And that's a White Sox season.

[Balance]

I'm not going to say that the season is over; surely anything can happen. If the Sox decide to become sellers by tomorrow evening, I won't fault the decision.

 

The one thing that would be the wrong move, in my opinion, would be to trade away our future core in the hopes of adding a short-term impact player for this season. I don't want the Sox to pay what it would take to get a Halladay, for example. I think the most likely scenario (and the best choice) is to stick with what we have now and let the chips fall where they may. If the Sox can win this weak division, great. But let's not give up the opportunity to control this division (and, hopefully, make deep playoff runs) for the next several years.

[NorthSideSox72]

how many people change their tune in this thread if we beat the yankees this weekend????

IF we take 3 of 4 from NYY, that changes a lot of things for the better.

 

[kwolf68]

IF we take 3 of 4 from NYY, that changes a lot of things for the better.

 

 

Then I would expect us to get swept the next week versus LAA.

 

This team is NOT good enough or consistent enough for the long haul. While it's good enough (at least the starting pitching) to go on small streaks and maybe even win a series against a very good team (such as we did v. Tampa Bay), this team is just so mediocre that success will be fleeting. We followed up a 3 of 4 over Tampa Bay and a perfect game by losing 6 of our next 7 against two teams (Det, Minny) that are nearly as mediocre as we are, but seemingly less so in retrospect.

 

Sox can only win the AL Central if the rest of the division wins no more than 81 games.

Edited July 30, 2009 by kwolf68

[NorthSideSox72]

Then I would expect us to get swept the next week versus LAA.

 

This team is NOT good enough or consistent enough for the long haul. While it's good enough (at least the starting pitching) to go on small streaks and maybe even win a series against a very good team (such as we did v. Tampa Bay), this team is just so mediocre that success will be fleeting. We followed up a 3 of 4 over Tampa Bay and a perfect game by losing 6 of our next 7.

 

Sox can only win the AL Central if the rest of the division wins no more than 81 games.

Our 24-18 record since early June says otherwise, and that INCLUDES the losing 6 of 7. Before that it was 23-12, in a streak that lasted over a month, which is not a "small" streak.

 

[Dick Allen]

I'm not going to say that the season is over; surely anything can happen. If the Sox decide to become sellers by tomorrow evening, I won't fault the decision.

 

The one thing that would be the wrong move, in my opinion, would be to trade away our future core in the hopes of adding a short-term impact player for this season. I don't want the Sox to pay what it would take to get a Halladay, for example. I think the most likely scenario (and the best choice) is to stick with what we have now and let the chips fall where they may. If the Sox can win this weak division, great. But let's not give up the opportunity to control this division (and, hopefully, make deep playoff runs) for the next several years.

If sellers means you get guys like Marquez or Jon Adkins when they decided to "sell" Ray Durham, then being a seller makes zero sense. Its a misconception that any White Sox soon to be free agent can net you a can't miss prospect. If they could, they would have been traded a long time ago.

 

People wanted the Sox to trade Dye for Homer Bailey and his 6.87 ERA.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Dick Allen

[Pumpkin Escobar]

I agree that we probably won't make it and that our roster would be more competitive two years from now if Kenny dealt Dye, Thome, Jenks, and Dotel within the next 24 hours. The problem is that holding another firesale while three games out at the end of July would be the worst business decision that the Sox ever made. It would be White Flag II, and the franchise might never fully recover this time.

 

I agree. It's a catch 22.

 

But it's not the smart business move either to not try and improve your club if you are out of it.

 

I'd hate to be in our shoes as a GM. Well, I wouldn't mind it all actually because I'd flip things a lot but I am sure I'd be fired.

 

Teams like Cleveland - who's players are much younger and in some cases better then our "veterans" are dealing off guys. They're situation sounds worse then ours as they cant afford their contracts so I am sure we can survive ours.

 

The original White Flag also was dealing who Alvarez? He was 27 I think. Much different then dealing a 12 million dollar a year OF or Dh. Same with Fernandez - he was 33 I think. Danny Darwin or someone was part 3.

 

The deal wasnt horrible either in retrospect and if the Sox can acquire a better package for some of the guys theyd be moving. They should do it if things don't start looking up. At least try and put a couple through waivers to make a deal.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Pumpkin Escobar

[southsider2k5]

I agree. It's a catch 22.

 

But it's not the smart business move either to not try and improve your club if you are out of it.

 

I'd hate to be in our shoes as a GM. Well, I wouldn't mind it all actually because I'd flip things a lot but I am sure I'd be fired.

 

Teams like Cleveland - who's players are much younger and in some cases better then our "veterans" are dealing off guys. They're situation sounds worse then ours as they cant afford their contracts so I am sure we can survive ours.

 

The original White Flag also was dealing who Alvarez? He was 27 I think. Much different then dealing a 12 million dollar a year OF or Dh. Same with Fernandez - he was 33 I think. Danny Darwin or someone was part 3.

 

The deal wasnt horrible either in retrospect and if the Sox can acquire a better package for some of the guys theyd be moving. They should do it.

 

The players exchanged might have been a win for the Sox, but the PR damaged lasts still to this day. For that reason alone the trade was a disaster and will not be repeated unless the Sox are a long way out of first place. Sox fans aren't exactly the type of people that will buy tickets today based on the team maybe being good in 2012. People should keep that in mind with the meltdown comments and ideas.

[Pumpkin Escobar]

Our 24-18 record since early June says otherwise, and that INCLUDES the losing 6 of 7. Before that it was 23-12, in a streak that lasted over a month, which is not a "small" streak.

 

The season is made of streaks. Before that - we werent 23-12. We were nearly opposite at some points. You can pick out spots of brilliance with everything or negatives with everything. Eventually you have to look at the whole body of work. That says we are the 3rd best team in the Central because we are in 3rd and cant beat the 2 teams in front of us. Or most the teams remaining on our schedule for that matter.

[Pumpkin Escobar]

The players exchanged might have been a win for the Sox, but the PR damaged lasts still to this day. For that reason alone the trade was a disaster and will not be repeated unless the Sox are a long way out of first place. Sox fans aren't exactly the type of people that will buy tickets today based on the team maybe being good in 2012. People should keep that in mind with the meltdown comments and ideas.

 

The thing with our club though that is different from other teams who firesale is we have a good core of players we arent going to trade.

 

Dealing a Dye or a Jenks and a dotel/thome is only going to improve our club/farm. Because we have the money to spend unlike most teams who have firesales.

 

So losing Dye could potentially net us 2 good guys who can contribute in 1-3 years but that money can improve something else. Or those prospects we get can enable us to deal them/or our other prospects for other talented players.

 

When you firesale - it doesnt have to be for 5 years from now. We can move these guys and be favorites next season by spending their money wisely to fill holes and then have a loaded farm incase we need to add from there.

[NorthSideSox72]

The season is made of streaks. Before that - we werent 23-12. We were nearly opposite at some points. You can pick out spots of brilliance with everything or negatives with everything. Eventually you have to look at the whole body of work. That says we are the 3rd best team in the Central because we are in 3rd and cant beat the 2 teams in front of us. Or most the teams remaining on our schedule for that matter.

You missed the point. The previous poster said the team was only capable of "small streaks", which clearly is not the case.

 

[Pumpkin Escobar]

You missed the point. The previous poster said the team was only capable of "small streaks", which clearly is not the case.

 

You're absolutely right. I missed that.

[southsider2k5]

The thing with our club though that is different from other teams who firesale is we have a good core of players we arent going to trade.

 

Dealing a Dye or a Jenks and a dotel/thome is only going to improve our club/farm. Because we have the money to spend unlike most teams who have firesales.

 

So losing Dye could potentially net us 2 good guys who can contribute in 1-3 years but that money can improve something else. Or those prospects we get can enable us to deal them/or our other prospects for other talented players.

 

When you firesale - it doesnt have to be for 5 years from now. We can move these guys and be favorites next season by spending their money wisely to fill holes and then have a loaded farm incase we need to add from there.

 

But people aren't going to look at it that way. They didn't look at the 98 trades that way either. They are going to look at it as the Sox quitting again on a season where they were right there. It would be a PR disaster and would lead to a fall in attendence, which would lead to a slash in payroll.

[Pumpkin Escobar]

But people aren't going to look at it that way. They didn't look at the 98 trades that way either. They are going to look at it as the Sox quitting again on a season where they were right there. It would be a PR disaster and would lead to a fall in attendence, which would lead to a slash in payroll.

 

Unfortunately - that is something I can't debate.

 

As much as I feel things would be different dealing off veterans and having some great young guys already up to look forward to. I can't argue it wouldnt take some form of a PR hit.

 

Which is a shame because people would rather be stubborn and watch a team semi-playoff caliber coast to a 3rd place finish 8 games back then put together another World Series Caliber team for next season.

 

It's the truth. Unfortunately too many people don't realize how much of a business this is and sometimes should be treated like one.

[Dick Allen]

Unfortunately - that is something I can't debate.

 

As much as I feel things would be different dealing off veterans and having some great young guys already up to look forward to. I can't argue it wouldnt take some form of a PR hit.

 

Which is a shame because people would rather be stubborn and watch a team semi-playoff caliber coast to a 3rd place finish 8 games back then put together another World Series Caliber team for next season.

 

It's the truth. Unfortunately too many people don't realize how much of a business this is and sometimes should be treated like one.

What type of prospects if you were the GM of another team would you be willing to trade for Thome or Dye or Dotel or Contreras or Jenks? Remember it is a business like you mentioned and that you have to honor their contracts and in Jenks case, he's arb eligible?

 

When you answer that, put those types of prospects in the White Sox organization and tell me how those players will help the White Sox win the WS next season?

 

Also keep in mind when you are mentioning money savings, the White Sox have not given another teams' free agent more than $20 million since December of 1996. Chances are they aren't signing one.

 

Then look at next year's free agent list. Its pretty ugly. Figgins may have some interest, but he's getting older, has had injury problems in the past and has come up big during his contract year. It seems like a disaster waiting to happen.

[Pumpkin Escobar]

What type of prospects if you were the GM of another team would you be willing to trade for Thome or Dye or Dotel or Contreras or Jenks? Remember it is a business like you mentioned and that you have to honor their contracts and in Jenks case, he's arb eligible?

 

When you answer that, put those types of prospects in the White Sox organization and tell me how those players will help the White Sox win the WS next season?

 

Also keep in mind when you are mentioning money savings, the White Sox have not given another teams' free agent more than $20 million since December of 1996. Chances are they aren't signing one.

 

Then look at next year's free agent list. Its pretty ugly. Figgins may have some interest, but he's getting older, has had injury problems in the past and has come up big during his contract year. It seems like a disaster waiting to happen.

 

Hate to break it to you. I wouldnt have seen many teams giving up an Alderson for Sanchez.

 

The only thing I could possibly see as a reason why it isn't worht it for those teams to make a deal for a Dye, Jenks, or Dotel is they don't want to offer arb to get the draft pick compensation.

 

That is the only thing I can see holding these deals up. As much as you like to think certain guys arent worth certain players - having expiring contracts or compensation - especially type-A means a lot to clubs.

 

If they deal 1 good looking player for a Vet who can carry them into the playoffs then have a chance 2 draft 2 more young studs? Please. It's worth it.

[WCSox]

But people aren't going to look at it that way. They didn't look at the 98 trades that way either. They are going to look at it as the Sox quitting again on a season where they were right there. It would be a PR disaster and would lead to a fall in attendence, which would lead to a slash in payroll.

 

And that's the point. I was angry, but not furious at the White Flag deal because I understood that the Sox didn't have the pitching to compete in the post-season. (Nor did the Sox have the offense to compete with the juggernaut that Cleveland had at the time.) Heck, the Sox didn't even come close to the division title when Sirotka out-pitched Alvarez down the stretch. The media tore Reinsdorf to pieces 12 years ago, and they'll do it again. And all of the uninformed casual fans will ditch the Sox because of it.

 

And as Dick pointed out, the Sox aren't going to get anything close to what they got from the Giants in '97.

Edited July 30, 2009 by WCSox

[Dick Allen]

Hate to break it to you. I wouldnt have seen many teams giving up an Alderson for Sanchez.

 

The only thing I could possibly see as a reason why it isn't worht it for those teams to make a deal for a Dye, Jenks, or Dotel is they don't want to offer arb to get the draft pick compensation.

 

That is the only thing I can see holding these deals up. As much as you like to think certain guys arent worth certain players - having expiring contracts or compensation - especially type-A means a lot to clubs.

 

If they deal 1 good looking player for a Vet who can carry them into the playoffs then have a chance 2 draft 2 more young studs? Please. It's worth it.

According to Keith Law, Alderson's stuff has deteriorated to the point where he thought it was a fair deal.

 

So you are saying if you were a GM of another team, you would have no problem giving up your top prospects for Thome, Dye, Dotel, Contreras or Jenks?

 

Do you understand how draft pick compensation works? The team would have to offer the players arbitration to be eligible for the draft picks. If you were the GM that means Thome would be offered at least $11 million, and he would have to turn it down. The White Sox free agents to be are looking at sharp reductions in salary except for maybe Dye, but I don't know if I would want to pay Dye $12 million next year. So the draft pick compensation thing isn't going to work.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Dick Allen

[jenksycat]

If they deal 1 good looking player for a Vet who can carry them into the playoffs then have a chance 2 draft 2 more young studs? Please. It's worth it.

 

Hate to break it to you...but NOBODY will be offering arbitration to Dye/Thome/PK, which means no draft picks

Edited July 30, 2009 by Jenksy Cat

[Pumpkin Escobar]

According to Keith Law, Alderson's stuff has deteriorated to the point where he thought it was a fair deal.

 

So you are saying if you were a GM of another team, you would have no problem giving up your top prospects for Thome, Dye, Dotel, Contreras or Jenks?

 

Do you understand how draft pick compensation works? The team would have to offer the players arbitration to be eligible for the draft picks. If you were the GM that means Thome would be offered at least $11 million, and he would have to turn it down. The White Sox free agents to be are looking at sharp reductions in salary except for maybe Dye, but I don't know if I would want to pay Dye $12 million next year. So the draft pick compensation thing isn't going to work.

 

 

No Thome doesn't qualify. Nor does Contreras.

 

The other 3. If I felt that adding one of those 3 put me into the World Series, and I had intentions of offering Arb then Yes I do it.

 

If I don't have intentions of it - then I don't.

 

Which is why I said the economy is one of the problems with this occuring this year.

[Pumpkin Escobar]

Hate to break it to you...but NOBODY will be offering arbitration to Dye/Thome/PK, which means no draft picks

 

Impressive.

 

I said the economy will be a reason why they won't offer it or that scares me during this process. If someone is willing to do pay arbitration, then they'll do it. If not - then obviously they won't make the deal.

 

Any other set of years - these trades happen. Even now they happen. I don't care if Aldersons stuff is down a little - he still was a big name guy

 

And for the 100th time - only Dye and Dotel are Type-A this season who are FA. Konerko is under contract and Thome isn't Type-A last I saw.

[jenksycat]

Impressive.

 

I said the economy will be a reason why they won't offer it or that scares me during this process. If someone is willing to do pay arbitration, then they'll do it. If not - then obviously they won't make the deal.

 

Any other set of years - these trades happen. Even now they happen. I don't care if Aldersons stuff is down a little - he still was a big name guy

 

And for the 100th time - only Dye and Dotel are Type-A this season who are FA. Konerko is under contract and Thome isn't Type-A last I saw.

 

You didn't say anything about the economy. And who cares if these trades happened in the past? We are not in the past, they will not happen now. Nobody will give up a top-flight prospect for 2 months of Dye or Dotel when they can't offer him arbitration.

[lostfan]

The 2006 83-79 St. Louis Cardinals say hi.

You know, I'm not jumping off the ledge, but I really hate the 2006 Cardinals for this exact reason. That was very clearly an anomaly, yet still, fans everywhere get deluded into thinking their .500 team could be a World Series contender in disguise and conveniently ignore all the stars that would have to align for this to happen.

[elrockinMT]

You didn't say anything about the economy. And who cares if these trades happened in the past? We are not in the past, they will not happen now. Nobody will give up a top-flight prospect for 2 months of Dye or Dotel when they can't offer him arbitration.

 

 

What's with this trade Dye stuff all the time? For cryng out loud we lose a few games and all of sudden we White Flag our best players for a "prospect?"

Edited July 30, 2009 by elrockinMT

[Pumpkin Escobar]

Hate to break it to you. I wouldnt have seen many teams giving up an Alderson for Sanchez.

 

The only thing I could possibly see as a reason why it isn't worht it for those teams to make a deal for a Dye, Jenks, or Dotel is they don't want to offer arb to get the draft pick compensation.

 

That is the only thing I can see holding these deals up. As much as you like to think certain guys arent worth certain players - having expiring contracts or compensation - especially type-A means a lot to clubs.

 

If they deal 1 good looking player for a Vet who can carry them into the playoffs then have a chance 2 draft 2 more young studs? Please. It's worth it.

 

 

You didn't say anything about the economy. And who cares if these trades happened in the past? We are not in the past, they will not happen now. Nobody will give up a top-flight prospect for 2 months of Dye or Dotel when they can't offer him arbitration.

 

You're right...I didn't say economy. I should've specified more. I sometimes comment on so many threads I lose my train of thought or just assume it's already been voiced where i don't need to repeat myself for those like yourself.

 

But you're right. i thought I said economy and I must not have. That is the only thing hindering these kind of deals.

 

 

Edited July 31, 2009 by Chisoxfn

[Wise Master Buehrle]

We were due for a pretty horrible road trip. We must really focus at home and win games at home just as badly as Detroit in Detroit and Minnesota in Minnesota. We have to become better then a .500 home team, which is about where we're at right now. We were about a .500 road team until this latest trip. You can't go 1-6 on every road trip so let's hope that was just a tough swing and get ready for a different team. Embody the "different location, different team" mindset just as some hitters do when a dominant starting pitcher is removed from the game. We can beat the Yankees, we just have to play very hard. They are playing very well and personally I think they should be due for a bad series at a time like this.

 

One last thing -- we have to kick the asses of Detroit and Minnesota in OUR house. Toss them around like used dolls as they did us. Use this 1-6 road trip as a 'chip on your shoulder' to propel you forward.

Edited July 30, 2009 by DanksFan