Rick Hahn on the Score

[kev211]

this a fantasy baseball type response. if the phillies moved utley to the OF does he become less productive?

No, but he immediately becomes a lot less valuable. Stress a lot there too. Utley is one of it not the best 2B in the league. In the OF he's just another guy who is going to hit you 30-35 homers with 110-120 RBI.

 

Basically Beckham's bat going to do the same thing at SS/2B then it's going to do at 3B. It's just a lot more valuable at 2B/SS because the Sox will have an easier time finding a 3B who can produce good offensive numbers, then a middle infielder.

Edited August 3, 2009 by kev211

[iamshack]

this a fantasy baseball type response. if the phillies moved utley to the OF does he become less productive?

No, but be becomes less valuable.

 

Because the league-average offensive output for outfielders is higher than that of second basemen. So they could pay someone less to produce in the OF, and leave Utley at 2b.

[kev211]

No, but be becomes less valuable.

 

Because the league-average offensive output for outfielders is higher than that of second basemen. So they could pay someone less to produce in the OF, and leave Utley at 2b.

I win

[beautox]

With the way the roster is set up this year beckham at 3B is fine.

 

Going forward in the future there will be alot of "what ifs". If getz can keep up the level of production around 750ish or even 800 then hes a very valuable asset its like having denard span in the infield. I think the sox let PK ride out next year and give dayan more time to establish himself, with Dayan eventually taking over 1B or maybe KW will get creative after the AFL and move getz aj and jenks and really set us up with a farm system.

 

It blows my thinking that we could be looking at a roster like this in the near future.

 

DH - Thome/Dye

C - Flowers

1B - Viciedo

2B - Getz

SS - Ramirez

3B - Beckham

LF - Quentin

CF - Danks

RF - Mitchel

 

SP - Buehrle

SP - Peavy

SP - Danks

SP - Floyd

SP - Hudson

[Voros]

If they can change ARod around, anyone can be changed at any time for the betterment of the team

If that were really true, ARod wouldn't have been the one who mas moved.

 

The idea behind Beckham playing a more important defensive position like SS or 2B is that theoretically if Beckham is as good a defender at those positions as he is at 3B, average fielding third basemen tend to be better hitters than average fielding second baseman. In the case specifically of the White Sox, the presence of Viciedo only enhances that point.

 

Getz is a nifty little player, but he's not real young and his upside with the stick looks like maybe .280/.350/.400. If it's that or Josh Fields, Getz looks not too bad. But otherwise you might want to consider trying to upgrade the offense there.

 

The big problem I see is one of timing. Skills not used tend to disintegrate. If Beckham is ultimately not going to play third, it would be a mistake to leave him there much longer past this season. There was a time when Chipper Jones was probably a better defensive shortstop than a defensive third baseman. Obviously that's likely not the case anymore.

[beautox]

Getz is a nifty little player, but he's not real young and his upside with the stick looks like maybe .280/.350/.400. If it's that or Josh Fields, Getz looks not too bad. But otherwise you might want to consider trying to upgrade the offense there.

 

The big problem I see is one of timing. Skills not used tend to disintegrate. If Beckham is ultimately not going to play third, it would be a mistake to leave him there much longer past this season. There was a time when Chipper Jones was probably a better defensive shortstop than a defensive third baseman. Obviously that's likely not the case anymore.

 

this should be fun

 

Both are 25 year old 2B anyone want to take a stab at who player one is and who player two is?

 

Player one is

Brain Roberts

 

Player two is

Chris Getz

 

Honestly looking at what Chris has done in April, July and what he is doing to start august, i think he could easily put up career numbers like this

.284/.354/.417 .772 Brian Roberts

. I have a hard time believing he would be capable of putting up a 900OPS season with out being on HGH or PEDs but you never know. Power is always the last tool to develop especially in left handed hitters and just a year ago chris hit 11HR in Charlotte. To me chris outside of his rookie adjustment period doesn't stirke me as the type of hitter that is going to go into prologned slumps. He is a welcome addition to our line up and the station to station baseball that has plagued us for so long, personally in the near future i would have him hitting second with Gordon hitting third with Figgins hitting leadoff and playing CF capping it off.

[iamshack]

Nice post, Beautox.

 

The problem I have with Chris is that he tries to swing at pitches that almost hit him. Now I realize he has pulled a few balls out down the right field line, but it seems the vast majority of times he just fouls those pitches off instead of taking them for balls. I would like to see him go the opposite way with pitches out over the plate like Gordon does. The pitch he was aced on by Mariano Rivera today was a prime example of a pitch he could have taken the other way.

 

If he can make a few adjustments, I think he would really be a valuable player.

[SoxFan1]

this should be fun

 

Both are 25 year old 2B anyone want to take a stab at who player one is and who player two is?

 

Player one is

Brain Roberts

 

Player two is

Chris Getz

 

Honestly looking at what Chris has done in April, July and what he is doing to start august, i think he could easily put up career numbers like this

.284/.354/.417 .772 Brian Roberts

. I have a hard time believing he would be capable of putting up a 900OPS season with out being on HGH or PEDs but you never know. Power is always the last tool to develop especially in left handed hitters and just a year ago chris hit 11HR in Charlotte. To me chris outside of his rookie adjustment period doesn't stirke me as the type of hitter that is going to go into prologned slumps. He is a welcome addition to our line up and the station to station baseball that has plagued us for so long, personally in the near future i would have him hitting second with Gordon hitting third with Figgins hitting leadoff and playing CF capping it off.

Getz, to me, is ultimately going to be most effective as a 9 hitter who gets on base and makes things happen with his speed. If he does turn out to reach his ceiling, than he could be a damn good #2 hitter in front of Beckham at #3 or possibly even a lead-off hitter.

[Voros]

Roberts is a career .284/.354/.417 hitter, just a little bit better than the .280/.350/.400 I listed as Getz's upside.

 

And that's _upside_, not necessarily the most likely outcome.

 

Adam Kennedy also hit .270/.318/.372 at 25 (with the exact same OPS+ as Getz) and that's more or less the player he's been since. Mike Lansing, Mark Grudzielanek, Tommie Herr, Harold Reynolds. All useful players, but nobody you wouldn't shove out of the way if Jeff Kent was waiting in the wings.

[iamshack]

If that were really true, ARod wouldn't have been the one who mas moved.

 

The idea behind Beckham playing a more important defensive position like SS or 2B is that theoretically if Beckham is as good a defender at those positions as he is at 3B, average fielding third basemen tend to be better hitters than average fielding second baseman. In the case specifically of the White Sox, the presence of Viciedo only enhances that point.

 

Getz is a nifty little player, but he's not real young and his upside with the stick looks like maybe .280/.350/.400. If it's that or Josh Fields, Getz looks not too bad. But otherwise you might want to consider trying to upgrade the offense there.

 

The big problem I see is one of timing. Skills not used tend to disintegrate. If Beckham is ultimately not going to play third, it would be a mistake to leave him there much longer past this season. There was a time when Chipper Jones was probably a better defensive shortstop than a defensive third baseman. Obviously that's likely not the case anymore.

 

Welcome to Soxtalk, by the way!

[Voros]

Welcome to Soxtalk, by the way!

Thanks.

[beautox]

Roberts is a career .284/.354/.417 hitter, just a little bit better than the .280/.350/.400 I listed as Getz's upside.

 

And that's _upside_, not necessarily the most likely outcome.

 

Adam Kennedy also hit .270/.318/.372 at 25 (with the exact same OPS+ as Getz) and that's more or less the player he's been since. Mike Lansing, Mark Grudzielanek, Tommie Herr, Harold Reynolds. All useful players, but nobody you wouldn't shove out of the way if Jeff Kent was waiting in the wings.

 

This is a very good conversation were having.

 

I agree chris very well could become any of those players you mentioned but the promise of that upside a 770ops 10HR 30SB contact hitter with excellent base stealing technique is quite an asset to have. If you have beckham producing at a 900OPS level at 3B, i think its perfectly acceptable to leave Getz at second for a season or two to see if he can deliver on that upside. In fielding a team of homegrown(cheap) players from our own ranks, it allows us to have a deep bullpen and rotation for the next 4-6 years. Think of all the money we are going to have to spend to spend on top flight international talent and FAs.

 

[iamshack]

This is a very good conversation were having.

 

I agree chris very well could become any of those players you mentioned but the promise of that upside a 770ops 10HR 30SB contact hitter with excellent base stealing technique is quite an asset to have. If you have beckham producing at a 900OPS level at 3B, i think its perfectly acceptable to leave Getz at second for a season or two to see if he can deliver on that upside. In fielding a team of homegrown(cheap) players from our own ranks, it allows us to have a deep bullpen and rotation for the next 4-6 years. Think of all the money we are going to have to spend to spend on top flight international talent and FAs.

 

Good points by everyone.

 

I wouldn't mind keeping Chris at 2nd by any means, especially considering there do not seem to be any options available that are better than Gordon at 3rd.

 

However, if somehow someone solid became available at 3rd at a reasonable price, I just think it's foolish not to move Gordon to the middle infield. However, to me, it makes very little sense to put a guy like Chone Figgins at 3rd just to move Gordon to 2nd.

[Voros]

I agree chris very well could become any of those players you mentioned but the promise of that upside a 770ops 10HR 30SB contact hitter with excellent base stealing technique is quite an asset to have.

Then of course there's the Mike Caruso possibility which is sort of the flipside of Brian Roberts/Bill Doran comparisons.

 

My concern is that I think the sox might have a limited window on moving Beckham back to the middle infield before he loses the ability to play it well. Maybe the safest route is just to leave him at third, but if he actually can play a good shortstop in the Majors, it seems awfully tempting to just have him do that and have everybody else adjust around him. Whether he can or not is info I don't have.

[beautox]

I agree with all of you, but when you have Beckham producing like ryan zimmerman/evan longoria at the plate and a solid cheap option at 2B, i would say keep it the way it is especially if Getz can make the adjustments you spoke of letting the inside pitch go by for a ball or turning on it or taking a very balanced approach at the plate and going with what they give you and develop into that 750-770Ops player. Chris could soldify 2B and hit #1-2 in the line up for a long time coming. I think the way things are right now with Viciedo looking to be the heir apparent to konerko there is no reason to move beckham outside of his bat being elite in the MI(which would be awesome) but then you've got to worry about the CI, we've got Morel and Viciedo.

 

If anything one more year at 3B to truly see what we have in Getz, Viciedo and Morel will not hurt his ability to convert back to 2B/SS.

 

I'm not against moving getz it just seems he fits the mold of player this organization has for so long tried to develop and have at the major league level.

[caulfield12]

Why waste Viciedo's arm at 1B?

 

He's capable of playing LF or RF possibly...as well as 3B.

[beck72]

If that were really true, ARod wouldn't have been the one who mas moved.

 

The idea behind Beckham playing a more important defensive position like SS or 2B is that theoretically if Beckham is as good a defender at those positions as he is at 3B, average fielding third basemen tend to be better hitters than average fielding second baseman. In the case specifically of the White Sox, the presence of Viciedo only enhances that point.

 

Getz is a nifty little player, but he's not real young and his upside with the stick looks like maybe .280/.350/.400. If it's that or Josh Fields, Getz looks not too bad. But otherwise you might want to consider trying to upgrade the offense there.

 

The big problem I see is one of timing. Skills not used tend to disintegrate. If Beckham is ultimately not going to play third, it would be a mistake to leave him there much longer past this season. There was a time when Chipper Jones was probably a better defensive shortstop than a defensive third baseman. Obviously that's likely not the case anymore.

Welcome aboard

 

Before the sox traded for Peavy, I was on board the sox trading Alexei in the offseason to acquire a top young starter [say like Clay Bucholz sp?] from the Red Sox. That was dependent on the sox signing Chone for Figgins for 3b, and would allow Gordon to play SS. Now, I don't see any reason to move Alexei. And seeing that Alexei is a better SS than Beckham, the next 2 years at least are covered at SS.

 

Yet with the SP locked in, SS covered, and no heir apparent for 3b [Viciedo isn't ready, and may not be at 3b in the bigs] it makes a ton of sense to keep Gordon at 3b. I don't buy the argument that his bat would be better at SS or 2b. If the sox get more power production out of SS than is typical, which they do, keeping the same infield is fine going forward.

 

 

[beck72]

I agree with all of you, but when you have Beckham producing like ryan zimmerman/evan longoria at the plate and a solid cheap option at 2B, i would say keep it the way it is especially if Getz can make the adjustments you spoke of letting the inside pitch go by for a ball or turning on it or taking a very balanced approach at the plate and going with what they give you and develop into that 750-770Ops player. Chris could soldify 2B and hit #1-2 in the line up for a long time coming. I think the way things are right now with Viciedo looking to be the heir apparent to konerko there is no reason to move beckham outside of his bat being elite in the MI(which would be awesome) but then you've got to worry about the CI, we've got Morel and Viciedo.

 

If anything one more year at 3B to truly see what we have in Getz, Viciedo and Morel will not hurt his ability to convert back to 2B/SS.

 

I'm not against moving getz it just seems he fits the mold of player this organization has for so long tried to develop and have at the major league level.

 

Exactly. Why move Beckham when he's improving in the field. It's not like he's pulling a Ryan Braun, and being a butcher in the field. And if the sox keep Alexei at SS, they wouldn't have Gordon learn another new position at 2b.

 

Getz is doing things exactly the way the sox want [except for bunting and making rookie fielding mistakes]--stealing bases, hitting good pitchers' pitches, making contact, hitting for avg. He'll be fine going forward at 2b, which would allow the sox to keep the IF set the way it is.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

I find it funny that you're supposed to put guys in certain positions so they have more "value" in people's minds. Who cares what position Beckham plays as long as he's in the line-up. I saw one post where if you put Chase Utley in the OF he just becomes your regular 30-35 homer guy with 110-120 rbi, like there are hundreds of those around. If Beckham gets even better than he is now and stays at 3rd, he'll probably be the best 3rd baseman the White Sox ever had. I don't see the downside.

 

I really don't understand the disdain a lot here have for Getz. In March, the consensus was he should lead off, now after performing about as well as expected, he needs to be replaced. I guess fans are conditioned to scoring via the longball. They complain when thats the only way to score, but when a guy like this comes along, since he doesn't hit a lot of homers, he's garbage, and needs to be replaced by someone who can play 3rd and hit homers.

 

Beckham's "value" is his value to the White Sox, not his "value" vs. others at certain positions. If the White Sox are better off with Beckham at 3rd, that's where he's most valuable. If its second, the same. As long as he's in the line-up, I'm happy.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Dick Allen

[iamshack]

Beckham's "value" is his value to the White Sox, not his "value" vs. others at certain positions. If the White Sox are better off with Beckham at 3rd, that's where he's most valuable. If its second, the same. As long as he's in the line-up, I'm happy.

 

Again, no one is pining for Getz to be replaced. However, if a player can be acquired which makes this team better, then he should be replaced. Just as any other player on the team. What we are merely pointing out is that Beckham's bat can be huge at 2b due to the mere fact that he can play the position soundly (at least we think). And if that is the case, then it could be possible to acquire a 3b who's production comes at a cheaper rate due to the fact that the league average corner infielder produces more than a middle infielder. Thus, the market generally reflects that.

 

However, if this is not feasible, then by all means, keep Getz where he is.

[Voros]

The clearest way to see the distinction is Tyler Flowers as a catcher versus Tyler Flowers as a first basemen. The Beckham situation is much less severe than that, but it's still a consideration I think. The idea is that the likely amount of offense you get from other positions changes pretty severely depending on where Flowers plays.

[Dick Allen]

Again, no one is pining for Getz to be replaced. However, if a player can be acquired which makes this team better, then he should be replaced. Just as any other player on the team. What we are merely pointing out is that Beckham's bat can be huge at 2b due to the mere fact that he can play the position soundly (at least we think). And if that is the case, then it could be possible to acquire a 3b who's production comes at a cheaper rate due to the fact that the league average corner infielder produces more than a middle infielder. Thus, the market generally reflects that.

 

However, if this is not feasible, then by all means, keep Getz where he is.

My point was people shouldn't be hellbent on moving Beckham, just because fantasy baseball rules make him more valuable as a 2B. He's more valuable to the White Sox as a 3B right now, and may be for quite a long time.

[lostfan]

I find it funny that you're supposed to put guys in certain positions so they have more "value" in people's minds. Who cares what position Beckham plays as long as he's in the line-up. I saw one post where if you put Chase Utley in the OF he just becomes your regular 30-35 homer guy with 110-120 rbi, like there are hundreds of those around. If Beckham gets even better than he is now and stays at 3rd, he'll probably be the best 3rd baseman the White Sox ever had. I don't see the downside.

 

I really don't understand the disdain a lot here have for Getz. In March, the consensus was he should lead off, now after performing about as well as expected, he needs to be replaced. I guess fans are conditioned to scoring via the longball. They complain when thats the only way to score, but when a guy like this comes along, since he doesn't hit a lot of homers, he's garbage, and needs to be replaced by someone who can play 3rd and hit homers.

 

Beckham's "value" is his value to the White Sox, not his "value" vs. others at certain positions. If the White Sox are better off with Beckham at 3rd, that's where he's most valuable. If its second, the same. As long as he's in the line-up, I'm happy.

I kind of went out of my way to clarify all this.

[iamshack]

My point was people shouldn't be hellbent on moving Beckham, just because fantasy baseball rules make him more valuable as a 2B. He's more valuable to the White Sox as a 3B right now, and may be for quite a long time.

 

They are not fantasy baseball rules.

 

It is market-value. And since the White Sox operate under a finite budget, that absolutely applies to us.

 

Is the goal not to try and optimize our resources?

[maggsmaggs]

They are not fantasy baseball rules.

 

It is market-value. And since the White Sox operate under a finite budget, that absolutely applies to us.

 

Is the goal not to try and optimize our resources?

All of this moving Beckham is predicated on having a sound option at third base, which we currently don't. Viciedo won't be a third baseman, most likely, and Brent Morel still has a long way to go. With our finite resources, it makes sense to keep Beckham/Alexei/Getz as our infielders for awhile because paying $10 million for a third baseman isn't economically smart when you have Beckham entrenched there. As well, spending at second base isn't smart when Getz is going to get better and is pretty good already.. Also, Gordon likely will become a very good third baseball, given a year or two full-time at the position, that is worth a lot in its own right.

Edited August 3, 2009 by maggsmaggs