The Critic Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 QUOTE (CanOfCorn @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 01:27 PM) And somewhere up in Canada...JP Riccardi is fashioning a Mark Shapiro voodoo doll... He should be fashioning a JP Riccardi voodoo doll instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie Ball Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 07:28 PM) Its one thing to trade for a Happ, who has proven he can pitch in the majors, or even Drabek, who is at AAA and so close. Knapp is 18 years old, and I dont care how highly touted he is, he is still a LONG way from the majors, and a lot of weird stuff can happen, like injuries, or it can just turn out he was overrated the whole time. Happ hasn't proven s***, is Kyle Kendrick a proven Major League pitcher? No, but he had one good year (ERA wise). Happ's stuff and peripherals don't match his results, he's due for a BIG decline. I agree on Knapp though, he has some great K rates but his command is bad, as are his mechanics and he's been injury prone, those guys fail, often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderBolt Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 The Phillies got robbed blind on this one. Ultimately, I’d say it adds about to 2-4 wins this year in a division they were almost assured to win without making a move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Cliff Lee is far from proven as he can get back out of sorts in a hurry, but the Phils got a pretty good deal here considering the prospects they gave up werent world beaters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 04:17 PM) The Phillies got robbed blind on this one. Ultimately, I’d say it adds about to 2-4 wins this year in a division they were almost assured to win without making a move. The move was to increase their chances in the post season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 03:17 PM) The Phillies got robbed blind on this one. Ultimately, I’d say it adds about to 2-4 wins this year in a division they were almost assured to win without making a move. I read they are concerned about facing the Giants in the postseason....Lee would help them match-up against a Lincecum/Cain combo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 02:20 PM) The move was to increase their chances in the post season. Leaves them stacked for next year too. Remember, if you're a team like the Phillies...your window is now, when Howard, Utley, Rollins, perhaps Ibanez, perhaps Werth, Victorino, Hamels, Lidge are all right around their prime ages. 2 years from now, guys are getting hurt because they're older, guys are in walk years, guys are more expensive, etc. They've got a shot at the WS for 3 years in a row. You want to face Hamels, Blanton, and Lee 3 times in the same 7 game series? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenksycat Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 04:17 PM) The Phillies got robbed blind on this one. Ultimately, I’d say it adds about to 2-4 wins this year in a division they were almost assured to win without making a move. Probably a good thing then that this move had absolutely nothing to do with winning the division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 QUOTE (Ozzie Ball @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 02:17 PM) Happ hasn't proven s***, is Kyle Kendrick a proven Major League pitcher? No, but he had one good year (ERA wise). Happ's stuff and peripherals don't match his results, he's due for a BIG decline. I agree on Knapp though, he has some great K rates but his command is bad, as are his mechanics and he's been injury prone, those guys fail, often. Any time you do a deal like this for 3 or 4 guys, you're going for numbers. Last year we didn't think Clayton Richard looked like more than a reliever, now he's stepping up big time. Think about how many deals wind up being good deals because 1 or 2 guys develop? Or because a surprise guy develops? The Pierzynski trade...the big piece was Boof Bonser. The prize wound up being that converted guy named Joe Nathan. The original Colon trade was for Brandon Phillips. He was released by the Tribe, but they also got Sizemore and Lee. A couple of these guys are likely to bust. But it is an infusion of talent throughout the system that can either develop, be used for trades, or give you the ability to draft guys at other positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderBolt Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 05:27 PM) Probably a good thing then that this move had absolutely nothing to do with winning the division. I think the playoffs are too big of a crapshoot to just assume that getting a top pitcher is going to clinch you a trip to the World Series. The way I see it is that the Phillies gave up a decent haul for a piece that will help them slightly, but offer no significant upgrade for the rest of the year. On paper the Phillies would look good going into a series against the Giants, however, if paper stood for anything then the Yankees would win it ever year. Looking at this deal In the long-term it does make sense, and stands to benefit both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prochisox Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 What if the Phillies saved those other prospects and use those to trade for Halladay now? They still have enough to make the trade IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 03:31 PM) I think the playoffs are too big of a crapshoot to just assume that getting a top pitcher is going to clinch you a trip to the World Series. The way I see it is that the Phillies gave up a decent haul for a piece that will help them slightly, but offer no significant upgrade for the rest of the year. On paper the Phillies would look good going into a series against the Giants, however, if paper stood for anything then the Yankees would win it ever year. Looking at this deal In the long-term it does make sense, and stands to benefit both sides. It is a crapshoot...but the prevailing theory seems to be that dominant pitching beats dominant hitting, and that is the best way to succeed in such a crapshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 02:26 PM) Leaves them stacked for next year too. Remember, if you're a team like the Phillies...your window is now, when Howard, Utley, Rollins, perhaps Ibanez, perhaps Werth, Victorino, Hamels, Lidge are all right around their prime ages. 2 years from now, guys are getting hurt because they're older, guys are in walk years, guys are more expensive, etc. They've got a shot at the WS for 3 years in a row. You want to face Hamels, Blanton, and Lee 3 times in the same 7 game series? The Phils now have a shot at winning 2 or 3 straight world series. It was a brilliant move, plus while the Tribe got a good package, in no way do I think the Phils over-paid. It was a fair trade, imo. Made sense for both parties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 04:34 PM) It is a crapshoot...but the prevailing theory seems to be that dominant pitching beats dominant hitting, and that is the best way to succeed in such a crapshoot. ^^^^^^^ The 2005 White Sox say hi! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan562004 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 watching MLB Network, they're stressing that this deal likely won't be finalized until tomorrow because Knapp currently has a sore shoulder (as noted in the content of the first post), so the Indians might want a little extra time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Ben Francisco seemed to hurt us a lot as well. Good getting those two out of the division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 The Phillies got a very good pitcher who's signed for another year without giving up their top prospects. That's a hell of a deal for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 04:17 PM) The Phillies got robbed blind on this one. Ultimately, I’d say it adds about to 2-4 wins this year in a division they were almost assured to win without making a move. And you could say the same thing about Halladay. The Phillies aren't shooting for division titles. They're going for championships. And a rotation headed by Lee/Hamels (or Hamels/Lee), Blanton, Moyer and possibly Pedro gives them a much better chance in October. QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 04:31 PM) I think the playoffs are too big of a crapshoot to just assume that getting a top pitcher is going to clinch you a trip to the World Series. The way I see it is that the Phillies gave up a decent haul for a piece that will help them slightly, but offer no significant upgrade for the rest of the year. On paper the Phillies would look good going into a series against the Giants, however, if paper stood for anything then the Yankees would win it ever year. Looking at this deal In the long-term it does make sense, and stands to benefit both sides. Who's assuming anything? They're attempting to give themselves the best chance to win a championship. By your logic no team with a 5+ game lead in their division should attempt to make themselves better because anybody can win in the playoffs. Remember when the Sox had a 15 game lead in 2005? Remember all the Griffey rumors? Remember all the AJ Burnett rumors? That's what a good GM does. Of course anybody can win. That's what's great. You still don't sit on your hands if you have a chance to get better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 05:41 PM) The Phillies got a very good pitcher who's signed for another year without giving up their top prospects. That's a hell of a deal for them. I can't 'fathom' how anybody sees this as a bad move for the Phillies. I'm actually jealous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 And they did it without giving up Drabek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderBolt Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 I don’t want to seem like I’m backtracking, B) but I’ll concede that you all made some very legitimate points. At the end of the day the Phillies put themselves in a position to win RIGHT NOW, and I can’t see a problem with that. Plus, not giving up Drabek is big. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TylerAtIU Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 06:16 PM) And they did it without giving up Drabek. Or those two outfielders Taylor and Brown... those three together could probably net you Halladay if you really wanted him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 QUOTE (ChiSox420* @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 06:21 PM) Or those two outfielders Taylor and Brown... those three together could probably net you Halladay if you really wanted him Taylor and Brown would be the top 2 OF 'spects in probably 75% of the farm systems in baseball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Acquiring Cliff Lee without giving up a top prospect...good day to be a Phils phan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearSox Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 The biggest concern with Lee is how he handles big situations. His success these past 2 years has come when the Indians sucked. I'm interested to see how he handles a lot more pressure now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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