Brandon Allen

[DaTank]

Based on what? The fact he's never played there before?

 

And it's a good thing we didn't get a "crappy pen arm" in relief then.

 

Based on his athleticism.

[NorthSideSox72]

Even if Pena turns out to be a bust even in 2010, the trade thought process was smart on Kenny's part. 1B are extremely replaceable, but he was thinking that it'd be nice to get someone young in the pen who has the potential to be a closer some day, and can help now. Obviously it hasn't gone that well, but I can not criticize the trade thought process.

In a vacuum, this is true. But for the Sox, I feel it was not. The Sox have seriously aging guys at 1B and DH, and now have less financial flexibility to go get a slugger, and no one at all in the minors that looks like a serious potential replacement of that offense. Meanwhile, the Sox have one of the stronger bullpens in the game, and a few nice arms in the minors for the future, so the pen really was not a huge concern. Seemed like a poorly thought out move to me, for this team in particular.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Based on his athleticism.

He's athletic for a 1B, but going from that to being a corner OF is a long leap. It might be possible, but its a long shot for it to be successful.

 

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Based on his athleticism.

 

Gordon Beckham has nice athleticism, should we consider playing him at a corner OF spot then too?

[DaTank]

Gordon Beckham has nice athleticism, should we consider playing him at a corner OF spot then too?

 

Sure, if he didn't have more value as an IF. If we kept Allen, he could have been blocked at 1B. He might be considered athletic enough to play at a corner OF pos., is all.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Sure, if he didn't have more value as an IF. If we kept Allen, he could have been blocked at 1B. He might be considered athletic enough to play at a corner OF pos., is all.

 

You can't make a statement like he could have been one of our starters at a corner OF position based on "well he's athletic so maybe he could play there" mentality. He played 8 games there in Rookie ball 6 years ago. That's it.

[Marky Mark]

In a vacuum, this is true. But for the Sox, I feel it was not. The Sox have seriously aging guys at 1B and DH, and now have less financial flexibility to go get a slugger, and no one at all in the minors that looks like a serious potential replacement of that offense. Meanwhile, the Sox have one of the stronger bullpens in the game, and a few nice arms in the minors for the future, so the pen really was not a huge concern. Seemed like a poorly thought out move to me, for this team in particular.

 

 

 

Vicideo is a good candidate for 1B.

[DaTank]

You can't make a statement like he could have been one of our starters at a corner OF position based on "well he's athletic so maybe he could play there" mentality. He played 8 games there in Rookie ball 6 years ago. That's it.

 

I didn't say "oh - Brandon Allen would have been our starting LF next season". All I said was that due to his athleticism, we could have simply tried him there. Whether he would be able to stick there or not is unknown.

Edited August 24, 2009 by jenks45monster

[NorthSideSox72]

Vicideo is a good candidate for 1B.

That's probably true, though I don't think he's actually played there yet. I wouldn't be surprised to see him at 1B next year, and you make a good point.

 

[ThunderBolt]

Vicideo is a good candidate for 1B.

Viciedo is also 5'11. I imagine he'll be in LF in two years.

[almagest]

Maybe we should wait until Allen has more than 8 major league at-bats before declaring this trade a bust?

[NorthSideSox72]

Maybe we should wait until Allen has more than 8 major league at-bats before declaring this trade a bust?

There is a difference between calling it a bust, and saying we disagreed with it when it was made. I'm in the latter camp. Can't evaluate the former anytime soon.

 

[almagest]

There is a difference between calling it a bust, and saying we disagreed with it when it was made. I'm in the latter camp. Can't evaluate the former anytime soon.

That's understandable. I just think we're severely overvaluing Allen. He wouldn't be with the D-Backs right now if they had a first baseman who could hit over .200, and his high strikeout rate is going to kill him at this level unless he can make adjustments really quickly.

 

Also, we have Konerko for another season IIRC, and one of Viciedo/Fields/Flowers/Phegley is probably going to replace him after that. Although none of them are 1B prospects at this point, I don't think we'll be hurting for depth at that position.

[ThunderBolt]

I don’t like the argument that one has to of watched every game of Brandon Allen's MILB career to be able to pass judgment on what kind of player he’ll be. Honestly, outside of a few spring AB’s and a couple of videos on Sox Machine, none of us really have the full picture of any prospect, outside of what we’ve read, what we can see and access on paper and box scores. That being said, I feel like by looking at the numbers, reading reports, that a decent picture can be painted. The kid can hit for average, power, and run. He’s very fluid for a big guy, I always compared him to an early Lance Berkman. Berkman was always a big guy who , upon his call-up, could play every Outfield position along with 1B. I see. Brandon Allen is in similar mold where pure athleticism alone will carry him places.

[oldsox]

Vicideo is a good candidate for 1B.

He might be too short to be an average first baseman. Speaking of that, Konerko is underrated defensively. Never would have said that 5-6 yrs ago.

[witesoxfan]

Josh Fields is also athletic and he failed as an outfielder.

[ThunderBolt]

Josh Fields is also athletic and he failed as an outfielder.

Fields is also a strikeout machine who can’t catch a fastball, and a defensive black hole.

[Quin]

Fields is also a strikeout machine who can’t catch a fastball, and a defensive black hole.

 

I was screaming at the TV when I saw him at 1B over Paulie in the Perfecto.

 

I kept thinking he'd blow it on the last play.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Josh Fields is also athletic and he failed as an outfielder.

 

 

Fields is also a strikeout machine who can’t catch a fastball, and a defensive black hole.

 

Which has nothing to do with his play in the OF. The point was that just because someone is athletic (Allen) and plays a corner IF spot doesn't mean they can play a corner OF spot as was suggested earlier in the thread.

[ILMOU]

He might be too short to be an average first baseman. Speaking of that, Konerko is underrated defensively. Never would have said that 5-6 yrs ago.

 

 

Prince Fielder is about the same height as Dayan, I believe, so maybe the height isn't that big of a deal.

[Balta1701]

Prince Fielder is about the same height as Dayan, I believe, so maybe the height isn't that big of a deal.

Prince Fielder isn't exactly a defensive machine either.

[NorthSideSox72]

Prince Fielder isn't exactly a defensive machine either.

Which I'm pretty sure has nothing to do with his height.

 

[Rowand44]

I just fear this is our Larry Anderson for Jeff Bagwell trade.

I feel like I've heard this a million times about one of Kenny's trades. It hasn't happened yet, and I highly doubt Allen is the guy. I guess we'll have to wait and see but it's nothing to get upset about, yet.

 

And as saying we should be haunted by his success, he hasn't had any yet so there's nothing to be haunted about.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

That's understandable. I just think we're severely overvaluing Allen. He wouldn't be with the D-Backs right now if they had a first baseman who could hit over .200, and his high strikeout rate is going to kill him at this level unless he can make adjustments really quickly.

 

Also, we have Konerko for another season IIRC, and one of Viciedo/Fields/Flowers/Phegley is probably going to replace him after that. Although none of them are 1B prospects at this point, I don't think we'll be hurting for depth at that position.

When that trade was made there were reports of AZ scouts absolutely loving this guy. I forget who it was, but FutureSox had an interview with I think one of the BA guys and something similar was said where Allen is a guy some scouts love and see as an above-average starting MLB first baseman, others see him as a AAAA player, and yet others see him as a MLB bench or platoon player. The AZ people have seen this guy since we've had him because, with the exception of this year's ST, we've shared complexes with the Diamondbacks as long as Allen has been in our system.

 

The strikeout rate statement lacks knowledge of his numbers. He has cut down on his K's drastically from where it was prior to the last two seasons while increasing levels and facing tougher competition. Obviously his numbers will look bad for periods while he adjusts, and obviously the PCL had inflated his AAA AZ numbers, but the numbers with AZ are a lot more indicative of his ability than his stint in Charlotte was. The improved K rate was one of the main reasons he shot up our charts as a prospect, and if you think Allen's K numbers the last two seasons are high, just check out the numbers for pretty much every other legit power hitting prospect in the game. Most all of them are going to be at least as high, probably a lot higher. It is pretty rare to find a guy who makes better contact than Allen has these last couple seasons and still hits for power.

 

Thirdly, the main reason I loved him as a prospect is *because* of his ability to make adjustments at the plate. It is that plus the lowered K rate, plus the age, plus the improvement he's made over the last two seasons, plus the increased walk rate as he's improved, plus the athletic ability and the improvement he's made at 1B that makes him more than your average 1B prospect. Allen hasn't gotten the attention nationally, and if you look at top-100 prospect lists from long ago, it is very common to see guys in the 80's and 90's that ended up being far better players than other guys much higher on the lists. Just because a guy doesn't get lauded in the big publications doesn't mean he isn't as good or better than some of those guys that are. Allen IMO is a much better prospect than Poreda and yet we heard lots of national prospect evaluators glowing over him with very little about Allen. Casey Rogowski probably got more pub coming up the ranks than Allen got the last two years.

 

Allen might be considered a "late bloomer" as a prospect because he had to repeat levels, but even considering him that would be inaccurate as he signed out of high school and at the age of 23 has become Arizona's starting 1B. So I don't think anyone is overrating or overvaluing Allen because no one is making outlandish statements like he's going to win batting titles, or have top-5 finishes in MVP races, or be a perennial All-Star, etc. It's just that he's a very nice prospect and some people, including myself, feel he was worth more than Tony Pena. I would have had no problem dealing him provided we got a better return - and I'm not talking Pujols or anything, I'm talking about a better-than-average starter or position player whom we would be able to control for the next couple of seasons.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[NorthSideSox72]

When that trade was made there were reports of AZ scouts absolutely loving this guy. I forget who it was, but FutureSox had an interview with I think one of the BA guys and something similar was said where Allen is a guy some scouts love and see as an above-average starting MLB first baseman, others see him as a AAAA player, and yet others see him as a MLB bench or platoon player. The AZ people have seen this guy since we've had him because, with the exception of this year's ST, we've shared complexes with the Diamondbacks as long as Allen has been in our system.

 

The strikeout rate statement lacks knowledge of his numbers. He has cut down on his K's drastically from where it was prior to the last two seasons while increasing levels and facing tougher competition. Obviously his numbers will look bad for periods while he adjusts, and obviously the PCL had inflated his AAA AZ numbers, but the numbers with AZ are a lot more indicative of his ability than his stint in Charlotte was. The improved K rate was one of the main reasons he shot up our charts as a prospect, and if you think Allen's K numbers the last two seasons are high, just check out the numbers for pretty much every other legit power hitting prospect in the game. Most all of them are going to be at least as high, probably a lot higher. It is pretty rare to find a guy who makes better contact than Allen has these last couple seasons and still hits for power.

 

Thirdly, the main reason I loved him as a prospect is *because* of his ability to make adjustments at the plate. It is that plus the lowered K rate, plus the age, plus the improvement he's made over the last two seasons, plus the increased walk rate as he's improved, plus the athletic ability and the improvement he's made at 1B that makes him more than your average 1B prospect. Allen hasn't gotten the attention nationally, and if you look at top-100 prospect lists from long ago, it is very common to see guys in the 80's and 90's that ended up being far better players than other guys much higher on the lists. Just because a guy doesn't get lauded in the big publications doesn't mean he isn't as good or better than some of those guys that are. Allen IMO is a much better prospect than Poreda and yet we heard lots of national prospect evaluators glowing over him with very little about Allen. Casey Rogowski probably got more pub coming up the ranks than Allen got the last two years.

 

Allen might be considered a "late bloomer" as a prospect because he had to repeat levels, but even considering him that would be inaccurate as he signed out of high school and at the age of 23 has become Arizona's starting 1B. So I don't think anyone is overrating or overvaluing Allen because no one is making outlandish statements like he's going to win batting titles, or have top-5 finishes in MVP races, or be a perennial All-Star, etc. It's just that he's a very nice prospect and some people, including myself, feel he was worth more than Tony Pena. I would have had no problem dealing him provided we got a better return - and I'm not talking Pujols or anything, I'm talking about a better-than-average starter or position player whom we would be able to control for the next couple of seasons.

Great post, and pretty much captures my thoughts as well.