Cash for Clunkers already messed up????

[southsider2k5]

So, basically, we front-loaded the sales we would have expected over the next 5 years into a month or two?

 

Yeah, that's how I see it. There was about a years worth of pent up sales because of the recession, but there are a lot of people who seemingly jumped at the chance if they ran through all of the cash that fast. Plus cars aren't exactly an impulse item, so if you already have a car that fits into clunker status, you probably aren't the type of person who trades in every year. Once they buy something, it is going to be made to last. I think we ate into a lot of near future and mid term future demand with this program.

[jasonxctf]

So? Where do the PROFITS go?

 

In the US case, except Ford now, they go to the US government. How nice!

 

To the shareholders since I think all of these are publicly traded companies. Honda and Toyota are traded on the NYSE. So the profits go to you and I through our Stocks, Mutual Funds, etc. (incl International Funds)

[kapkomet]

To the shareholders since I think all of these are publicly traded companies. Honda and Toyota are traded on the NYSE. So the profits go to you and I through our Stocks, Mutual Funds, etc. (incl International Funds)

Yes, that's true. Majority of shareholders are where, regardless of listing?

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

People here seem to be forgetting as well, on average, people got into cars with much better gas mileage. That decrease in demand will help keep oil and gas prices lower, keep pollution lower, get people to travel (tourism $) more, and keep them at lower levels of consumer debt. The front-load issue will indeed cause lower demand later, but you ALSO get a bunch of longer term benefits. Let's not look at just one side of this.

 

[Rex Kickass]

So? Where do the PROFITS go?

 

In the US case, except Ford now, they go to the US government. How nice!

 

Wouldn't that just be a way to reduce the deficit you're so concerned about?

 

If bailing out the industry was a waste of taxpayer money, how is the government seeing some payback a bad thing too?

[jasonxctf]

Yes, that's true. Majority of shareholders are where, regardless of listing?

 

For Honda its...

 

TOP INSTITUTIONAL HOLDERS

 

Holder Shares % Out Value* Reported

DODGE & COX INC 13,271,884 .73 $314,543,650 31-Mar-09

FISHER INVESTMENTS, INC. 10,523,303 .58 $288,022,803 30-Jun-09

WELLINGTON MANAGEMENT COMPANY, LLP 5,569,600 .31 $131,999,520 31-Mar-09

FMR LLC 2,043,150 .11 $48,422,655 31-Mar-09

CAPITAL GUARDIAN TRUST COMPANY 2,032,500 .11 $48,170,250 31-Mar-09

LORD ABBETT & CO 1,975,986 .11 $46,830,868 31-Mar-09

AXA 1,169,962 .06 $27,728,099 31-Mar-09

BRANDES INVESTMENT PARTNERS L.P. 1,154,168 .06 $27,353,781 31-Mar-09

MORGAN STANLEY 1,037,355 .06 $24,585,313 31-Mar-09

JP MORGAN CHASE & COMPANY 896,997 .05 $21,258,828 31-Mar-09

 

 

TOP MUTUAL FUND HOLDERS

 

Holder Shares % Out Value* Reported

DODGE & COX INTERNATIONAL STOCK FUND 10,428,400 .57 $285,425,308 30-Jun-09

VANGUARD/WELLINGTON FUND INC. 6,769,300 .37 $159,958,559 28-Feb-09

LORD ABBETT ALL VALUE FUND 1,349,100 .07 $39,204,846 30-Apr-09

FIDELITY CONTRAFUND INC 1,298,700 .07 $37,701,261 31-May-09

FIDELITY ADVISOR DIVERSIFIED INTERNATIONAL FUND 1,000,000 .06 $29,030,000 31-May-09

HARTFORD DIVIDEND AND GROWTH HLS FUND, INC. 644,000 .04 $15,262,800 31-Mar-09

HARTFORD DIVIDEND & GROWTH FUND 451,900 .02 $13,118,657 31-May-09

DFA International Core Equity Portfolio 409,732 .02 $9,284,527 31-Jan-09

AMERICAN MUTUAL FUND INC 300,000 .02 $7,110,000 31-Mar-09

FIDELITY ADVISOR NEW INSIGHTS FUND 277,300 .02 $8,050,019 31-May-09

 

 

[southsider2k5]

For Honda its...

 

TOP INSTITUTIONAL HOLDERS

 

Holder Shares % Out Value* Reported

DODGE & COX INC 13,271,884 .73 $314,543,650 31-Mar-09

FISHER INVESTMENTS, INC. 10,523,303 .58 $288,022,803 30-Jun-09

WELLINGTON MANAGEMENT COMPANY, LLP 5,569,600 .31 $131,999,520 31-Mar-09

FMR LLC 2,043,150 .11 $48,422,655 31-Mar-09

CAPITAL GUARDIAN TRUST COMPANY 2,032,500 .11 $48,170,250 31-Mar-09

LORD ABBETT & CO 1,975,986 .11 $46,830,868 31-Mar-09

AXA 1,169,962 .06 $27,728,099 31-Mar-09

BRANDES INVESTMENT PARTNERS L.P. 1,154,168 .06 $27,353,781 31-Mar-09

MORGAN STANLEY 1,037,355 .06 $24,585,313 31-Mar-09

JP MORGAN CHASE & COMPANY 896,997 .05 $21,258,828 31-Mar-09

 

 

TOP MUTUAL FUND HOLDERS

 

Holder Shares % Out Value* Reported

DODGE & COX INTERNATIONAL STOCK FUND 10,428,400 .57 $285,425,308 30-Jun-09

VANGUARD/WELLINGTON FUND INC. 6,769,300 .37 $159,958,559 28-Feb-09

LORD ABBETT ALL VALUE FUND 1,349,100 .07 $39,204,846 30-Apr-09

FIDELITY CONTRAFUND INC 1,298,700 .07 $37,701,261 31-May-09

FIDELITY ADVISOR DIVERSIFIED INTERNATIONAL FUND 1,000,000 .06 $29,030,000 31-May-09

HARTFORD DIVIDEND AND GROWTH HLS FUND, INC. 644,000 .04 $15,262,800 31-Mar-09

HARTFORD DIVIDEND & GROWTH FUND 451,900 .02 $13,118,657 31-May-09

DFA International Core Equity Portfolio 409,732 .02 $9,284,527 31-Jan-09

AMERICAN MUTUAL FUND INC 300,000 .02 $7,110,000 31-Mar-09

FIDELITY ADVISOR NEW INSIGHTS FUND 277,300 .02 $8,050,019 31-May-09

 

I am guessing that those are shares from the NYSE, not Nikkei where the lions share of business is done. Especially because of how few shares are listed there. Most companies have floats in the billions of shares. But there is no source in your post, so its hard to say for sure.

[jasonxctf]

sorry.. yes NYSE thru Yahoo lsiting.

[mr_genius]

My only bone with this program (well besides the obvious miscalculations) was that they allowed this to be applied to any car company. This program should have been kept to the big 2 US automakers. I can't believe if we are going to giveaway money, that we wouldn't make sure it saved jobs that actually can support people.

 

yea, but Japan produces a lot of cars in the US. Reagan basically told em in the 80's they make cars here or they don't sell them here. which caused an uproar with the free trader crew. it worked out though.

[mr_genius]

People here seem to be forgetting as well, on average, people got into cars with much better gas mileage. That decrease in demand will help keep oil and gas prices lower, keep pollution lower, get people to travel (tourism $) more, and keep them at lower levels of consumer debt. The front-load issue will indeed cause lower demand later, but you ALSO get a bunch of longer term benefits. Let's not look at just one side of this.

 

should have been a 'order a hybrid get 4500 dollars off' program. all cars getting 22 or less mpg qualify. just my 2 cents

 

imagine how much less oil we would use

Edited August 22, 2009 by mr_genius

[southsider2k5]

sorry.. yes NYSE thru Yahoo lsiting.

 

Yeah, so in reality, the top share holders listed there, probably hold 1% or so of the company.

[kapkomet]

Yeah, so in reality, the top share holders listed there, probably hold 1% or so of the company.

Which was my point.

[jasonxctf]

so who owns the rest?

[kapkomet]

so who owns the rest?

Um, the Japanese and Toyoda family? (yes, ToyoDa).

 

[NorthSideSox72]

should have been a 'order a hybrid get 4500 dollars off' program. all cars getting 22 or less mpg qualify. just my 2 cents

 

imagine how much less oil we would use

I would have been good with that, but it would never have passed. It would also not help Chrysler whatsoever, and barely help GM or Ford.

 

[Rex Kickass]

I would have been good with that, but it would never have passed. It would also not help Chrysler whatsoever, and barely help GM or Ford.

 

Actually, Ford's hybrid program is growing to be pretty robust - withe Escape doing pretty well in sales.

[NorthSideSox72]

Actually, Ford's hybrid program is growing to be pretty robust - withe Escape doing pretty well in sales.

Why I said marginally. I believe they have 2 or 3 hybrid models now - but production levels are still a small % of their total production. GM has a couple, but same thing, only a small %. Chrysler, I thought, has none.

 

Given the success Ford has had with the Escape Hybrid and other hybrid models, I'd guess they will continue to ramp that program up, but today, its not huge, and they aren't capable of doing a huge short run ramp-up for a program like this.

 

[mr_genius]

I would have been good with that, but it would never have passed. It would also not help Chrysler whatsoever, and barely help GM or Ford.

 

the Fusion and Escape hybrids are really nice cars. The fusion can drive at a speed up to 47 mph on battery alone. I've been reading that drivers are averaging 55 mpg on it. The Escape gets great mileage for a reasonably sized SUV.

 

Both good options for consumers whom want a hybrid that is like a normal car.

[mr_genius]

they aren't capable of doing a huge short run ramp-up for a program like this.

 

yea, that is true.

[NorthSideSox72]

the Fusion and Escape hybrids are really nice cars. The fusion can drive at a speed up to 47 mph on battery alone. I've been reading that drivers are averaging 55 mpg on it. The Escape gets great mileage for a reasonably sized SUV.

 

Both good options for consumers whom want a hybrid that is like a normal car.

I agree with that fully. I was just saying that if you targeted the program to only hybrids, the net positive effect for the Big 3 would be very small. They already produce as many as they can, and pretty much sell them all, even now.

 

You guys have seen me post enough to know I want to see supports in place for getting us into alternative stuff like this faster. But a short run program like this won't do much to achieve that - its main purpose is to prop up the industry temporarily (akin to if they had put temporary price supports on plane tickets after 9/11), and secondarily, to improve the overall efficiency of the national fleet of autos. The fact that hybrids may also uptick a little bit (which is all the ceiling room they have in the short run) is only a nice side effect. Anything meant to go more to these technologies long term, needs to be R&D money and ongoing tax incentives to both manufacturers and consumers.