Why are KW and JR "crying poor"???

[caulfield12]

 

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2009/33/baseba...eball_Rank.html

 

 

 

The White Sox have climbed from 16th to 14th to 10th in "most valuable" franchises over a 3 year period. We're also tied with the SF Giants in 8th place for revenues produced. (But because we lost Pontiac and Motorola and moved our ST home, we need to pinch pennies???)

 

I looked this up because I came across a Twins' message board today and saw this post:

 

"Countless times,we have been told that the teams business model is to spend fifty percent of total revenue on team payroll. Forbes magazine reported revenue of 158 million generated by the team last year. That figure should equate to a 80 million dollar payroll, but instead we are at 63 million A Hording (sic) of 17 million by (GM) Bill Smith. We still have to hear on a weekly bases (sic) that the Twins do not want to spend money on this player or that player. I wish our beat writers would bring this up."

 

If the White Sox adhered to this same approach, that would put our payroll right around $98 million, which is "spot" on I think or within 3-5 million of the actual number either way (depending on if you believe the Phillies are sending "secret" money for Thome as part of a handshake deal with Gillick). We've been speculating about being in the $70-85 million range for next year, but what's the justification for not building a dominant team and really growing revenues by dominating the division for the next 2-3 seasons...pushing attendance back to 2006 levels.

 

With the Indians at 18th (and declining for sure heading into 2010), the Tigers at 21st, and Twins at 22nd and the Royals at 28th, now is the time to step on the necks of the rest of the division...not to cry poor and insult the fanbase.

 

The fans are now coming out again because they have an exciting/competitive team on the field that's capable of beating any team in baseball right now...a little bit reminiscent of the 2003 season where we were average or below average for 3-4 months and then peaked late, only to be overtaken by the pesky Twins as Loaiza wore down late.

 

I am feeling that the White Sox will definitely be making some moves and not resting on their recent laurels.

[JohnCangelosi]

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2009/33/baseba...eball_Rank.html

 

 

 

The White Sox have climbed from 16th to 14th to 10th in "most valuable" franchises over a 3 year period. We're also tied with the SF Giants in 8th place for revenues produced. (But because we lost Pontiac and Motorola and moved our ST home, we need to pinch pennies???)

 

I looked this up because I came across a Twins' message board today and saw this post:

 

"Countless times,we have been told that the teams business model is to spend fifty percent of total revenue on team payroll. Forbes magazine reported revenue of 158 million generated by the team last year. That figure should equate to a 80 million dollar payroll, but instead we are at 63 million A Hording (sic) of 17 million by (GM) Bill Smith. We still have to hear on a weekly bases (sic) that the Twins do not want to spend money on this player or that player. I wish our beat writers would bring this up."

 

If the White Sox adhered to this same approach, that would put our payroll right around $98 million, which is "spot" on I think or within 3-5 million of the actual number either way (depending on if you believe the Phillies are sending "secret" money for Thome as part of a handshake deal with Gillick). We've been speculating about being in the $70-85 million range for next year, but what's the justification for not building a dominant team and really growing revenues by dominating the division for the next 2-3 seasons...pushing attendance back to 2006 levels.

 

With the Indians at 18th (and declining for sure heading into 2010), the Tigers at 21st, and Twins at 22nd and the Royals at 28th, now is the time to step on the necks of the rest of the division...not to cry poor and insult the fanbase.

 

The fans are now coming out again because they have an exciting/competitive team on the field that's capable of beating any team in baseball right now...a little bit reminiscent of the 2003 season where we were average or below average for 3-4 months and then peaked late, only to be overtaken by the pesky Twins as Loaiza wore down late.

 

I am feeling that the White Sox will definitely be making some moves and not resting on their recent laurels.

 

I think at time JR uses his investors "wisely" by saying they need to report to them and deliver dividends as well etc. At the same time, a valuation doesn't mean s&*t on paper, you probably can't even get a loan against the shares these days from the banks.

 

I know for a fact, as I have 25% ownership interest in a company that is worth a lot of money, but it's private, like the Sox, and in the end it won't pay the bills at the end of the day until that position is ultimately sold or serious dividends realized.

[caulfield12]

FWIW, MLB has only seen a 4% decline in attendance this year.

 

Compared to the 20-30-40-50% losses in housing valuations. If anything, I would think an MLB or NFL franchise at present time would be as close as you could get to putting your eggs in bonds and precious metals. A pretty safe history since the 1980's of a rising tide floating all the boats on the water.

 

Of course, homeowners and speculators believed for 30+ year that housing values would continue to rise and rise, that owning a home was the safest and best investment of all.

 

It's a lot easier to give a valuation (and some approximate guesses on bids) for sports franchise than NASDAQ or dot.com stocks 7-8 years ago or CDO's/credit defaults/derivatives/junk bonds in the last 2-3 years.

 

If you look at the Bottom 10 franchises and compare where they are now with 10 years ago, it's pretty amazing. Maybe the thing that Selig (as a former owner) would be most proud of, from a business/financial soundness of the game perspective.

 

Even all the steroids stories and the fall of numerous stars has not really driven down attendance. If anything, people will continue to seek out alternative forms of entertainment (movies, on-line, sports, etc.) to divert them from their real-life problems. While not invoking James Earl Jones' words in "Field of Dreams" completely, the words of his bleacher speech ring just as true today as they did 20 years ago or in 1919.

 

 

[CanOfCorn]

Oh look...another "White Sox are cheap/crying poor/won't spend money" thread.

[NorthSideSox72]

Oh look...another "White Sox are cheap/crying poor/won't spend money" thread.

Seriously, this topic is so tired, and the idea that they are doing penny-ante stuff is just patently false. This is a team with a strong payroll.

 

Also, the first post of the thread says more or less the opposite of what the title of the thread indicates, so maybe a title change is in order.

 

[Disco72]

Seriously, this topic is so tired, and the idea that they are doing penny-ante stuff is just patently false. This is a team with a strong payroll.

 

Also, the first post of the thread says more or less the opposite of what the title of the thread indicates, so maybe a title change is in order.

 

A change in title is definitely appropriate. As you said, the original post says the Sox are basically spending exactly what they should be on payroll, if the revenue numbers are accurate. It confirms what KW says that the Sox are basically neutral in terms of revenue/payroll.

[Balta1701]

Frankly, they're not poor and they're not crying poor. They don't spend stupid money and people get pissed off when they don't spend stupid money to bring in players like the dominant team on the northside does. It's worked wonders for them right? That LF they have is totally worth his contract.

 

It's the "Wife getting mad her husband won't buy her a BMW" scenario.

[CanOfCorn]

Frankly, they're not poor and they're not crying poor. They don't spend stupid money and people get pissed off when they don't spend stupid money to bring in players like the dominant team on the northside does. It's worked wonders for them right? That OUTFIELD they have is totally worth their contracts.

 

It's the "Wife getting mad her husband won't buy her a BMW" scenario.

 

 

Fixed.

[3 BeWareTheNewSox 5]

Sox should be called on it, KW had no right to make those comments. Think about it, 2 years ago Buehrle was basically gone until he went down in his demands, Kenny even made comments that the trade was in place and Mark was really lucky that he came down. He had this really angry tone about it too (like 'you all better not rip on me if we live to regret this). That's how we treat a Sox legend?

[caulfield12]

Let's say our revenues SOMEHOW fell to the level of the Twins in 2008 ($158 million)...we out-earned them by $40 million even though our attendance numbers have been pretty similar over the last 2-3 seasons.

 

We SHOULD still be spending $80 million, but Kenny is "acting" like we could be in the mid 60's or 70's.

 

The only evidence that argues otherwise for KW is the Peavy acquisition. So we'll see if they take on a significant long-term contract in the next week, before the trading deadline.

[lostfan]

[shipps]

 

lostfan...stop killing yourself...you have commited suicide more than a Papa Roach fan club today.

[lostfan]

lostfan...stop killing yourself...you have commited suicide more than a Papa Roach fan club today.

That was my first time shooting myself in the face today

[CanOfCorn]

Let's say our revenues SOMEHOW fell to the level of the Twins in 2008 ($158 million)...we out-earned them by $40 million even though our attendance numbers have been pretty similar over the last 2-3 seasons.

 

We SHOULD still be spending $80 million, but Kenny is "acting" like we could be in the mid 60's or 70's.

 

The only evidence that argues otherwise for KW is the Peavy acquisition. So we'll see if they take on a significant long-term contract in the next week, before the trading deadline.

 

Well...I SHOULD be a billionaire, but I'm "acting" like a middle-class worker.

[caulfield12]

The fact is, even though we're consistently in the teens (right now at 18) in attendance, we're a top 8-10 team in terms of generating revenue.

 

The attendance argument by JR and KW is always a bogus one because of this.

 

But they've done a great job of brainwashing the fanbase into agreeing with them...that they're spending incredibly lavishly. Really, they just are spending what they should have in 2006-2008 based on the lower ($65 million) payroll in 2005 and all the profits generated by the 2005/06 seasons.

 

Many studies have been done showing that the positive effects of winning a World Series on revenue production and ticket sales last for five seasons following the victory.

[shipps]

That was my first time shooting myself in the face today

 

Oh I must be remembering yesterdays suicide.

[caulfield12]

So, will we really fall 20% in revenue generation from 2008 to the 2009 season?

 

Will we really spend $80 million or more going into 2010, if we "only" generate $160 million instead of $195-200 million?

[GreatScott82]

I think KW is still going to make a significant splash at the deadline. There is evidence of the recent attendance increase and Buerhle's Perfect Game should improve a little bit as well. The team is currently battling for 1st and shows no signs of slowing down. You potentially have Dye, Contreras, Dotel and Thome coming off the books after this season. Thats a total of about 40 million. Granit you still owe arbitration to Danks, CQ and Carasco which will likely be about 15 million total. So thats about 25 million right there cleared up. So if KW and JR are content of retaining the current water mark of salary, they would essentially have about 20-25 million to spend on pieces. A huge piece could come a bit early this season at the trade deadline. Honestly our lineup is solid 1-9 (thanks to Pod's unheard of return and the rapid progression of Beckham). We need a starting pitcher if this team is going to make a run. Richard has showed flashes of what he could be. Poreda also has shown some flashes, but also showed us he isn't ready yet. Colon is pretty much on his last leg. Torres seems decent but nothing fancy. Contreras is nothing more than a 5th starter. This team NEEDS a legitmate top of the rotation starting pitcher if they intend to compete for a World Championship. Don't let KW or JR fool you about money. If anything i truly believe it as a cheap marketing ploy to get more fans to go out to the game. We currently have the pieces in the farm to get that 'guy'. Who will that guy be? I'm not sure. But i'm confident KW isn't satisfied with this current starting rotation. . He is making his phone calls. Stay tuned, something will get done.

[caulfield12]

Agree with everything you said except for the significance of Carrasco and our concern about him getting a payday in arbitration. We let a much better pitcher in David Riske get away without offering him arbitration. I suppose it could be a bit dependent on what happens with Dotel/Linebrink and Pena, but keeping Carrasco around is issue #10-15 on KW's offseason board.

 

Yes, Ozzie likes him a lot, but he's not an integral part of our future either. If KW thinks he'll be too expensive, he will give that position to Nunez, Santeliz, Omogrosso, Link, Rodriguez, Russell, Fr. Hernandez, etc.

Edited July 24, 2009 by caulfield12

[TheBigHurt]

Seriously, this topic is so tired, and the idea that they are doing penny-ante stuff is just patently false. This is a team with a strong payroll.

 

Also, the first post of the thread says more or less the opposite of what the title of the thread indicates, so maybe a title change is in order.

 

I'm not the most knowledgeable with the payroll, but really? Seems to me whenever any actually solid player is brought up, the reply is always the same: "Too much money." Hell, I may be wrong, but I swear I remember Willy f***ing Taveras being complained about here because of his price tag which I don't think was very high at all, but a little more than what people projected he was worth.

 

Again, I could be wrong, but money seems to always be the first thing people talk about in reference to a play when it comes to this organization.

[Balta1701]

Again, I could be wrong, but money seems to always be the first thing people talk about in reference to a play when it comes to this organization.

Because spending money wildly with no plan is a terrible way to do business and it wrecks your franchise real quick if you don't have Yankee resources.

 

Where would we be if we'd signed Soriano? Or Hunter? To those contracts? We might well have been dumping a lot more salary. People still complain about dumping Swisher and Vazquez, although the money saved was used. We might have moved both and not signed Viciedo and Ramirez. Or gone for an easier sign than Jordan Danks or Gordon Beckham.

[caulfield12]

The Hunter contract could have been crippling in years 4 and 5, but how valuable would he have been in 2008/09/10?

 

Probably not worth the risk at his age.

 

Fukudome and Rowand, we really lucked out on, not signing.

 

Of course, if we miss the playoffs, everyone will say we would have made it with Swisher and Javy.

[Dick Allen]

The Hunter contract could have been crippling in years 4 and 5, but how valuable would he have been in 2008/09/10?

 

Probably not worth the risk at his age.

 

Fukudome and Rowand, we really lucked out on, not signing.

 

Of course, if we miss the playoffs, everyone will say we would have made it with Swisher and Javy.

Javy is 7-7 with a 2.99 ERA in the NL with a team just below contention. Sounds just about where anyone who has noticed his career would think he would be. If they trade him to an AL contender, I bet his ERA the rest of the season would be at least 5.00 if not 6.00, he showed who he was down the stretch last year.

 

Swisher in CF wasn't going to work. His numbers are a little better this year. I just noticed he's hitting .198 at home.

Edited July 25, 2009 by Dick Allen

[3 BeWareTheNewSox 5]

Javy sucks when you have to rely on him. Javy taking the place of Clayton Richard starts is f***ing gold

[TheBigHurt]

Because spending money wildly with no plan is a terrible way to do business and it wrecks your franchise real quick if you don't have Yankee resources.

 

Where would we be if we'd signed Soriano? Or Hunter? To those contracts? We might well have been dumping a lot more salary. People still complain about dumping Swisher and Vazquez, although the money saved was used. We might have moved both and not signed Viciedo and Ramirez. Or gone for an easier sign than Jordan Danks or Gordon Beckham.

 

Well, I'm not necessarily talking numbers like THAT; I laughed hard at the news the Cubs had signed Soriano to the type of deal they did. I'm not talking Barry Zito like numbers (although look at where HE is now, lol).