffs for the first time in 26 YEARS!!! Few Brewer fans would say the Sabbathia deal wasn't worth the cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkin Escobar Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 01:15 PM) They made the playoffs for the first time in 26 YEARS!!! Few Brewer fans would say the Sabbathia deal wasn't worth the cost. Mmm true - definitely at the time they were happy but most people want to actually win the whole thing. I'd imagine moreso when you deal your top prospect and not sign the guy you dealt for who carried you into those same playoffs. I actually have a Brewers fan who is a good college buddy of mine and he loved it. Now they have what? Memories of making the playoffs, no sabathia, no LaPorta and no Brantley. Pretty sure finishing in the final 4 wasnt their main goal. Edited July 22, 2009 by Pumpkin Escobar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 QUOTE (Pumpkin Escobar @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 12:05 PM) Mmm true - definitely at the time they were happy but most people want to actually win the whole thing. I'd imagine moreso when you deal your top prospect and not sign the guy you dealt for who carried you into those same playoffs. It depends on what you would be doing with the guy you dealt. Look at LaPorta. For the Brewers, he was an LF for one, and they have a pretty decent one currently. They're also developing another RF (Gamel). LaPorta's potentially moving to 1b with Cleveland, and they have another 1b in Milwaukee who is pretty good as well. LaPorta's hitting great at AAA but struggled big time when he came up to the tribe as well, so he may be a multi-year development project, which again, is something the Brewers don't have time for right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkin Escobar Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 02:24 PM) It depends on what you would be doing with the guy you dealt. Look at LaPorta. For the Brewers, he was an LF for one, and they have a pretty decent one currently. They're also developing another RF (Gamel). LaPorta's potentially moving to 1b with Cleveland, and they have another 1b in Milwaukee who is pretty good as well. LaPorta's hitting great at AAA but struggled big time when he came up to the tribe as well, so he may be a multi-year development project, which again, is something the Brewers don't have time for right now. Well LaPorta is more ready then Gamel in my opinion. both have great bats but in the pecking order - thats just how I think it is viewed. I don't think he is as long as a project as you think. I think he'll be up this year and playing very next season. Maybe I am wrong but college hitters with his kind of bat shouldn't take much longer if theyre going to figure it out. LaPorta had a small sample and he is still hitting very well in AAA - in fact, I just saw something on him about the Indians looking to bring him back up and "turn him loose" I believe was the quote in the article. Need to find where I saw that though. It was literally today. Regardless of him not being ready or whatever - it could've changed a million things for them this season. They could've moved Hart for pitching or whatever. Just hypothetically speaking of course. I don't fault their efforts or their move so much as I don't know how much Brewers fans are willing to invest in this scenario again - especially with it costing much more then just one prospect this time only to see the club let the guy walk in a year. If they win the Series - all is worth it. But I am sorry - I dont care if its a 50 year draught, making the playoffs is an accomplishment - not the goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilmot825 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Who did the Sox offer to the Jays that Toronto said no Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkin Escobar Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 QUOTE (wilmot825 @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 02:52 PM) Who did the Sox offer to the Jays that Toronto said no No Clue but I am assuming it was the Peavy package with maybe the addition of a Fields. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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