Rays (51-42) @ White Sox (48-44) 7:11pm CSN-HD

[WCSox]

Also, his arm is unconditioned? He's been starting for what, 3 months now? If his arm isn't conditioned, he shouldn't be starting right now.

 

FAIL

 

Also, it really had nothing to do with the closer in that situation in the first place. I mentioned Jenks struggling his previous couple outings, but that should have had no bearing on the decision. Tonight was not the type of game where you go to the bullpen when you have your pitcher pitching as well as Richard was. You put him out there on a short leash. If he looks fatigued out there and he doesn't have the same stuff/control as the previous 8, fine take him out.

 

Also, what's better, giving your pitcher a chance to win it? Or let someone else finish the game for him and close the book on you? I, as a former player, would prefer the former.

 

You, as a former Little League/high school player, know how to handle a pitching staff better than Ozzie? That's pretty funny.

 

[BearSox]

FAIL

Fail at what? Is that the only reply you have? Good one.

 

You, as a former Little League/high school player, know how to handle a pitching staff better than Ozzie? That's pretty funny.

 

I stated that wrongly. From a players standpoint, would you rather be given the chance to finish what you started, or have the fate of the game be put in someone else's hand?

 

If I was Richard tonight, I absolutely want to go out there in the 9th.

[WCSox]

It should have been Thornton in the 9th tonight, and I actually thought it was a no brainer. However, when it gets to Bobby and we lose, I have a hard time blaming Ozzie, but after tonight, that might change. Bobby might rebound, but the unconditional trust I have had in him since he came up in 2005 is now gone. You just can't fully trust him anymore with the stuff he has, which is nowhere near what it was.

 

Jenks is "the man" in the bullpen. With years of very-good-to-dominant pitching under his belt, he's earned the right to close games, and it's going to take several more blown saves for that to change.

 

[SoxFan1]

Fail at what? Is that the only reply you have? Good one.

 

 

 

I stated that wrongly. From a players standpoint, would you rather be given the chance to finish what you started, or have the fate of the game be put in someone else's hand?

 

If I was Richard tonight, I absolutely want to go out there in the 9th.

Please stop. You have NO idea how good Richard felt. He was already showing signs in the 8th. He started getting behind batters but still managed to get out of it. He had a great start. You don't want to risk him losing the confidence if he gave up the lead in the 9th. He's been s***ty as balls lately anyway. You take him out after 8 and take it as a huge positive. Sure, you'd WANT to go out there and finish it, but it doesn't mean you can successfully do so. You aren't the only person here to ever play baseball.

[whitesoxfan101]

Jenks is "the man" in the bullpen. With years of very-good-to-dominant pitching under his belt, he's earned the right to close games, and it's going to take several more blown saves for that to change.

 

Tampa Bay spent 8 innings flailing at left handed pitching and hard fastballs inside all night, Jenks threw almost 30 pitches last night, and I think most people could see what happened in the 9th tonight coming. I am not calling for an outright demotion of Jenks, I just wanted to see Thornton tonight all things considered. But as I said, even though I didn't agree with Ozzie, I am not going to blame him for what he did. If you get the ball to Jenks with the lead and he blows it, it's on Jenks.

[WCSox]

Fail at what? Is that the only reply you have? Good one.

 

There's a reason why young pitchers who have had a rough time in the bigs and have surpassed 130 IP/season ONCE in their minor-league careers, are taken out after 116 pitches during a rare phenomenal start. Since you apparently know everything about baseball, I'll let you figure it out.

 

I stated that wrongly. From a players standpoint, would you rather be given the chance to finish what you started, or have the fate of the game be put in someone else's hand?

 

If I was Richard tonight, I absolutely want to go out there in the 9th.

 

And if you blew the lead (or your elbow), you'd feel like complete crap afterwards.

 

I'll bet that Mark Buehrle would volunteer go another 9 innings on one day's rest. But that doesn't make it a good idea.

 

[SoxAce]

Since you apparently know everything about baseball, I'll let you figure it out.

 

Nice.

[BearSox]

Please stop. You have NO idea how good Richard felt. He was already showing signs in the 8th. He started getting behind batters but still managed to get out of it. He had a great start. You don't want to risk him losing the confidence if he gave up the lead in the 9th. He's been s***ty as balls lately anyway. You take him out after 8 and take it as a huge positive. Sure, you'd WANT to go out there and finish it, but it doesn't mean you can successfully do so. You aren't the only person here to ever play baseball.

 

True, I have no idea how Richard felt. Even so, why not give him the opportunity in the 9th with a short leash? He walks the first batter, or gives up a hit, fine. Have the bullpen ready to relieve him. But one thing is for sure, he'd have a whole lot more confidence and be a whole lot more happy with a complete game W instead of a very promising 8 inning ND.

 

And really, he showed signs of slowing down in the 8th? How so?

 

Okay, he fell behind Dillon, but that wasn't there had been a couple times within the game where Richard fell behind a hitter. But he still got the out. Maybe a little red flag.

 

Second batter, he threw first pitch strike, second pitch ball, and got him to ground out in what should have been an out if not for Beckham short arming the ball (still have no idea how they gave Navarro a hit on that. Is Navarro that fast he would have beaten it out?). Okay, he made a good pitch to Navarro, but the ball didn't bounce his way, but he looked fine that AB.

 

Next batter, he comes right after Upton, throws two very good fastballs in good locations and gets Upton to ground out into the DP.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't see the fatigue.

[WCSox]

Tampa Bay spent 8 innings flailing at left handed pitching and hard fastballs inside all night, Jenks threw almost 30 pitches last night, and I think most people could see what happened in the 9th tonight coming.

 

That's fair enough, but there's also an unwritten rule that established closers with wildly-successful track records close games, no matter how much of a funk they're in at that point.

 

If you get the ball to Jenks with the lead and he blows it, it's on Jenks.

 

He got squeezed at least three times tonight, but I completely agree. That's why he's getting paid millions now.

 

[BearSox]

There's a reason why young pitchers who have had a rough time in the bigs and have surpassed 130 IP/season ONCE in their minor-league careers, are taken out after 116 pitches during a rare phenomenal start. Since you apparently know everything about baseball, I'll let you figure it out.

So what, you telling me his arm isn't conditioned enough to throw more than 120 pitches in one start after 3 months of starting? I'm sorry, I don't see it.

 

And if you blew the lead (or your elbow), you'd feel like complete crap afterwards.

 

I'll bet that Mark Buehrle would volunteer go another 9 innings on one day's rest. But that doesn't make it a good idea.

Yeah, cause that Buehrle comparison really relates to what I was talking about!

 

And did I ever say anything about having Richard go out there and get rocked? No, if he doesn't look good after the first batter take him out.

 

And please tell me how 10 more pitches would blow out his elbow. Please oh please tell me.

[WCSox]

So what, you telling me his arm isn't conditioned enough to throw more than 120 pitches in one start after 3 months of starting? I'm sorry, I don't see it.

 

 

Yeah, cause that Buehrle comparison really relates to what I was talking about!

 

And did I ever say anything about having Richard go out there and get rocked? No, if he doesn't look good after the first batter take him out.

 

And please tell me how 10 more pitches would blow out his elbow. Please oh please tell me.

 

Please stop embarrassing yourself. Nobody in this thread agrees with you, and you're beginning to sound like one of the people who irrationally scream at Chris Rongey during the post-game show.

 

[BearSox]

Please stop embarrassing yourself. Nobody in this thread agrees with you, and you're beginning to sound like one of the people who irrationally scream at Chris Rongey during the post-game show.

Wow, good argument. Yeah, I'm an idiot because I don't agree with the majority on here. Thanks.

[WCSox]

Wow, good argument. Yeah, I'm an idiot because I don't agree with the majority on here. Thanks.

 

No, nobody called you an "idiot." You just need to realize that being an 18-year-old former Little Leaguer doesn't make you an expert in handling pitching staffs. Everybody has opinions, but it's not wise to argue them vehemently (with poor supporting evidence, to boot) in the faces of people who've been watching (and possibly playing) baseball a heck of a lot longer than you have. You're not even considering opposing opinions. You're just arguing for the sake or arguing at this point.

Edited July 22, 2009 by WCSox

[BearSox]

No, nobody called you an "idiot." You just need to realize that being an 18-year-old former Little Leaguer doesn't make you an expert in handling pitching staffs. Everybody has opinions, but it's not wise to argue them vehemently (with poor supporting evidence, to boot) in the faces of people who've been watching (and possibly playing) baseball a heck of a lot longer than you have. You're not even considering opposing opinions. You're just arguing for the sake or arguing at this point.

Here comes the age argument. Yeah, I'm 18, but that doesn't mean I'm some novice. My whole life has been baseball (and football). I think I know a thing or two.

 

As for my points, I think they're pretty valid. And if I'm not considering opposing opinions, what are you doing?

[WCSox]

Here comes the age argument. Yeah, I'm 18, but that doesn't mean I'm some novice. My whole life has been baseball (and football). I think I know a thing or two.

 

If you don't want age brought into the discussion, don't make remarks like, "As a former player..." It's not like you have any special advanced baseball experience or insight that others here are lacking. The vast majority of people here also played Little League and high school ball.

 

I'm sure that you know a fair share about baseball, but the fact that you're still puzzled as to why Richard was removed in the 8th after throwing a 116-pitch gem suggests that you don't know much about handling players. These are real people, not fantasy or video game players. Instilling confidence in young players and protecting their arms are important to their development. There's a reason why Ozzie has a lot more success with young pitchers than people like Dusty Baker and Jerry Manuel.

 

As for my points, I think they're pretty valid. And if I'm not considering opposing opinions, what are you doing?

 

Apparently you haven't read my other posts...

 

That's fair enough, but there's also an unwritten rule that established closers with wildly-successful track records close games, no matter how much of a funk they're in at that point...

 

He got squeezed at least three times tonight, but I completely agree. That's why he's getting paid millions now.

 

I tend to respond well to posters who don't try to shove their opinions down my throat.

Edited July 22, 2009 by WCSox

[BearSox]

If you don't want age brought into the discussion, don't make remarks like, "As a former player..." It's not like you have any special advanced baseball experience or insight that others here are lacking. The vast majority of people here also played Little League and high school ball.

 

I'm sure that you know a fair share about baseball, but the fact that you're still puzzled as to why Richard was removed in the 8th after throwing a 116-pitch gem suggests that you don't know much about handling players. These are real people, not fantasy video game players. Instilling confidence in young players and protecting their arms are important. There's a reason why Ozzie has a lot more success with young pitchers than people like Dusty Baker and Jerry Manuel.

Nope, not really puzzled, I know why he was taken out, because of a "high" pitch count. I also realize this is the real world, but if you think 1-10 pitches (depending on how he does that inning) will make a huge impact on his arm, you are sorely mistaken. Plus, this is ONE, count it, ONE start. I've never said anything about having him go out there every 5th day and throw 120+ pitches. Today he was on, and he should have been given the chance to finish it off.

 

Also, the confidence talk is overrated. Even if does come in, give up a base hit to the first batter and then get taken out, and Jenks still blows it, if Richard has his confidence hurt, he's way too fragile to begin with.

 

Apparently you haven't read my other posts...

 

I tend to respond well to posters who don't try to shove their opinions down my throat.

Want a cookie?

 

Also, show me where I shoved my opinions down your throat. I disagreed, but I never stated "you're an embarrasment and you're wrong, shut up!"

[WCSox]

Nope, not really puzzled, I know why he was taken out, because of a "high" pitch count.

 

That was only part of it. Ozzie wanted to give him a chance to leave the game on a high note, and to earn a well-deserved W. It's part of Richard's development.

 

Also, the confidence talk is overrated. Even if does come in, give up a base hit to the first batter and then get taken out, and Jenks still blows it, if Richard has his confidence hurt, he's way too fragile to begin with.

 

The truth is that all young players have a certain degree of "fragility" that is overcome over time with confidence obtained through success at the Major League level. You can choose to dismiss that fact if you wish, but keep in mind that people who have been watching/playing sports a lot longer than you disagree with you.

 

Ozzie certainly disagrees with you, and he knows a hell of a lot more about managing and developing young baseball players than anybody here.

Edited July 22, 2009 by WCSox

[BearSox]

That was only part of it. Ozzie wanted to give him a chance to leave the game on a high note, and to earn a well-deserved W. It's part of Richard's development.

 

 

 

The truth is that all young players have a certain degree of "fragility" that is overcome over time with confidence obtained through success at the Major League level. You can choose to dismiss that fact if you wish, but keep in mind that people who have been watching/playing sports a lot longer than you disagree with you.

 

Ozzie certainly disagrees with you, and he knows a hell of a lot more about managing and developing young baseball players than anybody here.

Ozzie is the manager, but many people, not only myself, question his ability to develop young baseball players.

 

And just because Ozzie should know a lot more, he isn't always right. Not talking about tonight, but I've and many have been more than angry at Ozzie in the past for some very questionable managing.

 

Plus, I don't care what anyone says, I could make a better manager than Jerry Manuel. Half of this board can.

[WCSox]

Ozzie is the manager, but many people, not only myself, question his ability to develop young baseball players.

 

Ozzie did a hell of a job of developing Garland, Jenks, Danks, and Floyd.

 

And just because Ozzie should know a lot more, he isn't always right. Not talking about tonight, but I've and many have been more than angry at Ozzie in the past for some very questionable managing.

 

Yeah, join the club. But we're talking about young pitchers here, and he's been wildly-successful in that regard.

 

Plus, I don't care what anyone says, I could make a better manager than Jerry Manuel. Half of this board can.