Can I get a Thome extension?

[BearSox]

Nix is a good option for a utility guy. Probably nothing more though, from everything I have seen.

 

He's got a better shot at becoming a decent every-day player than Fields does.

[BearSox]

I'd like to see them let Contreras, Dye, Thome, and Jenks all walk next year. 2010 is time to start reshaping this group.

 

Jenks?

 

1.) He isn't a FA

2.) If Jenks isn't with the team, it's because we traded him.

[santo=dorf]

No, it's not that simple. Yes, of course walking is better than making an out, but I think everyone would agree that getting on base is only as valuable as how often it generates runs for you, and Thome's high OBP/OPS is misleading in terms of his Runs Created. It means nothing to your team if you take 20 two-out walks and are consistently stranded at first base because

 

a) you can't run

B) the offense behind you doesn't typically hit safely twice in a row.

 

My entire point was to say that of the 150 points that are boosting his OBP/OPS, more than 2/3rds of the time, they are just sort of meaningless boosters, such as a two out bases empty walk. Check out the box scores - that happened probably 20 times. I'd almost rather have a guy who hits .300 and has a .350 OBP, especially if he's far more proficient at hitting doubles and can steal a base. Thome's MO is homer, walk, strikeout or occasionally lucky single through the shift.

 

I don't think anyone would want to mess with the lineup this year, especially while everyone's running about as well as expected, but going forward, we do NOT need three slow dhs on this team and Thome is on schedule for the most precipitous decline even if he can be gotten for cheap.

How many times did Thome not making an out extend the inning in which a run scored (not including Thome's run like you said)?

 

I.E. Thome walking with two outs allows Konerko to single in the guy who was moved to second.

 

Do people really want the Carl Everett route of not walking too much resulting in a whopping 87 RBI's out of the #3 spot?

 

Frank Thoams was still a very effective DH when he was batting 30-50 points below his career average.

[DBAHO]

Thome's got a GPA of .293 so far this season, so he's been a pretty valuable hitter so far.

 

I'd wait til the end of the season, see if he can continue the way he has hit so far, and if so, definitely re-sign him for another season.

 

Someone's gotta provide some power from the left side of the plate, and there probably won't be that many better DH options out there come FA time.

[Marty34]

Jenks?

 

1.) He isn't a FA

2.) If Jenks isn't with the team, it's because we traded him.

 

If you keep Jenks he's owed a minimum of $5M next year. If they don't deal him by the deadline, I wouldn't offer him arbitration next year.

[Marty34]

Fair enough - who would you like to take their places in OF, DH, rotation, and bullpen?

 

Too early to say, but the way this division is shaping up in the short term there's no reason why they can't rebuild and contend at the same time.

 

[Greg Hibbard]

How many times did Thome not making an out extend the inning in which a run scored (not including Thome's run like you said)?

 

I.E. Thome walking with two outs allows Konerko to single in the guy who was moved to second.

 

Do people really want the Carl Everett route of not walking too much resulting in a whopping 87 RBI's out of the #3 spot?

 

Frank Thoams was still a very effective DH when he was batting 30-50 points below his career average.

 

Well that's all included in the second analysis I did.

 

Thome's walked 11 times to eventually score himself, and 10 times to eventually score someone else (out of 59 total walks). Obviously, on friday both of his walks were with 2 outs and led to nada. It's that kind of statistic that I think may really be more meaningless to this team. Thome's walks with two outs overstate his OBP and thus overstate his value, when only 4/22 times have they resulted in either him scoring, a pinch runner scoring (the milwaukee game), or a runner on ahead of him scoring. So he walks the most with 2 outs, and usually the least happens.

 

I don't want the Carl Everett route - I want people to recognize that versatility has value, and with Thome we have absolutely no versatility. I'd rather have a guy we could DH that could also play the field, could run a bit, and could also maybe hit some more singles and doubles at the expense of maybe not walking quite as much. Like I hinted at earlier, Thome seems feast or famine. One day we have 2 huge bombs and 7 RBI, and then we get a four-five game drought - in which he might draw a walk per game, but does not score or score anyone else, which keeps his stat line looking good.

 

The OBP is impressive, especially considering his age, but I fear the top of his value is .260/.400/.500/.900 and to have that line with 17 bombs while only scoring 42 runs for the team seems a little bewildering, until you realize he's got almost absolutely no way of ever being on second or third base for the hitters behind him.

 

One of the box scores I checked out even had Paulie doubling after a two-out Thome walk, which of course Jim was incapable of scoring on and eventually stranded.

[WCSox]

He's got a better shot at becoming a decent every-day player than Fields does.

 

LOL, based on what? Nix's awesome .268 career OBP? Even Fields is doing better than that, and has also shown power at the ML level (23 homers two years ago). And with Beckham looking more like an eventual middle infielder than a 3B, Nix would have a lot more competition in the middle infield than Fields would at 3B.

 

[BearSox]

LOL, based on what? Nix's awesome .268 career OBP? Even Fields is doing better than that, and has also shown power at the ML level (23 homers two years ago). And with Beckham looking more like an eventual middle infielder than a 3B, Nix would have a lot more competition in the middle infield than Fields would at 3B.

 

Nix has shown he's a competent baseball player and his swing and approach at bat lead to potential success.

 

Fields is about as clueless as you can get at bat, and has a god awful swing and approach. If he hasn't learned how to swing a bat yet, how will he ever learn?

[WCSox]

Nix has shown he's a competent baseball player and his swing and approach at bat lead to potential success.

 

Fields is about as clueless as you can get at bat, and has a god awful swing and approach. If he hasn't learned how to swing a bat yet, how will he ever learn?

 

That's a nice emotional argument, but the truth is that Fields has had a lot more success at the plate at the ML level than Nix has. They're both just shy of 27 (Fields is actually 4 months younger), so I don't see Nix suddenly morphing into Gordon Beckham. Maybe Nix will get it together and post a .300 OBP at some point in the next year or two, but there's no evidence at this point to suggest that he's a better long-term option as a starter than Fields.

 

That said, Nix has a really good shot to be a utility infielder for the Sox next season. His defensive versatility is a plus.

Edited July 25, 2009 by WCSox

[BearSox]

That's a nice emotional argument, but the truth is that Fields has had a lot more success at the plate at the ML level than Nix has. They're both just shy of 27 (Fields is actually 4 months younger), so I don't see Nix suddenly morphing into Gordon Beckham. Maybe Nix will get it together and post a .300 OBP at some point in the next year or two, but there's no evidence at this point to suggest that he's a better long-term option as a starter than Fields.

 

That said, Nix has a really good shot to be a utility infielder for the Sox next season. His defensive versatility is a plus.

Besides 07 in his first go around the league, what has Fields shown you that shows he has any shot at becoming a decent MLB starter. All I've seen this year is a guy who looks like he just started playing baseball.

[WCSox]

Besides 07 in his first go around the league, what has Fields shown you that shows he has any shot at becoming a decent MLB starter. All I've seen this year is a guy who looks like he just started playing baseball.

 

Fields has at least shown me '07. What has Nix ever done at the ML level to show that he's more worthy of a spot in the lineup?

 

And despite not hitting well this season, Fields' numbers still trump Nix's. That's pretty sad.

 

Edited July 26, 2009 by WCSox

[BearSox]

Fields has at least shown me '07. What has Nix ever done at the ML level to show that he's more worthy of a spot in the lineup?

 

All you got are minor league numbers as he's never got a shot to start everday except for the first month of 08. If I had to bet money on who has a better shot at becoming a decent everyday player, it'd be Nix. At least Nix has shown basic fundamentals, Fields has shown that he has a good arm and good power if the pitcher doesn't throw harder than 90.

[WCSox]

All you got are minor league numbers as he's never got a shot to start everday except for the first month of 08.

 

The fact that Nix didn't get a single major-league at-bat until last season tells you a lot about his chances of being a starter.

 

If I had to bet money on who has a better shot at becoming a decent everyday player, it'd be Nix. At least Nix has shown basic fundamentals, Fields has shown that he has a good arm and good power if the pitcher doesn't throw harder than 90.

 

That's a compelling emotional argument. Too bad that you don't have any results to back it up. Fields' horribly-flawed swing produced 23 big-league dingers in 373 at-bats two years ago, and the starting 3B position this year. Meanwhile, Nix's "basic fundamentals" have resulted in him being mired in the minors for most of his career, and a whopping .268 OBP when he finally did get some time in the bigs as a utility guy. It's pretty bad when Josh "Strikeout Machine" Fields is getting on base a lot more than you.

 

[lostfan]

The fact that Nix didn't get a single major-league at-bat until last season tells you a lot about his chances of being a starter.

No, actually. Doesn't really tell you much of anything.

[WCSox]

No, actually. Doesn't really tell you much of anything.

 

Nix is going to be 28 next summer and has done nothing to distinguish himself at the ML level. Maybe he'll be the next Roy Hobbs. But his resume suggests that he'll be the next Dewayne Wise.

 

[prochisox]

Nix is great with the glove, maybe can't hit for a high average, but does show plate discipline. Josh Fields may have a better bat, but defensively is a liability. But Josh does backup PK and that will be his role for now, unless GB or PK get hurt, or if he gets traded. I would like to keep both on this team for now because they both are good in the roles Ozzie has put them in.

[SoxAce]

The Josh Fields hate on this board is sickening sometimes. Jesus. Part of me feels bad cause I love Fields, and still love the man's potential in the bigs. They've changed his swing since college, but I still think it was for the better, and he has shown flashes this year, especially in spring training. I still believe his future is bright, just a matter of if it's here or not.

[WCSox]

Nix is great with the glove, maybe can't hit for a high average, but does show plate discipline. Josh Fields may have a better bat, but defensively is a liability. But Josh does backup PK and that will be his role for now, unless GB or PK get hurt, or if he gets traded. I would like to keep both on this team for now because they both are good in the roles Ozzie has put them in.

 

I like Nix in the role of utility infielder for next season. He can't get on base regularly, but he has some power and his defense is very solid (not unlike a recent former Sox infielder). Since the Sox missed their window of opportunity to get good trade value for Fields, they're stuck with him now (he has one option left, so there's still some flexibility there). Josh needs to go the Carlos Lee route and learn a corner OF position. If Thome is let go and Dye moves to DH, Josh might work as a temporary stopgap in LF or RF.

 

[lostfan]

Nix is going to be 28 next summer and has done nothing to distinguish himself at the ML level. Maybe he'll be the next Roy Hobbs. But his resume suggests that he'll be the next Dewayne Wise.

I like Nix, but I'm not suggesting he's going to break out and start hitting .280 with 20 homers if he is an everyday player (although watching him play defense is awesome). Like you, I really like him as a utility infielder on this team. But in and of itself, the sentence I quoted from you doesn't tell you much. There could be any number of reasons he hasn't had a shot as a starter in the majors. Maybe the player was crowded out. Maybe the player got hurt in the minors. Maybe the player ran into problems in the minors and had to work on his game. Maybe he did get a shot to start with a team, performed solidly and looked like he'd get the job in spring training, then got hurt and by the time he came back he'd lost the job (hi Nix). In any case Nix has had only had 195 PAs in the majors, most of them coming this year. That's actually not many more than Gordon Beckham has had.

[WCSox]

But in and of itself, the sentence I quoted from you doesn't tell you much. There could be any number of reasons he hasn't had a shot as a starter in the majors.

 

That's true. No argument there.

 

But there's no logic behind the argument that a guy who will be in his late 20's next year and has accomplished jack squat at the major-league level will eventually be more successful than the guy in the late 20's who has had one good 2/3 of a season at the major-league level, but is deemed to have inferior hitting mechanics. That's just illogical cheerleading. The reality is that neither of these guys have lived up to their draft positions, neither have shown that they can hit consistently enough in the bigs to warrant a spot in the Sox starting lineup, and both of their windows of opportunity are quickly closing.

Edited July 26, 2009 by WCSox

[lostfan]

That's true. No argument there.

 

But there's no logic behind the argument that a guy who will be in his late 20's next year and has accomplished jack squat at the major-league level will eventually be more successful than the guy in the late 20's who has had one good 2/3 of a season at the major-league level, but is deemed to have inferior hitting mechanics. That's just illogical cheerleading. The reality is that neither of these guys have lived up to their draft positions, neither have shown that they can hit consistently enough in the bigs to warrant a spot in the Sox starting lineup, and both of their windows of opportunity are quickly closing.

Agreed, and I'm a Nix fan. I have hope that Nix somehow figures it out but I'm not expecting it to happen.

[BearSox]

That's true. No argument there.

 

But there's no logic behind the argument that a guy who will be in his late 20's next year and has accomplished jack squat at the major-league level will eventually be more successful than the guy in the late 20's who has had one good 2/3 of a season at the major-league level, but is deemed to have inferior hitting mechanics. That's just illogical cheerleading. The reality is that neither of these guys have lived up to their draft positions, neither have shown that they can hit consistently enough in the bigs to warrant a spot in the Sox starting lineup, and both of their windows of opportunity are quickly closing.

How's that illogical cheerleading? Nix has much better fundamentals than Fields, you can't deny that.

[caulfield12]

Nix is the perfect fit as a utility guy.

 

Fields either needs to be playing 3B everyday in Chicago or Charlotte OR traded for the highest possible return.

 

[WCSox]

How's that illogical cheerleading? Nix has much better fundamentals than Fields, you can't deny that.

 

The crux of your argument seems to be that, despite putting up an impressive 2/3 of a season two years ago by displaying 20+ HR power and earning the starting 3B job back in April, Josh Fields is probably not going to start for the Sox again because his hitting mechanics are flawed. On the other hand, Jayson Nix, who you ague has much better hitting mechanics, obviously has a much better chance of becoming a major-league starter, despite the fact that Nix has never actually done anything remotely impressive with his bat in the bigs (career .613 OPS).

 

Is that what you're trying to argue, or am I missing something?

Edited July 27, 2009 by WCSox