Halladay Superthread

[caulfield12]

If Houston, a team that was in the WS in 2005 offered you the same contract they offered CLee, and you were the same player, you wouldn't take it? I can't blame a guy for taking $100 million. I would assume Houston at that time had just as much of a chance to win as anyone else. Its like the people who ripped ARod for signing with Texas saying he was about the money and not the ring. No other team offered a contract to ARod at that time within $100 million of the one he signed. He would have been a fool not take it. I heard Rick Sutcliffe rip ARod for signing it. The same Rick Sutcliffe that moaned his way out of LA and Cleveland when he played because of money and it certainly wasn't the type of money ARod would have left on the table.

 

 

I just think of Lee as a player like Albert Belle (although not nearly as potent) whose numbers don't quite equate to wins and losses...just don't perceive him as the type of player who's dying after every loss. Of course, the same rap has been thrown at the likes of Colon (2003), Javy, Garland, Frank Thomas, Ordonez, etc.

[BearSox]

Viciedo is only 20, but a .650 OPS in AA has to be dissappointing, considering many thought he would be a major leaguer this year. His 20 errors are alarming as well. I'm not panicked about him, but I think the White Sox hoped he'd be a little closer to major league ready by now considering the cash layout for him. I think he's going to be getting a position change soon. Hopefully he can be El Caballo II.

 

I believe JPN said Viciedo has been really good defensively at 3B for the past month+

 

I would hold of on the position change talk right. Obviously, he has been a disappointment this year, but I'll take it. I've said it before, I think 2010 will be a really huge, break out year for him.

[BearSox]

Supposedly his price tag is $30-60 million. I'm thinking the Sox stay out of that one. Maybe they trade for him in a couple years after he struggles with the Yankees and get NY to pick up some of the rest of his contract. I don't see JR approving that kind of expenditure right now.

 

I'll be shocked if he gets more than 20.

[southsider2k5]

I'll be shocked if he gets more than 20.

 

If he really is anything near what the stories are, you will be shocked by a factor of at least two.

[caulfield12]

I believe JPN said Viciedo has been really good defensively at 3B for the past month+

 

I would hold of on the position change talk right. Obviously, he has been a disappointment this year, but I'll take it. I've said it before, I think 2010 will be a really huge, break out year for him.

 

 

Looks like Viciedo is hitting an early "wall" like Ramirez did late in 2008. Retherford has really tailed off, too. Taking out Beckham and Allen changes the composition and potency of that line-up dramatically, even though it's still a REALLY strong one.

 

Much longer, grinding season...of course, the weather in the SL is pretty comparable to Cuba, but playing 140+ games is with top quality pitching every day is an adjustment.

 

He was almost at a 700 OPS and has fallen off a bit in the last couple of weeks, but he still manages to produce a ton of RBI's.

 

Gartrell might become a prospect after this season is over, although he's a little old at 25...but certainly much younger than Cook.

[Rowand44]

For me, anybody in our minor leagues and also Aaron Poreda are fair game in a trade for Halladay. Halladay right away makes this team a legit World Series contender and that's something I'm willing to take a chance on.

[BearSox]

Supposedly Brewers would have parted with C. Hart for Vazquez. I really don't think Braves should be sellers though, as they have a chance to be something when they get healthy .

 

Is Corey Hart suppossed to be a good package? I'll take Flowers, Gilmore, etc. over Hart anyday.

 

Hart is solid, a 20-20 player, but I haven't been wowed by him at all. The only way that would make sense for the Braves is if the Brewers took on the whole contract, as Hart isn't expensive, is he? And he'd be a definite upgrade over Francoeur.

 

But the guy I think Atlanta should be trying to sell high on is Escobar, IMO. I used to like him, but he has soured on me over the past year plus. I agree they should hang onto to Vazquez. If they had some offense, Vazquez could be a serious cy young contender in the NL.

[BearSox]

Looks like Viciedo is hitting an early "wall" like Ramirez did late in 2008. Retherford has really tailed off, too. Taking out Beckham and Allen changes the composition and potency of that line-up dramatically, even though it's still a REALLY strong one.

 

Much longer, grinding season...of course, the weather in the SL is pretty comparable to Cuba, but playing 140+ games is with top quality pitching every day is an adjustment.

 

He was almost at a 700 OPS and has fallen off a bit in the last couple of weeks, but he still manages to produce a ton of RBI's.

 

Gartrell might become a prospect after this season is over, although he's a little old at 25...but certainly much younger than Cook.

 

I wouldn't mind selling high on Gartrell. He seems decent, but I don't think he'll ever become anything more than a platoon OF.

[caulfield12]

Is Corey Hart suppossed to be a good package? I'll take Flowers, Gilmore, etc. over Hart anyday.

 

Hart is solid, a 20-20 player, but I haven't been wowed by him at all. The only way that would make sense for the Braves is if the Brewers took on the whole contract, as Hart isn't expensive, is he? And he'd be a definite upgrade over Francoeur.

 

But the guy I think Atlanta should be trying to sell high on is Escobar, IMO. I used to like him, but he has soured on me over the past year plus. I agree they should hang onto to Vazquez. If they had some offense, Vazquez could be a serious cy young contender in the NL.

 

 

Corey Hart absolutely sucks this year.

 

They would be better off with Guillen in ATL. One scout said he has never seen a player as consistently "lost" as Corey this season, although his overall offensive numbers aren't atrocious, they've been far from consistent, like Konerko this season.

 

 

[BearSox]

Corey Hart absolutely sucks this year.

 

They would be better off with Guillen in ATL. One scout said he has never seen a player as consistently "lost" as Corey this season, although his overall offensive numbers aren't atrocious, they've been far from consistent, like Konerko this season.

 

His 2008 year wasn't much better. I think most people remember his 2007 year, and keep hoping that and some more come back after he matures/adjusts. His value is definitely low right now, but if a team like the Braves are interested, they definitely think he could revert back to that 2007 year, at least. But I think they'd expect quite the package in return for Javy.

 

One guy I wouldn't mind buying low on from the Brewers is J.J. Hardy in the offseason. He's had a tough season, and the Brewers definitely want to make room for Escobar at SS.

[greg775]

For me, anybody in our minor leagues and also Aaron Poreda are fair game in a trade for Halladay. Halladay right away makes this team a legit World Series contender and that's something I'm willing to take a chance on.

 

Yes, but how many of them are you willing to give up is what sparked the debate on here.

Four, five prospects, all of them top prospects in our organization? Or one or two of them?

 

[fathom]

His 2008 year wasn't much better. I think most people remember his 2007 year, and keep hoping that and some more come back after he matures/adjusts. His value is definitely low right now, but if a team like the Braves are interested, they definitely think he could revert back to that 2007 year, at least. But I think they'd expect quite the package in return for Javy.

 

One guy I wouldn't mind buying low on from the Brewers is J.J. Hardy in the offseason. He's had a tough season, and the Brewers definitely want to make room for Escobar at SS.

 

J.J. Hardy is awful. At least Hart can run.

[caulfield12]

J.J. Hardy is awful. At least Hart can run.

 

 

But Brent Lillibridge can run and also play SS.

 

 

[qwerty]

That's an interesting comparison. Santana was younger, closer to FA and therefore about to be more expensive, but also at the top of his game and in his prime years as opposed to at the back end of them. Here's what the Mets gave up for him:

 

 

 

Humber was coming off a season where he put up a 4.27 ERA and 1.24 WHIP for the Mets AAA team, and a 7.71 ERA in a few shots with the big league mets. Gomez had a 1/2 season in AAA in 07 with a .777 OPS, and put up a .592 OPS in the big leagues. He did so at age 21, so he was considered a potential growth projection. Mulvey and Guerra were potentially projectable guys; Mulvey's been hanging around the minors for a couple years now, and Guerra was dealt out of high-A ball. They were at the time the Mets #2,3,4 and 7 prospects, but a lot of people thought it at best an adequate package for a guy like Santana.

 

Richard and Poreda together have already done as much or more in the major leagues than what the guys the Mets gave up for Santana have done. Richard, Poreda, and someone with talent from the A-ball levels is about an equivalent deal, quite frankly.

 

My point was essentially made for me.

 

I follow prospects very close around the majors. I don' participate in the futuresox forum because i would clash with practically everyone around those parts. Prospects are fun to follow, but the reality is very, very few end up making a major impact, if they ever even make it in the first place (and sticking). Prospects are suspects. Proven commodities are just that much superior in nearly every single way.

 

No one runs a team to win minor league titles.

[chisoxfan09]

My point was essentially made for me.

 

I follow prospects very close around the majors. I don' participate in the futuresox forum because i would clash with practically everyone around those parts. Prospects are fun to follow, but the reality is very, very few end up making a major impact, if they ever even make it in the first place (and sticking). Prospects are suspects. Proven commodities are just that much superior in nearly every single way.

 

No one runs a team to win minor league titles.

 

I guess my personal take would be an offer of Poreda/Richard/Allen and maybe someone in A ball or Rookie league. But with the caveat that Halladay sign a 2 year extension. But with the right handed pitchers we now have developing in AA (Shirek/Hudson) maybe a one year rental after the season is over (Like Sheets) is worth the gamble.

Edited July 7, 2009 by chisoxfan09

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Flowers is more valuable than Allen. Flowers should be right up there with Beckham as far as being off the trading block.

Of course Flowers is much more valuable than Allen. That's why I put him in the trade for Halliday along with Poreda and Richard.

 

I think you misunderstood my post. I said I would gladly trade Flowers, Poreda and Richard for Halliday. You have to give quality to get quality. If that's not enough, I'd gladly throw in Getz and/or Fields if they had interest in them. Now if they also want the Sox to throw in Allen, I'd part with him as well but now I'd want them to start throwing in somebody else in the trade as well.

 

But by no means is Flowers "untouchable" when you're talking about a Roy Halliday or a Haren.

[jasonxctf]

let's say the difference between Halladay and Poreda/Richard is 2 runs per game. (5.00ERA vs 3.00ERA)

 

How much are you willing to give up, to save 2 runs, every 5 games?

[GreatScott82]

Rosenthal pretty much thinks Roy is gone

 

He mentions teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies, Cubs, Dodgers, Angels, White Sox, Brewers, Mets, Rangers and Braves being teams interested.

 

Teams who have the most ammo to aqcuire him are the White Sox, Angels and Mets. Obviously the White Sox package would be centered around Aaron Poreda. Were likely looking at Poreda, Richard, Flowers, and Getz as they are looking for MLB ready talent.

 

The Mets would have to give up Fernando Martinez along with others. . many think they will be too reluctant to give up their best prospect for another expensive pitcher.

 

The Angels have an influx of middle infielding talent. It didn't impress the Dbacks enough to pry away Dan Haren. However, it may for Halladay as he only has 1.5 years remaining on his deal.

 

The question is. How much are you willing to give up for 1.5 years of services? Like i said before, if he signs an extension after a deal than i would be all for it.

[Kyyle23]

Rosenthal pretty much thinks Roy is gone

 

He mentions teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies, Cubs, Dodgers, Angels, White Sox, Brewers, Mets, Rangers and Braves being teams interested.

 

Teams who have the most ammo to aqcuire him are the White Sox, Angels and Mets. Obviously the White Sox package would be centered around Aaron Poreda. Were likely looking at Poreda, Richard, Flowers, and Getz as they are looking for MLB ready talent.

The Mets would have to give up Fernando Martinez along with others. . many think they will be too reluctant to give up their best prospect for another expensive pitcher.

 

The Angels have an influx of middle infielding talent. It didn't impress the Dbacks enough to pry away Dan Haren. However, it may for Halladay as he only has 1.5 years remaining on his deal.

 

The question is. How much are you willing to give up for 1.5 years of services? Like i said before, if he signs an extension after a deal than i would be all for it.

 

 

He mentioned Beckham as well. End of negotiations

[GreatScott82]

Thats when KW hangs up the phone. . .

[DBAHO]

My guess is, Halladay ends up at a team like the Dodgers that have good young talent in their minors and are trying to win now. Halladay's the type of guy, with Billingsley and Kershaw that would make that team extremely hard to beat in a playoff series.

 

Do we need Halladay? Well of course Roy would look very nice on our team. But even with him, would we be able to win a world series with him? I'd have serious doubts about that with our lineup, and considering the talent we'd have to give up for Roy who's 33 and thrown a lot of innings, I'd probably stay away.

 

I'd rather Haren if we're talking about going after an ace pitcher here. At least for the durability factor.

[Steve9347]

Supposedly, a friend who works with the organization and has heard the rumblings around the office says the Blue Jays have demanded Gordon Beckham in any Roy Halladay deal, to which Kenny Williams pretty much gave a middle-finger.

 

This guy's pretty close to the action, so unless the Blue Jays are willing to lower their price, you can forget about it.

[southsider2k5]

Supposedly, a friend who works with the organization and has heard the rumblings around the office says the Blue Jays have demanded Gordon Beckham in any Roy Halladay deal, to which Kenny Williams pretty much gave a middle-finger.

 

This guy's pretty close to the action, so unless the Blue Jays are willing to lower their price, you can forget about it.

 

They can start with Becks, but that isn't going to happen. Unless they come down into Richard/Poreda country, those talks are OVA.

[BearSox]

Supposedly, a friend who works with the organization and has heard the rumblings around the office says the Blue Jays have demanded Gordon Beckham in any Roy Halladay deal, to which Kenny Williams pretty much gave a middle-finger.

 

This guy's pretty close to the action, so unless the Blue Jays are willing to lower their price, you can forget about it.

 

I think one of these would be a good reaction to them wanting Beckham:

 

[harfman77]

My guess is, Halladay ends up at a team like the Dodgers that have good young talent in their minors and are trying to win now. Halladay's the type of guy, with Billingsley and Kershaw that would make that team extremely hard to beat in a playoff series.

 

The Dodgers would need to part with either Billingsley or Kershaw to make the deal according to Rosenthal, so they would not have all three.

 

Viciendo isnt going anywhere, in part because he signed less than a year ago, I think Beckham is off limits as is most of the ML roster, other than that any of the prospects can be had in the right deal.