Black Jack McDowell on tonight's loss and closers

[scenario]

Last night was the first time Tampa has ever scored earned runs against Bobby...

 

He had a 0.00 ERA against them in 11 career performances before last night.

 

So I can just imagine the barbequing Ozzie would be getting if he left in Richard or put in someone else and they lost the game.

 

Classic damned if you do and damned if you don't situation.

 

 

[Texsox]

I am too lazy to look it up and back up this claim, but . . .

 

Wasn't McDowell a much better first half pitcher than a tired end of season, playoff pitcher?

 

But, he did practice what he is preaching, IIRC he led the league two or three times in CG, one season he had like 16 or some insane number.

[BigSqwert]

I am too lazy to look it up and back up this claim, but . . .

 

Wasn't McDowell a much better first half pitcher than a tired end of season, playoff pitcher?

 

But, he did practice what he is preaching, IIRC he led the league two or three times in CG, one season he had like 16 or some insane number.

That's only because Gene Lamont was sleeping in the dugout most nights.

[TheChrisSamsa]

I was surprised he came back out in the 8th.

 

I was shocked when he came out in the 8th. I thought for sure we were going to see Thornton/Dotel in the 8th and Jenks in the 9th.

 

With that said, Bobby is the closer, he pitches the 9th. It's his role on this team, and generally, he's very good at it. Last night, he blew it. It happens. BlackJack does state his opinion clearly, which I appreciate, even if I respectfully disagree.

[BigSqwert]

I thought for sure we were going to see Thornton/Dotel in the 8th and Jenks in the 9th.

I was waiting for Linebrink. He seems to be an automatic appearance each game.

[Chisoxfn]

Here's an interesting commentary by Mario Scalise from SoxNet

 

We're new here, but one of the things you'll regularly see me grunting about is the role of the closer. In short, I don't believe in it. Relievers are relievers. Your best ones are used in the most crucial moments of the game, the rest get used around and between.

 

And because there are so many of them in today's game, they all deserve a leash. Some longer than others. Your very best, for instance, or the best of the best (Rivera, Nathan...etc.), but a leash shouldn't extend to a loss. But in today's game, the leash of the closers is just that long, and last night was a perfect example of it.

 

Bobby Jenks, coming off a 28-pitch, 1-hit, 2-walk ninth inning the night before against the Rays -- which came before already giving up 4 runs in 4 innings so far in the month -- was back on the bump in the last inning Tuesday night with a one-run lead.

 

He was trying to "save" the game for Clayton Richard, who pitched a career-game enlight of speculation and calls for his removal from the rotation. It didn't work out.

 

A single, hit by pitch, and another single loaded the bases without a single batter batter being retired. Any old reliever would have been pulled probably after the first two of that sequence. But a "closer" gets a longer leash and is allowed to load the bases. Fine.

 

And then comes a walk to bring in the tying run.

 

Again, any old reliever gets pulled after the first two batters reaching, but the closer is allowed to do that TWICE!

 

The next guy hits a sacrifice fly to bring in the go-ahead run (no thanks to Dye, who setup poorly to make a play at the plate a close one). Jenks is still in. Next batter walks. Jenks is still in. That guy steals second. Jenks is still in.

 

This all happening, again, after a poor performance the night before and a series of poor performances throughout the month, and it all happens while six other relievers are in the bullpen.

 

Guillen finds it necessary -- vital -- to have two more relievers (7) than starting pitchers (5) in his pen. Vital, to have three more relievers than bench players. Yet six go unused after the struggling "closer" allows four straight base-runners to reach?

 

And yes, something is brewing

 

[elgonzo4sox]

Last night was the first time Tampa has ever scored earned runs against Bobby...

 

He had a 0.00 ERA against them in 11 career performances before last night.

 

So I can just imagine the barbequing Ozzie would be getting if he left in Richard or put in someone else and they lost the game.

 

Classic damned if you do and damned if you don't situation.

 

 

10 of the 11 previous performances are ancient history. What Ozzie should have paid attention to was the most recent performance the previous night. Bobby threw a lot of pitches (28) in the 4-3 victory, and six Rays batters saw his stuff. He was shaky, but gutted it out. Ozzie should have given him Tuesday night off, and gone to Dotel in the 9th, who was warming up in the bullpen in the 8th. Dotel hasn't pitched yet this series, and he is a high contrast pitcher from Richard, even more so than Jenks.

 

Instead it appeared that Ozzie either followed the book ("It's a save situation, so I'm going to put in my closer"), or wanted to give Jenks a vote of confidence after the shaky outing Monday night. I can only hope it was the latter, and that the vote pays off later in the season, in a high pressure playoff atmosphere game, when Jenks pitches with complete confidence because his manager has backed him in the past, as Ozzie did on Tuesday.

 

 

 

[joeynach]

Whats intersting to me is that both nites where he pitched like garbage I noticed one thing. I strong reluctance to just throw hard fastballs. Id say a majority of his pitches were some sort of change, slider, or cutter. I rarely saw him just try and throw a hard well located fastball. My initial gut feeling was that they must have a scouting reports on Rays hitters that say they sit mainly fastball, or jenks and the staff feels like they have more trouble with other pitches. But the problem is if thats the case that takes Jenks away from his bread and butter. Im not really here to suggest there is velocity issue again with Bobby cuz his heater is really about 93-95 mph. It was his lack of willingness to throw it, and throw it for strikes which was disturbing. Im not sure what the case is, but the fact he doesn't trust that pitch as a closer/couldn't locate it is a little dis-heartening. Maybe he is going through some injury, maybe he was coached on no throwing fastballs to their hitters....I dont know. Either way its all awfully strange.

[elgonzo4sox]

10 of the 11 previous performances are ancient history. What Ozzie should have paid attention to was the most recent performance the previous night. Bobby threw a lot of pitches (28) in the 4-3 victory, and six Rays batters saw his stuff. He was shaky, but gutted it out. Ozzie should have given him Tuesday night off, and gone to Dotel in the 9th, who was warming up in the bullpen in the 8th. Dotel hasn't pitched yet this series, and he is a high contrast pitcher from Richard, even more so than Jenks.

 

Instead it appeared that Ozzie either followed the book ("It's a save situation, so I'm going to put in my closer"), or wanted to give Jenks a vote of confidence after the shaky outing Monday night. I can only hope it was the latter, and that the vote pays off later in the season, in a high pressure playoff atmosphere game, when Jenks pitches with complete confidence because his manager has backed him in the past, as Ozzie did on Tuesday.

 

 

p.s. I think the biggest reason for Tuesday night's loss was not Jenks, or even Ozzie's decision to use Jenks, but rather the failure to score a few more runs, especially in the 8th. Asking your pitching staff to win a game when you only give them 2 runs to work with is tough.

[kwolf68]

Another argument to McDowells comment was Cliff Lee for the Indians last night...entered the 9th at or over 100 pitches and they let him finish the game, which he did in 12 pitches.

 

Ozzie needs to 'manage' and not just 'follow the protocols' ... really, HOW HARD is it to manage when every situation has a stock response on how to react? Leading by 3 or less, entering 9th, insert closer.

 

I'd rather for him to send Jenks out sometimes and other games let the SP stay in, and no rule exists that says you can't use Thornton to close out a game (esp if you have strong lefties coming up). If Ozzie were to do a variety of things that would tell me he's actually trying to manage and using his instincts (which Ozzie does have great instincts) instead of just going by the standard issue response to baseball play 101.

 

Baseball is a great game because the nuances of the game...when every situation has a standard response, those nuances are neutered and rendered sterile.

 

We can debate the decision to put Jenks in last night, but McDowells commentary is very valid.

Edited July 22, 2009 by kwolf68

[southsider2k5]

You noticed how after that blog was made, Slayer has only missed what... 1 game? He won't be nearly as dicked around. Ozzie might not like it, and even Hawk can add his 2 cents, but the organization takes it to heart.

 

I don't agree with BlackJack on this one though.

 

Except that Beckham was pretty much playing everyday before he wrote that column as well. He was in 5-6 games a week.

[wsgdf_2]

Another argument to McDowells comment was Cliff Lee for the Indians last night...entered the 9th at or over 100 pitches and they let him finish the game, which he did in 12 pitches.

 

Ozzie needs to 'manage' and not just 'follow the protocols' ... really, HOW HARD is it to manage when every situation has a stock response on how to react? Leading by 3 or less, entering 9th, insert closer.

 

I'd rather for him to send Jenks out sometimes and other games let the SP stay in, and no rule exists that says you can't use Thornton to close out a game (esp if you have strong lefties coming up). If Ozzie were to do a variety of things that would tell me he's actually trying to manage and using his instincts (which Ozzie does have great instincts) instead of just going by the standard issue response to baseball play 101.

 

Baseball is a great game because the nuances of the game...when every situation has a standard response, those nuances are neutered and rendered sterile.

 

We can debate the decision to put Jenks in last night, but McDowells commentary is very valid.

 

 

100 pitches is different than 115 pitches. It's also Lee vs Richard and the fact that the Indians don't have a bullpen option that doesn't suck.

 

Richard has thrown over 100 pitches three times all year. In his last 5 starts he threw 65, 81, 85, 80 and 46. I'm a little surprised that he even came out for the 8th.

 

He made a decision and it didn't work out - I think it's weak for McDowell to take that and try to make it into a bigger thing about Ozzie hiding behind Jenks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[southsider2k5]

100 pitches is different than 115 pitches. It's also Lee vs Richard and the fact that the Indians don't have a bullpen option that doesn't suck.

 

Richard has thrown over 100 pitches three times all year. In his last 5 starts he threw 65, 81, 85, 80 and 46. I'm a little surprised that he even came out for the 8th.

 

He made a decision and it didn't work out - I think it's weak for McDowell to take that and try to make it into a bigger thing about Ozzie hiding behind Jenks.

 

And we all know that Cliff Lee has put in both higher pitch counts and innings worked over the course of a season than Richard has. I really wouldn't be surprised if Richard gets his ass kicked next time around because his arm is tired from last night.

[Soxbadger]

I usually dont like the way that Ozzie handles the pen, but you win and lose with your best. If Jenks is no longer our best option in the 9th inning up 1, then we have significant issues for the rest of the season.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Richard in the 9th would have been scary. I have no problem with Ozzie going with Jenks, he is getting paid $5.6 million this year to get outs in the 9th. The only criticism I have is why not have someone ready in case Bobby pitched like he had the previous 4 outings? He really should have been yanked after 2 hitters and certainly after he loaded them up, and most definitely after they tied it up.

[Balta1701]

Richard in the 9th would have been scary. I have no problem with Ozzie going with Jenks, he is getting paid $5.6 million this year to get outs in the 9th. The only criticism I have is why not have someone ready in case Bobby pitched like he had the previous 4 outings? He really should have been yanked after 2 hitters and certainly after he loaded them up, and most definitely after they tied it up.

I'd agree with the logic if there wasn't 1 problem with it; the bases were loaded after 4 pitches in the 9th last night. If you'd told Cooper to get on the phone and get Thornton up after the first guy was on, he'd be hanging up the phone with the bases loaded.

[Dick Allen]

I'd agree with the logic if there wasn't 1 problem with it; the bases were loaded after 4 pitches in the 9th last night. If you'd told Cooper to get on the phone and get Thornton up after the first guy was on, he'd be hanging up the phone with the bases loaded.

There are 2 rubbers in the bullpen. They could have been up the previous half inning, or right when it started and with stalling had no problem.

[caulfield12]

There are 2 rubbers in the bullpen. They could have been up the previous half inning, or right when it started and with stalling had no problem.

 

 

Why were BA and Beckham out in the bullpen with their "hunnies" during the middle of the game? Erin Andrews sighting?

Joking.

 

Actually, in Thai English, the kids use the word "rubber" when they want to say eraser and I laugh every time but thankfully they don't understand.

Edited July 22, 2009 by caulfield12

[BigEdWalsh]

Richard in the 9th would have been scary. I have no problem with Ozzie going with Jenks, he is getting paid $5.6 million this year to get outs in the 9th. The only criticism I have is why not have someone ready in case Bobby pitched like he had the previous 4 outings? He really should have been yanked after 2 hitters and certainly after he loaded them up, and most definitely after they tied it up.

Richard would have been scary in the 9th only because he's Richard and scary is what we're used to. Thanks to double plays, he retired the side in order in the 7th and the 8th. He was dealing. Why not see if he had another inning left? Chances are pretty good he did.

[chw42]

I honestly thought Ozzie kind of went a little too far with Clayton to begin with. Obviously, it worked out pretty well for Ozzie.

 

I don't see how you don't let your closer into the game when you're only up by a run. Plus, Richard isn't exactly known to be a work horse. 116 pitches is a lot.

[BearSox]

BearSox to thread

 

I would have prefered to see "Cue BearSox", but that is good enough.

 

Considering I have a former major league pitcher, and a pretty good one on my side, I think it's safe to say I win this argument

[BearSox]

Agreed. I wouldn't have gone ballistic on Ozzie if he had let Richard pitch the 9th (although I would've disagreed). But I trust that Ozzie knows his pitchers better than Black Jack. For all we know, Richard may have indicated to Ozzie that his arm was fatigued when he returned to the dugout. For all of the well-deserved criticism of Ozzie's handling of Anderson, his handling of young pitchers has been second-to-none.

That's debatable. I'd argue that Black Jack knows a whole lot more about pitching and the pitchers arm than Ozzie knows. Afterall, McDowell is a former major league pitcher and is a true baseball guy who loves and studies the game. Not saying Ozzie doesn't know a lot about pitching, but he wouldn't know what a pitcher feels like in that situation last night. Now, as far as Clayton showing signs to Ozzie of him fatiguing, that's a different story. But I'll believe that when Ozzie and Richard say so, right now it would be pure speculation.

[SkokieSox]

Tonight's game is a perfect example of why I feel the closer's role is highly overrated in today's game. Clayton Richard, 116 pitches, 6 baserunners over 8 innings. When you are cruising like that, the extra pitches won't take a toll on your body. This 100 pitch thing and 120 maximum idea is ridiculous. There's absolutely NO science behind pitch count limits...ZERO. The pitch count has been passed off as science for a number of years now, but in reality it means nothing.

 

But...because Richard was approaching 120, and it was a "save situation" ('cause remember, it's not about actually winning, it's about padding a closer's stats) we take Richard out of a game he is completely dominating. What a bunch of crap!

 

Every offense in the league would have been begging for the starter to be removed from that game. When an offense is struggling, they search for ANYTHING to mix things up. Bringing in another pitcher is just the ticket for their revival. It happens all the time.

 

Think about this: If Richard had been left in the game for the ninth inning and blew the lead, who would have been under the gun? of course Ozzie would have because he went against the grain of closing! But guess who's locker they are in front of right now? Jenks... asking "why didn't you do your job?" Welcome to pass the buck 101, otherwise known as baseball today.

 

Passing the buck? Is he calling out Ozzie? What a dick head.

[BearSox]

Passing the buck? Is he calling out Ozzie? What a dick head.

 

He's a dickhead for calling out Ozzie? He's calling it as he sees it. You disagree with him, fine. But he I don't see how this makes him a dickhead.

 

Many posters on here have called out Ozzie in the past, does that make them dickheads as well?

[lostfan]

He's a dickhead for calling out Ozzie? He's calling it as he sees it. You disagree with him, fine. But he I don't see how this makes him a dickhead.

 

Many posters on here have called out Ozzie in the past, does that make them dickheads as well?

He makes it sound like Ozzie is being a p**** and deliberately avoiding blame which I think is a pretty silly conclusion.