iamshack Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 03:12 PM) Keeping Beckham at the bottom of the order and taking pressure off of him (when he must be here out of sheer necessity) is part of that development process. Beckham's only 22. How many 22-year-olds are in the bigs? How many of them hit at the top of the lineup? I have to agree with whomever said Beckham doesn't look like a kid who feels a whole lot of pressure. I don't see how moving him to the 2-hole would affect him. My concern with this move has more to do with its affect on Alexei than on Gordon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 03:08 PM) Edited for accuracy Both have 122 home runs since thome first got here in 2006. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 01:10 PM) How can I have an intelligent conversation with some who is not intelligent in regards to the topic at hand? "Explain that one." Nice veiled personal attack. Oh, and that's "with regard to." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 03:14 PM) After they failed repeatedly and questioned Ozzie about it... That would be a little different. I think it's more a coincidence. I think it has to do that when players fail over what he deems to be a long enough period of time, Ozzie calls them out and says they better play better or they'll get sent down. He does it with all the young kids, whether they open their mouths or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 03:12 PM) Keeping Beckham at the bottom of the order and taking pressure off of him (when he must be here out of sheer necessity) is part of that development process. Beckham's only 22. How many 22-year-olds are in the bigs? How many of them hit at the top of the lineup? Justin Upton is 21 and hits 3rd for the Diamondbacks. Jay Bruce was 21 last year and hitting towards the top of the Reds order. Colby Rasmus is 22 and hits 2nd for the Cardinals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 01:14 PM) I have to agree with whomever said Beckham doesn't look like a kid who feels a whole lot of pressure. I don't see how moving him to the 2-hole would affect him. I agree that Beckham certainly comes off as more mature than his age. Maybe that's the case (as it was with Jeter). But if it's not, you run the risk of stunting Beckham's development. Do you want to take that chance on the best infield prospect you've had in 20 years? I don't. I'd hit him 8th or 9th this year, let him develop without the added pressure, and then put more responsibility on him next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (qwerty @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 03:15 PM) Both have 122 home runs since thome first got here in 2006. Dye has more home runs since the beginning of 2008 than anyone in the AL other than Miguel Cabrera, who was 1 ahead of him heading into Friday evening's game, according to the Tigers broadcasters. Dye is the better hitter, which leads to more home runs. However, Jimmy is still a very professional hitter and probably has more natural power than JD. JD just squares up more balls than Jimmy. Edited July 28, 2009 by iamshack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 03:19 PM) I agree that Beckham certainly comes off as more mature than his age. Maybe that's the case (as it was with Jeter). But if it's not, you run the risk of stunting Beckham's development. Do you want to take that chance on the best infield prospect you've had in 20 years? I don't. I'd hit him 8th or 9th this year, let him develop without the added pressure, and then put more responsibility on him next season. You've already done that by forcing him to play a position in the major leagues which he NEVER played before his career. Do you really think they are concerned about stunting his growth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 03:22 PM) You've already done that by forcing him to play a position in the major leagues which he NEVER played before his career. Do you really think they are concerned about stunting his growth? Or maybe they don't want to double the pressure by making him hit #2 AND adding a new position to his resume? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 03:56 PM) Thanks for making my point. Now tell us why he's hitting 4th in the lineup with a .400 OBP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 01:17 PM) Justin Upton is 21 and hits 3rd for the Diamondbacks. Jay Bruce was 21 last year and hitting towards the top of the Reds order. Colby Rasmus is 22 and hits 2nd for the Cardinals. Upton is a third-year player, so his situation isn't comparable to Beckham's. Bruce hit high in the Reds' order because the Reds have no talent in their lineup and a clueless manager. Rasmus is a solid comparison, but has played all of this season in the bigs. Beckham has been in Chicago for barely a month and a half. I'm not saying that young players shouldn't hit high in the lineup in their rookie year. I'm saying that if you go that route with a ridiculously-talented first-round pick, you'd damn well better be sure that he can handle it. I'd rather that Ozzie not take that chance this year. Especially with Alexei filling that role reasonably well right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 01:23 PM) Or maybe they don't want to double the pressure by making him hit #2 AND adding a new position to his resume? Bingo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Optimizing your lineup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son of a rude Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 I hate the "added pressure" argument. Every player is expected to produce, no matter what spot in the lineup they are. I don't see how moving him up to the 2 spot will add much pressure... Worst case scenario he would be moved back down in the lineup. His job isn't on the line or anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 03:27 PM) Upton is a third-year player, so his situation isn't comparable to Beckham's. Bruce hit high in the Reds' order because the Reds have no talent in their lineup and a clueless manager. Rasmus is a solid comparison, but has played all of this season in the bigs. Beckham has been in Chicago for barely a month and a half. I'm not saying that young players shouldn't hit high in the lineup in their rookie year. I'm saying that if you go that route with a ridiculously-talented first-round pick, you'd damn well better be sure that he can handle it. I'd rather that Ozzie not take that chance this year. Especially with Alexei filling that role reasonably well right now. The Reds have no talent? Are you not aware of Brandon Phillips and Joey Votto and Chris Dickerson? They also had Dunn last season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 03:23 PM) Or maybe they don't want to double the pressure by making him hit #2 AND adding a new position to his resume? Don't you believe that if the kid can learn 3rd base on the fly, while also making error after error after error (and probably being more embarrassed than he has ever been in sports in his entire life, for that matter), and still hit major league pitching at the age of 22 at this clip tends to show he is a really special kid? I mean, come on here guys, if the kid can hit, he can hit! He has an .840 OPS in his first 150 ABs as a 22 year old with less than 1 year of pro ball under his belt! And that is with an 0-13 start. He still faces major league pitching down at the bottom of the order. The big jump here was from AA to the mlb pitching and he has managed to hit it very well. I sincerely doubt changing his position in the order is suddenly going to make him look like a fool out there. I see one thing offensively that he needs to work on, and that is his approach against outstanding pitchers. You can tell he is still a bit hesitant and less confident against the best pitchers. Guys like Nathan he looks completely different against than your average pitcher. Once he gets the confidence to realize he can hit the elite pitchers, he will be really cooking... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (qwerty @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 03:28 PM) Optimizing your lineup. Please. OBP is not needed in the 2-hole. A .330 OBP is way better in front of the heart of your lineup than a .371 OBP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (son of a rude @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 04:29 PM) I hate the "added pressure" argument. Every player is expected to produce, no matter what spot in the lineup they are. I don't see how moving him up to the 2 spot will add much pressure... Worst case scenario he would be moved back down in the lineup. His job isn't on the line or anything. I hate that argument too actually. This is the same logic that led to Wise leading off the year for the Sox when at the time Getz showed he was capable of doing it at least temporarily. Wise sucks hard and forces Getz to have to lead off, and voila! Getz hits .340 for that month with a .396 OBP. When he finally does tail off it's for reasons unrelated to "pressure" (i.e., having scouting reports catch up to him and having to adjust). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 01:29 PM) The Reds have no talent? Are you not aware of Brandon Phillips and Joey Votto and Chris Dickerson? The Reds currently have ONE player with an OPS of .800 or higher in their lineup (Votto). For comparison's sake, the Sox have four. Because of this, the Sox don't need to rush a raw rookie into the top of the lineup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 03:32 PM) Please. OBP is not needed in the 2-hole. A .330 OBP is way better in front of the heart of your lineup than a .371 OBP. You have been very childish recently, if you have not noticed. Surprised anyone is even bothering to respond at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 03:34 PM) The Reds currently have ONE player with an OPS of .800 or higher in their lineup (Votto). For comparison's sake, the Sox have four. Because of this, the Sox don't need to rush a raw rookie into the top of the lineup. I wasn't talking about this season. I was talking about last season. LAST season, when Bruce was batting higher in the order, they had 3 players with an OPS over .800. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (qwerty @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 03:34 PM) You have been very childish recently, if you have not noticed. Surprised anyone is even bothering to respond at this point. I'm a sarcastic asshole, I never asked you or anyone else to respond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son of a rude Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 The Reds currently have ONE player with an OPS of .800 or higher in their lineup (Votto). For comparison's sake, the Sox have four. Because of this, the Sox don't need to rush a raw rookie into the top of the lineup. Come on, "rush a raw rookie into the top of the lineup." He has proven his "raw" skills can get it done in the major leagues. It's not like they are freaking promoting him to a new level. He has already handled the transition from AA to the majors well. How will changing his spot in the line up affect him that much? It would make the team better. He has a better average, OBP, and slugging percentage... With the rate that Pods gets on base, that would be huge to have beckham batting second. more walks and more doubles. It would benefit the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted July 28, 2009 Author Share Posted July 28, 2009 QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 03:32 PM) Please. OBP is not needed in the 2-hole. A .330 OBP is way better in front of the heart of your lineup than a .371 OBP. what were you trying to say here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted July 28, 2009 Author Share Posted July 28, 2009 And I actually agree with the article that obp is more crucial to the #2 spot than you think, because typically you are coming up after the 9 hitter or 8 hitter has already made at least one out in the inning and trying to get on for the sluggers to drive you in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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