Black Jack McDowell on tonight's loss and closers

[BearSox]

He makes it sound like Ozzie is being a p**** and deliberately avoiding blame which I think is a pretty silly conclusion.

 

Still, does that make him a dickhead? Considering McDowell has been around different managers and clubhouses before, he knows a thing or two more than us about the way coaches think. I'm not saying he's right, but he's not a dickhead for saying it how he sees it.

[greg775]

Richard pitched a truly great game, and I think he could have pitched the ninth. I understand pitch counts and whatnot, but I surprised he pitched the eighth. I figured why not let him throw another 10-15 pitches and get a CG. Oh we

 

It's 2009.

You can't let pitch counts go up. Royals fans are upset Gil Meche went 130 one night and now he's on the DL.

I hate it as well, but starters don't go as long as the past.

 

[BearSox]

It's 2009.

You can't let pitch counts go up. Royals fans are upset Gil Meche went 130 one night and now he's on the DL.

I hate it as well, but starters don't go as long as the past.

There's the very legit argument stating that pitchers are actually more fragile now because their arms get weaker and not as conditioned because they are babied through the minors and their first couple years in the bigs. Hell, now the vast majority of pitchers get babied no matter how proven they are.

 

In high school and college, pitchers throw a ton, and I personally believe that builds up arm strength. Unless you have very poor mechanics that are conducive to arm injuries, a well trained and conditioned pitchers arm should have no problem throwing 130 pitches every 5th or 6th day. But once you start limiting them to only 70 pitches per outing their first year in rookie ball, and so on, I believe thats when you lose arm strength.

[WCSox]

That's debatable. I'd argue that Black Jack knows a whole lot more about pitching and the pitchers arm than Ozzie knows. Afterall, McDowell is a former major league pitcher and is a true baseball guy who loves and studies the game. Not saying Ozzie doesn't know a lot about pitching, but he wouldn't know what a pitcher feels like in that situation last night. Now, as far as Clayton showing signs to Ozzie of him fatiguing, that's a different story. But I'll believe that when Ozzie and Richard say so, right now it would be pure speculation.

 

Ozzie certainly knows Clayton Richard's arm a lot better than McDowell. McDowell also has a vested interest in stirring the pot to increase his readership, so I take his comments with a liberal dose of salt.

Edited July 23, 2009 by WCSox

[wsgdf_2]

There's the very legit argument stating that pitchers are actually more fragile now because their arms get weaker and not as conditioned because they are babied through the minors and their first couple years in the bigs. Hell, now the vast majority of pitchers get babied no matter how proven they are.

 

In high school and college, pitchers throw a ton, and I personally believe that builds up arm strength. Unless you have very poor mechanics that are conducive to arm injuries, a well trained and conditioned pitchers arm should have no problem throwing 130 pitches every 5th or 6th day. But once you start limiting them to only 70 pitches per outing their first year in rookie ball, and so on, I believe thats when you lose arm strength.

 

 

Even if that argument were true, then by your own logic Richard's arm has been babied and is now fragile and weak. It definitely wouldn't make sense to leave him out there for 120+ pitches now.

 

Like I said earlier - the Sox have been very good at keeping their pitchers healty during the Ozzie/Cooper/Williams regime. They seem to know what they're doing.

 

McDowell's just being a tool.

 

 

 

[BearSox]

Even if that argument were true, then by your own logic Richard's arm has been babied and is now fragile and weak. It definitely wouldn't make sense to leave him out there for 120+ pitches now.

 

Like I said earlier - the Sox have been very good at keeping their pitchers healty during the Ozzie/Cooper/Williams regime. They seem to know what they're doing.

 

McDowell's just being a tool.

 

One game isn't going to make a pitchers arm fall off unless it was already on the verge of falling off.

 

My argument was moreso directed towards over a longer period of time. I should have made that clearer.

 

Also, explain to me if my argument was false, why were pitchers a heck of a whole lot more durable even 10-15 years ago?

[BearSox]

Shortest answer possible=$$$$$

 

Teams want to protect the assets they have.

I understand that aspect and that is why pitchers are being nursed along like they are now.

 

But I want to know why if my theory is wrong, why were pitchers more durable before they started to get these huge lumps of money?

 

I'm not saying go crazy and have high schoolers pitch every 3rd day in rookie ball with 150 pitch counts. But I'd love for a team to break away from the flow, and try conditioning a pitchers arm to last longer. For High School guys, I'd still take it easy with about 80-90 pitch counts (and I'd wait the next season to have them pitch regularly. Most HS pitchers, at least the good ones, pitch a ton in the summer). But once they reach the age of 21 or 22, I'd start to have them work their way up to about 110-120 pitches a game.

 

The only team out there that will be "crazy" enough to do it will probably be the Rangers.

[jenksycat]

There's the very legit argument stating that pitchers are actually more fragile now because their arms get weaker and not as conditioned because they are babied through the minors and their first couple years in the bigs. Hell, now the vast majority of pitchers get babied no matter how proven they are.

 

In high school and college, pitchers throw a ton, and I personally believe that builds up arm strength. Unless you have very poor mechanics that are conducive to arm injuries, a well trained and conditioned pitchers arm should have no problem throwing 130 pitches every 5th or 6th day. But once you start limiting them to only 70 pitches per outing their first year in rookie ball, and so on, I believe thats when you lose arm strength.

 

Kerry Wood?

 

And I don't buy that they were "more conditioned" in the past. The old guys would smoke, get drunk and eat s***ty food every night. Never worked out. Never had trainers. Minor injuries now were career ending back then. If anything, they just don't pitch through pain as much. There's no way the old timers could throw 150 pitches every couple days and not be hurting.

[BearSox]

Kerry Wood?

 

And I don't buy that they were "more conditioned" in the past. The old guys would smoke, get drunk and eat s***ty food every night. Never worked out. Never had trainers. Minor injuries now were career ending back then. If anything, they just don't pitch through pain as much. There's no way the old timers could throw 150 pitches every couple days and not be hurting.

 

Kerry Wood threw and still does throw across his body. Anyone with his velocity who throws across their body are going to have injury problems, plain and simple. He falls into the category of bad mechanics. His injury problems were likely accelerated a bit due to heavy workload, but he was going to blow out his elbow sooner rather than later.

 

I also don't know how the "old timers" did it or felt, but a good majority of them did do it. Look at the career stats for so many of the "old timers". You got Juan Marical, Jim Bunning, Bob Gibson, Don Drysdale, Whitey Ford, Sudden Sam McDowell, Jim Kaat, Mel Stottlemyre, Gaylord Perry, Warren Spahn, etc., etc., etc.

 

I could have kept on going, but it would take forver. And I was mainly only focusing on the 50's and 60's. Keep in mind there are tons more I could have mentioned from the 1950's and before, as well up to the early 90's.

 

So, were these guys just freaks of nature, or were they able to handle throwing a lot more because their arms were conditioned to throw a lot? (IE, no one cared about pitch account, they had 4 man rotations, bullpen not nearly used as much, etc.). I personally think because they weren't babied and were told to go out there and get batters out and not worry about pitch count, their arms got stronger.

 

Plus, you only aid my argument by mentioning that the "old timers" weren't nearly as in the same shape and condition as most pitchers are today. And imagine how long some of their careers would have been if they had the same advancements in medical technology as we do today. However, I'd say their arms were more conditioned because they were able to handle throwing lots more of pitches and innings then pitchers do now a days.

 

 

[SkokieSox]

He's a dickhead for calling out Ozzie? He's calling it as he sees it. You disagree with him, fine. But he I don't see how this makes him a dickhead.

 

Many posters on here have called out Ozzie in the past, does that make them dickheads as well?

Yes

[SkokieSox]

Still, does that make him a dickhead? Considering McDowell has been around different managers and clubhouses before, he knows a thing or two more than us about the way coaches think. I'm not saying he's right, but he's not a dickhead for saying it how he sees it.

 

When you're opinion is directly criticizing a person's intention, in this case, saying Ozzie is a scared little b**** and doesn't have the balls to do "the right thing", yes, I feel fine saying he's a dick head. If his opinion was that Ozzie doesn't know what the "right thing" is, fine, have your opinion on it. He's not criticizing his intelligence on the matter, he's saying he knows better and doesn't have the guts to do it. He assumes way too much, including what is "right." I think people on here who criticize Ozzie, which I respect their opinion on or at least their right to do so, at least will admit that Ozzie isn't fearful. Black Jack was a great pitcher, but you can tell he has some bitterness about something here with Ozzie. Conclusion - dick head

[BearSox]

When you're opinion is directly criticizing a person's intention, in this case, saying Ozzie is a scared little b**** and doesn't have the balls to do "the right thing", yes, I feel fine saying he's a dick head. If his opinion was that Ozzie doesn't know what the "right thing" is, fine, have your opinion on it. He's not criticizing his intelligence on the matter, he's saying he knows better and doesn't have the guts to do it. He assumes way too much, including what is "right." I think people on here who criticize Ozzie, which I respect their opinion on or at least their right to do so, at least will admit that Ozzie isn't fearful. Black Jack was a great pitcher, but you can tell he has some bitterness about something here with Ozzie. Conclusion - dick head

 

I got the impression that he was saying Ozzie did know he should have let Richard finish it, but because it'd be going against the grain to not put the closer in, Ozzie went with the closer.

 

I guess I can see where you think he's calling Ozzie a b****, but I don't think so.

[YASNY]

I understand that aspect and that is why pitchers are being nursed along like they are now.

 

But I want to know why if my theory is wrong, why were pitchers more durable before they started to get these huge lumps of money?

 

I'm not saying go crazy and have high schoolers pitch every 3rd day in rookie ball with 150 pitch counts. But I'd love for a team to break away from the flow, and try conditioning a pitchers arm to last longer. For High School guys, I'd still take it easy with about 80-90 pitch counts (and I'd wait the next season to have them pitch regularly. Most HS pitchers, at least the good ones, pitch a ton in the summer). But once they reach the age of 21 or 22, I'd start to have them work their way up to about 110-120 pitches a game.

 

The only team out there that will be "crazy" enough to do it will probably be the Rangers.

 

I recall Billy Martin, when he was the manager of the A's "breaking away from flow" and pitched the hell out his starting rotation. And while I can't remember the names of the pitchers, that may be why I don't. They had a pretty decent young staff back then, iirc and they just kind of petered out. Similar to Wood and Pryor after Baker did his number on them.

[whitesoxfan101]

Yes

"If you call out Ozzie, you're a dickhead". That's great support for your argument.