Halladay Superthread

[Jordan4life_2007]

I would give up Richard and Poreda combined, or something along those lines. For a guy Halladay's age and only signed for 1.5 years I won't go beyond that. I'd only igve up 2 of the guys you list, and I wouldn't go for Beckham or Danks, and Flowers going would only happen on the condition that he's the only major piece from the top levels of the minors. If I had a scout or two saying there was some reason to undervalue one of those guys then that could change my thinking, but quite simply, even if all we get is an adequate back of the rotation starter from Richard, a very good bullpen part from Poreda, and average production from Allen, those 3 guys at minimal cost for 6+ years is worth a hell of a lot more than 1.5 years of Halladay unless you guarantee he wins you the world series this year, and no one can guarantee that.

 

If the two best players in a package for Halladay you'd be willing to part with are Richard and Poreda then it's safe to say you're in the pass camp. Because the Blue Jays would point, laugh, give us the finger, ect, if we low-balled them with an offer like that. But I don't even believe he's available. So this is all moot.

[SoxFanForever]

This post belongs here also.

Great post. I can't think of any top stud super prospect the Sox have traded away in the last 5 years that has turned into anything we miss.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Great post. I can't think of any top stud super prospect the Sox have traded away in the last 5 years that has turned into anything we miss.

 

I think we're latching on to some of these guys a little too tightly (is that a word?) due to the fact our farm has been so horrendous most of this decade. I mean it was just 2-3 years ago our top prospects were Lance Broadway, Kyle McCulloch, Charles Haeger, Ryan Sweeney, Jerry Owens, Robert Valdio and Ray Liotta.

[Balta1701]

I think we're latching on to some of these guys a little too tightly (is that a word?) due to the fact our farm has been so horrendous most of this decade. I mean it was just 2-3 years ago our top prospects were Lance Broadway, Kyle McCulloch, Charles Haeger, Ryan Sweeney, Jerry Owens, Robert Valdio and Ray Liotta.

The failure of some guys doesn't mean that Beckham and Viciedo and Allen and Poreda and Richard are going to fail as well.

[Jordan4life_2007]

The failure of some guys doesn't mean that Beckham and Viciedo and Allen and Poreda and Richard are going to fail as well.

 

I understand that. I'm not trying to say because most have failed that our current crop will fail. But I think we're overrating a few of these guys (especially Danks and Flowers).

[fathom]

I understand that. I'm not trying to say because most have failed that our current crop will fail. But I think we're overrating a few of these guys (especially Danks and Flowers).

 

I agree, I think Danks is severely overrated on this site (and I'm probably the only person disappointed in Viciedo's season so far this year). I think Flowers can be a Mike Napoli type catcher for the Sox.

 

BTW, has anyone seen what teams are possibly willing to offer for Javy in a trade now? KW better pray that Flowers pans out.

Edited July 6, 2009 by fathom

[SoxFanForever]

I agree, I think Danks is severely overrated on this site (and I'm probably the only person disappointed in Viciedo's season so far this year). I think Flowers can be a Mike Napoli type catcher for the Sox.

 

BTW, has anyone seen what teams are possibly willing to offer for Javy in a trade now? KW better pray that Flowers pans out.

If Flowers could turn into a Napoli-lite I would be thrilled with him.

 

Also, I'm not saying that because of our past prospects being busts that all future ones will be. I'm just saying that saying you don't want to trade some of these guys for one of the top pitchers in the AL is silly. I'd definitely want to hold on to Beckham and Flowers. However, just about any of the rest would be fair game.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I agree, I think Danks is severely overrated on this site (and I'm probably the only person disappointed in Viciedo's season so far this year). I think Flowers can be a Mike Napoli type catcher for the Sox.

 

BTW, has anyone seen what teams are possibly willing to offer for Javy in a trade now? KW better pray that Flowers pans out.

 

Flowers prospect status 100% hinges on him sticking at catcher. And what are teams offering for Javy? I must admit he's having a f***ing outstanding season. I knew he'd be a lot better in that park and that league. But if he had a few more wins, he might be a legitimate CY candidate.

[fathom]

Flowers prospect status 100% hinges on him sticking at catcher. And what are teams offering for Javy? I must admit he's having a f***ing outstanding season. I knew he'd be a lot better in that park and that league. But if he had a few more wins, he might be a legitimate CY candidate.

 

Supposedly Brewers would have parted with C. Hart for Vazquez. I really don't think Braves should be sellers though, as they have a chance to be something when they get healthy .

[Jordan4life_2007]

Supposedly Brewers would have parted with C. Hart for Vazquez. I really don't think Braves should be sellers though, as they have a chance to be something when they get healthy .

 

I'd love that for the Brewers.

[qwerty]

Prospects are suspects until proven otherwise. There is no debate. The odds are severely in our favor that everyone in the white sox top ten prospect list with will not pan out to be even league average players (just not realistic whatsoever), let alone studs which we will never be able to win a game again without, like some are led to believe. Proven commodities >>> a maybe, might, ought to be... every day of the week.

 

Anyone can be moved, in any sport, at any time, if the situation and a particular teams needs call for it.

[knightni]

Proven commodities >>> a maybe, might, ought to be... every day of the week.

 

Anyone can be moved, in any sport, at any time, if the situation and a particular teams needs call for it.

True. But at 33, Toronto won't get as much for Halladay as they would have if he was 28.

[qwerty]

True. But at 33, Toronto won't get as much for Halladay as they would have if he was 28.

 

He is one of the two best pitchers in the major leagues, it's between him and johan. They can get quite the haul regardless.

[Balta1701]

He is one of the two best pitchers in the major leagues, it's between him and johan. They can get quite the haul regardless.

That's an interesting comparison. Santana was younger, closer to FA and therefore about to be more expensive, but also at the top of his game and in his prime years as opposed to at the back end of them. Here's what the Mets gave up for him:

 

In return for Santana, the Twins would receive center fielder Carlos Gomez and pitchers Phil Humber, Kevin Mulvey and Deolis Guerra

 

Humber was coming off a season where he put up a 4.27 ERA and 1.24 WHIP for the Mets AAA team, and a 7.71 ERA in a few shots with the big league mets. Gomez had a 1/2 season in AAA in 07 with a .777 OPS, and put up a .592 OPS in the big leagues. He did so at age 21, so he was considered a potential growth projection. Mulvey and Guerra were potentially projectable guys; Mulvey's been hanging around the minors for a couple years now, and Guerra was dealt out of high-A ball. They were at the time the Mets #2,3,4 and 7 prospects, but a lot of people thought it at best an adequate package for a guy like Santana.

 

Richard and Poreda together have already done as much or more in the major leagues than what the guys the Mets gave up for Santana have done. Richard, Poreda, and someone with talent from the A-ball levels is about an equivalent deal, quite frankly.

[beck72]

I'd trade Poreda, Richard and Flowers for Halliday easy. If they want more, I'd throw in Getz or Fields if they're interested. If they insist on adding Allen, I'd do it but would want something else coming back.

Flowers is more valuable than Allen. Flowers should be right up there with Beckham as far as being off the trading block.

[caulfield12]

I agree, I think Danks is severely overrated on this site (and I'm probably the only person disappointed in Viciedo's season so far this year). I think Flowers can be a Mike Napoli type catcher for the Sox.

 

BTW, has anyone seen what teams are possibly willing to offer for Javy in a trade now? KW better pray that Flowers pans out.

 

Having Viciedo under our control for 6 years makes that contract a lot let stressful...he might not turn out to be Miguel Cabrera, but he seems to be a run producer...and the power was never a question about him until he started playing in BIRM.

 

Sure, an 800 OPS instead of around 650+ would be much nicer, but if you bring in enough guys like Mitchell, Danks, Viciedo and A. Chapman, some of them will end up being All-Stars eventually.

 

To hear Harrelson speak, Flowers is expected by him to hit 30-40 homers on a consistent basis every year, Mike Piazza type numbers (V. Martinez/Mauer, production levels etc.).

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

Having Viciedo under our control for 6 years makes that contract a lot let stressful...he might not turn out to be Miguel Cabrera, but he seems to be a run producer...and the power was never a question about him until he started playing in BIRM.

 

Sure, an 800 OPS instead of around 650+ would be much nicer, but if you bring in enough guys like Mitchell, Danks, Viciedo and A. Chapman, some of them will end up being All-Stars eventually.

 

?

 

 

[sam785]

haha, BJays. But, yeah, it would be great to add Halladay to our already great rotation.

[Dick Allen]

Having Viciedo under our control for 6 years makes that contract a lot let stressful...he might not turn out to be Miguel Cabrera, but he seems to be a run producer...and the power was never a question about him until he started playing in BIRM.

 

Sure, an 800 OPS instead of around 650+ would be much nicer, but if you bring in enough guys like Mitchell, Danks, Viciedo and A. Chapman, some of them will end up being All-Stars eventually.

 

To hear Harrelson speak, Flowers is expected by him to hit 30-40 homers on a consistent basis every year, Mike Piazza type numbers (V. Martinez/Mauer, production levels etc.).

Viciedo is only 20, but a .650 OPS in AA has to be dissappointing, considering many thought he would be a major leaguer this year. His 20 errors are alarming as well. I'm not panicked about him, but I think the White Sox hoped he'd be a little closer to major league ready by now considering the cash layout for him. I think he's going to be getting a position change soon. Hopefully he can be El Caballo II.

[caulfield12]

?

 

If we acquired/bought the best Cuban pitcher to come along since Contreras, and one with a much higher upside due to his age.

[Dick Allen]

If we acquired/bought the best Cuban pitcher to come along since Contreras, and one with a much higher upside due to his age.

Supposedly his price tag is $30-60 million. I'm thinking the Sox stay out of that one. Maybe they trade for him in a couple years after he struggles with the Yankees and get NY to pick up some of the rest of his contract. I don't see JR approving that kind of expenditure right now.

[fathom]

Viciedo is only 20, but a .650 OPS in AA has to be dissappointing, considering many thought he would be a major leaguer this year. His 20 errors are alarming as well. I'm not panicked about him, but I think the White Sox hoped he'd be a little closer to major league ready by now considering the cash layout for him. I think he's going to be getting a position change soon. Hopefully he can be El Caballo II.

 

If he can be C. Lee Part Two, I'll be thrilled. Many might not like the way he went about it, but Lee has had a hell of a career with regards to offensive production.

[caulfield12]

If he can be C. Lee Part Two, I'll be thrilled. Many might not like the way he went about it, but Lee has had a hell of a career with regards to offensive production.

 

C-Lee definitely had a huge payday, and we got Pods and cleared the way for all of our under the radar moves that led to the World Series title.

 

Good for both sides, and El Caballo doesn't strike me as one of those players exceedingly distraught over not getting a ring. Always has been more of a me-first player from everything I've seen and read.

 

Sometimes when you clear a Jimenez/Lofton here, a Sheffield there (Tigers), it's addition by subtraction. Same thing with Swisher over the long haul.

[Dick Allen]

C-Lee definitely had a huge payday, and we got Pods and cleared the way for all of our under the radar moves that led to the World Series title.

 

Good for both sides, and El Caballo doesn't strike me as one of those players exceedingly distraught over not getting a ring. Always has been more of a me-first player from everything I've seen and read.

 

Sometimes when you clear a Jimenez/Lofton here, a Sheffield there (Tigers), it's addition by subtraction. Same thing with Swisher over the long haul.

If Houston, a team that was in the WS in 2005 offered you the same contract they offered CLee, and you were the same player, you wouldn't take it? I can't blame a guy for taking $100 million. I would assume Houston at that time had just as much of a chance to win as anyone else. Its like the people who ripped ARod for signing with Texas saying he was about the money and not the ring. No other team offered a contract to ARod at that time within $100 million of the one he signed. He would have been a fool not take it. I heard Rick Sutcliffe rip ARod for signing it. The same Rick Sutcliffe that moaned his way out of LA and Cleveland when he played because of money and it certainly wasn't the type of money ARod would have left on the table.

[iamshack]

Supposedly his price tag is $30-60 million. I'm thinking the Sox stay out of that one. Maybe they trade for him in a couple years after he struggles with the Yankees and get NY to pick up some of the rest of his contract. I don't see JR approving that kind of expenditure right now.

 

Well that depends. $30 million is a lot different than $60 million.

 

If the guy can be had for $30-40 million, I think you do your homework, and if you're comfortable, you sign him. Between the success of Jose and Alexei, and hopefully Viciedo down the road, I think Jerry could get comfortable with making that sort of commitment. Considering the contracts starting pitchers have been getting recently, it's not as big of a risk as it might initially appear. If you're truly confident he can pitch in this league, you go ahead and ink that deal.