buehrle

[southsider2k5]

Got a question of the most boring day of the year. But it is related to Buehrle (mods, feel free to break off into new thread, if needed).

 

Is Mark Buehrle a Hall of Famer?

 

OK, so he won't get to 300 wins or 3000 strikeouts and he's only been in the top 5 of Cy voting once...

 

But, let me give you some stats off the top of my head:

 

- Been more or less the #1 starter for the Sox since 2001

- Double digit wins in ever season he's been a starter

- Lifetime ERA of 3.79

- More than 200 IPs in all but his first season, which was mostly as a reliever anyway

- Top 10 in ERA 4 times

- Won a World Series.

- Been to 4 AS games

- He is currently eighth all-time in wins and innings pitched by a pitcher in a White Sox uniform.

- Started every season opener from 2002-2006, 2008-2009

- Threw a no-hitter

 

 

I know his career obviously isn't over and a lot of things can happen, but let's say MB continues on his same pace until he retires. Here's why I ask...of course if you look at the pitchers that are currently or will shortly be in the Hall, MB doesn't stack up. BUT, how much cache does a player get for the little known stats? Also, the criteria is going to change. Do you think the Hall will look at the fact that he was the White Sox best pitcher for so long?

 

Discuss.

 

He's never won a Cy Young and he has never won 20 games in a season. Those two things are going to be the first red flags for him not being an HOF pitcher. If he can't even be called the best pitcher in the AL for a single year, I don't think you can call him one of the greatest ever. He just hasn't demonstrated the dominance that I see as necesary for the Hall.

 

[HoosierSox]

He was auditioning for the Cards...

Buerhle for Pujols.

[CanOfCorn]

Right now? Heck no.

 

If he pitches like he does, until he's about 41 or 42, then he's got a decent shot. If he does that, and wins a Cy somewhere in there, I say he's probably in. He's just really good, he has a WS ring already, is only 30, has a low effort and highly consistent motion (longevity), he's a great citizen and a gamer, he's stuck with one team (so far), and he's not reliant on velocity that would diminish over time. He's Jamie Moyer, but better.

 

So, as I said, if he keeps being MB until he's 41, maybe gets a Cy Young in there somewhere, he's got a good shot.

 

But this is what I'm asking...he isn't going to pitch until he's in his late 30's early 40's, at least that's what he said. And after the current crop of pitchers who hit 300, it's going to be a long time, so, do you think the Hall is going to have to change it's criteria? Look at other aspects. Obviously, he's not dominant like Koufax, who had a short, but incredible, career.

 

Not to mention the steroid era...because, if MB is ever found positive, I think he should get his money back.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Got a question of the most boring day of the year. But it is related to Buehrle (mods, feel free to break off into new thread, if needed).

 

Is Mark Buehrle a Hall of Famer?

 

OK, so he won't get to 300 wins or 3000 strikeouts and he's only been in the top 5 of Cy voting once...

 

But, let me give you some stats off the top of my head:

 

- Been more or less the #1 starter for the Sox since 2001

- Double digit wins in ever season he's been a starter

- Lifetime ERA of 3.79

- More than 200 IPs in all but his first season, which was mostly as a reliever anyway

- Top 10 in ERA 4 times

- Won a World Series.

- Been to 4 AS games

- He is currently eighth all-time in wins and innings pitched by a pitcher in a White Sox uniform.

- Started every season opener from 2002-2006, 2008-2009

- Threw a no-hitter

 

 

I know his career obviously isn't over and a lot of things can happen, but let's say MB continues on his same pace until he retires. Here's why I ask...of course if you look at the pitchers that are currently or will shortly be in the Hall, MB doesn't stack up. BUT, how much cache does a player get for the little known stats? Also, the criteria is going to change. Do you think the Hall will look at the fact that he was the White Sox best pitcher for so long?

 

Discuss.

 

If Mark goes all Jamie Moyer on everyone (which looks like a long shot) and pitches till 40-42 then I think he'll win between 280-300 wins. If he does, yes. Otherwise he goes into the Hall of Very Good. Either way no one will ever wear #56 for the White Sox again

[NorthSideSox72]

But this is what I'm asking...he isn't going to pitch until he's in his late 30's early 40's, at least that's what he said. And after the current crop of pitchers who hit 300, it's going to be a long time, so, do you think the Hall is going to have to change it's criteria? Look at other aspects. Obviously, he's not dominant like Koufax, who had a short, but incredible, career.

 

Not to mention the steroid era...because, if MB is ever found positive, I think he should get his money back.

He's said that is a possibility, not definite. And athletes who make promises like that (and his wasn't even a promise), rarely keep them. They can't leave the game.

 

[CanOfCorn]

He's said that is a possibility, not definite. And athletes who make promises like that (and his wasn't even a promise), rarely keep them. They can't leave the game.

 

True.

 

OK, let me re-frame this question:

 

So, there are going to be very few 300 game winners and/or 3000 K guys from here on out, just by the nature of the game today.

And, since the steroid era is for all intents and purposes, over, most pitchers probably won't be pitching into their 40's at a high plateau.

So, does the Hall adjust its standards for election? And if so, would a consistent pitcher, who was probably the best pitcher of the era FOR HIS TEAM, get more consideration?

[Balta1701]

So, does the Hall adjust its standards for election? And if so, would a consistent pitcher, who was probably the best pitcher of the era FOR HIS TEAM, get more consideration?

Yes. But here's the weird thing...everyone keeps saying "This is the last guy to get to 300 wins" every time anyone gets there since Clemens. We just keep getting more.

 

Let's say we actually go the next 15 years without anyone getting 300. Then there's 1 guy who hits 275. No one else is even close. That's an expression of the way the game has changed, and you might well note that when voting.

[CanOfCorn]

Exactly...now think about this...other than the current "HOFers" that are out there, like Randy Johnson...

 

How many pitchers are like Mark Buehrle. Someone so important to his team for so long. Jamie Moyer, yes, but MB has had more success. Any other pitchers been the "#1" starter on the same team for so long? I'm talking about current starters. One could say Pettitte, but he had those years with the Astros.

 

And to state my opinion...I don't know. As a Sox fan, I think he should, because he's been so important to OUR team. As a baseball fan, I don't think he's there just yet.

[YASNY]

Don Sutton is in. Tommy John and Bert Blyleven aren't. Those were 3 guys with longevity based statistics. .... Hell add Phil Neikro as being in. So, if Mark hangs around long enough to get close to 300 wins it's a 50-50 chance.

[CanOfCorn]

Don Sutton is in. Tommy John and Bert Blyleven aren't. Those were 3 guys with longevity based statistics. .... Hell add Phil Neikro as being in. So, if Mark hangs around long enough to get close to 300 wins it's a 50-50 chance.

 

It's a traveshamockery that Tommy John and Bert Blyleven aren't in.

[YASNY]

It's a traveshamockery that Tommy John and Bert Blyleven aren't in.

 

I totally agree.

[southsider2k5]

Don Sutton is in. Tommy John and Bert Blyleven aren't. Those were 3 guys with longevity based statistics. .... Hell add Phil Neikro as being in. So, if Mark hangs around long enough to get close to 300 wins it's a 50-50 chance.

 

If MB can win 300, he is in no doubt. There aren't any pitchers who have won 300 and not made it, right? I don't think Mark sticks around that long. I don't think he needs baseball as much as we need Mark Buehrle.

[CanOfCorn]

I guess what I've been trying to ask is...after Randy Johnson, we aren't going to have another 300 game winner for a loooong time. Just by the nature of the game today. So, does that open the door for pitchers like Blyleven, John and Buehrle?

[YASNY]

If MB can win 300, he is in no doubt. There aren't any pitchers who have won 300 and not made it, right? I don't think Mark sticks around that long. I don't think he needs baseball as much as we need Mark Buehrle.

 

I agree with everything you say here, but I said close to 300 wins. Tommy John had 288 and Blyleven had 287 but they aren't in. However you got Whitey Ford in there with 236 over 16 seasons with some great Yankee teams. So who knows?

[TLAK]

If MB can win 300, he is in no doubt. There aren't any pitchers who have won 300 and not made it, right? I don't think Mark sticks around that long. I don't think he needs baseball as much as we need Mark Buehrle.

I think a couple years down the road he could be a candidate for the Sunday plan like Jimmy Dykes used on Ted Lyons. Lyons was an aging fan favorite, to keep him going, Dykes would only start him on Sundays. It filled up the park and he was more effective with the extra rest. In those days there was a double header on most Sundays so it didn't disrupt the rotation as much as it would today. He also didn't make 12 million a year.

 

That said, a deal that would let an old Mark Buehrle fish and hunt in Missouri 4-5 days a week, and still be a White Sox might be a win-win. I agree with what you said about him not needing baseball so much, but when you look at his eyes on the mound he is still loving every second of it.

 

[CanOfCorn]

bump. Can we reopen the Is Buehrle a hall of famer question now?

 

Can we frame him with the pitchers of the day??? How many have a no-hitter, perfect game, World Series win AND save, double digit victories every year he's pitched, ERA under 3 every year but two, opening day starter 8 of 9 years, 200+ innings pitched every year but his rookie year.......

[MiddleCoastBias]

I was talking with Karko's Throatskin earlier and we found it ironic that Buehrle had a no-hitter going against Joe Maddon after Joe's joke phone call to Mark before the All-Star game saying that he wasn't invited anymore following a poor start. Maybe he shouldn't have said anything at all to Mark...

 

Way to go Burls!

[Chi Town Sox]

bump. Can we reopen the Is Buehrle a hall of famer question now?

 

Can we frame him with the pitchers of the day??? How many have a no-hitter, perfect game, World Series win AND save, double digit victories every year he's pitched, ERA under 3 every year but two, opening day starter 8 of 9 years, 200+ innings pitched every year but his rookie year.......

 

4 actually but I agree with you 100%

[WCSox]

If MB can win 300, he is in no doubt. There aren't any pitchers who have won 300 and not made it, right? I don't think Mark sticks around that long. I don't think he needs baseball as much as we need Mark Buehrle.

 

I'm not sure that Mark will stick around long enough to get 200 wins (he's at 133 right now). But if he does and leads the Sox to another pennant, he'd definitely be in the conversation (especially with a ring and two no-hitters already under his belt). I'm not sure if it'd be enough, but he'd probably end up on the ballot.

 

[southsider2k5]

Well there is no doubt that a perfect game on the resume will help a ton. Two things he really needs to do is win at least one Cy Young, and win 20 games at least once.

[WCSox]

Well there is no doubt that a perfect game on the resume will help a ton. Two things he really needs to do is win at least one Cy Young, and win 20 games at least once.

 

Yep, and that's (unfortunately) what'll likely keep him out of Cooperstown. Mark can dominate over the short-term, but he's never really been dominant over a full season or a 2-3 year span. Mind you, he's put up a number of very good seasons, but he's just never been considered the best at his position at any point in his career.

 

[CanOfCorn]

Yep, and that's (unfortunately) what'll likely keep him out of Cooperstown. Mark can dominate over the short-term, but he's never really been dominant over a full season or a 2-3 year span. Mind you, he's put up a number of very good seasons, but he's just never been considered the best at his position at any point in his career.

 

You are right...BUUUUUUUT...there are few, if any pitchers that have been arguably the most important player ON THEIR TEAM for as long as he has. Plus...NO DL STINTS. *knocking on wood*

 

I can't think of one pitcher that has been as consistent as Mark Buehrle.

[knightni]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/...o01.shtml?redir

 

Back-to-back no-nos. Not in the Hall.

[Pants Rowland]

Yep, and that's (unfortunately) what'll likely keep him out of Cooperstown. Mark can dominate over the short-term, but he's never really been dominant over a full season or a 2-3 year span. Mind you, he's put up a number of very good seasons, but he's just never been considered the best at his position at any point in his career.

 

Don Sutton? The 300 victories helped him a ton, though. I got the impression that he might not have made it at 299.

 

Edit: Just looked up his stats. Very similar to Buehrle but did get the 21 wins one season. Never won a Cy Young and fewer All-Star appearances. Still too early to discuss HOF for Mark, but if he sticks around and stays as consistent, 300 victories is not far fetched, which means neither is Cooperstown. Today really gave his chances a huge boost, though.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Pants Rowland

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Mark threw one inning of scoreless ball. He worked quick. Way to represent Mark!

Make that one PERFECT inning.